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[Cuddlezarro]

I find it funny how I told some one not to bash leliena in this topic sinc eit might draw all her fans here when I already did a massive rant about how she pissed me off and that i dont like her at all in this topic a while back

[Jaulen]

*waits for justifying Leliana thread*

It all comes down to (for me at least) how a person can 'justify' Leliana, but not Zevran.

When I think about how admantly anti-Zevran some people are, but yet okay with Leliana it makes me think that they are either homophobic or are okay with the idea of 'girl on girl' action but not 'guy on guy'. Or, now I know this may be getting personal for some, they maye have issues in their own personal lives with male-female interpersonal relationships/sex/power struggle. Or are imposing modern moral standards on fictional characters in a fictional world, and in any case can't imagine role-playing any differently.

Which is their choice, but I would find rather...boring, not playing different characters/personalities, and being able to 'justify' any or all the PCs. Becuase when you get right down to it, what's the justification for Morrigan? Shale? Sten?

Wynne And Ogrhen I could possibly see justifying as companions since you are wandering around collecting treaties and they happen to belong to two of the treaty groups.

[jenovan]

Hmm, been watching this topic of discussion for two days now, and something just occurred to me that might be more appropriate for this thread -- IF anyone wants to talk about it anymore. ;D  (Getting a bit weary of it myself, but mostly because of the arguing..)

The Zevran-as-rapist idea is coming from his two stories, yes? The mage and the woman with the poem.  The assumption seems to be that they have sex with him in hopes that he won't kill them, making it coercion.  These are the only two specific stories Zevran tells involving sex with victims, and in both, the victims (from my view, anyway) are the ones to try to seduce him to save their skins.  Why would they offer that? 

My possible answers I can think of at the moment:

Sex is such a well-known part of the Crow toolkit that it's the first counter a victim comes up with. (Although the success rate couldn't possibly be that high!)

Orrr... possibly Zevran was admiring them in a way that made them think he desired them. (Sounds like it could be true in the case of the mage, hard to tell about the other woman, although he didn't sound very enthusiastic about that one...)

Discuss? XD

These two cases seem to be separate from the idea of seducing a target to get to them, which I would have thought would be more standard operating procedure.  And he doesn't explicitly tell any stories like that, although he mentions it as a "sound tactical choice".

(As a side note, I personally interpret the story about the woman with the poem that way: he shows up to kill her, she tries to seduce him, he pretends to be swayed, then he kills her.  It never occurred to me that she was resigned to death -- she was still thinking she could get out of this somehow.)

Sorry if this seems to be rather randomly strung together, going on 5 days with about 15 hours of sleep total here

Modifié par jenovan, 26 février 2010 - 07:36 .

[ejoslin]

The thing is, you're right, they're offering sex in exchange for their lives; he's not threatening them to have sex. They know they're going to die -- the crows WILL get them, and if not Zevran, then someone else. Which makes me think they're using sex to try to get him on their side -- to save them from the crows perhaps. The first one, she was able to sway him. The second one, she was not.

[Ramante]

Jaulen wrote...

Okay, here's the fanfic addy *hands tissues around*

http://www.fanfictio...t_Price_Victory

Edit: Dang, I shouldn't have read the ending again, now I'm crying. *sigh* makes it so hard to read lab data through tears!

This was the most depressing fanfic I've ever seen, I'm glad I'm home alone. My parents would think I'm crazy for crying over something like this (they really don't get my obsession with DA). When I was crying my cat came to me and she just sat next to my laptop looking at me, so sweet.

Still haven't started Orzammar, Zev has 3 lockpicking skills so I'm going to start tomorrow (this time for real). I'm thinking about starting a new playthrough (again), because I want to see the 'wedding part' in the Alienage with Zev.

IRL I'm a biology student. I'm in my third year so I need 2 more years and when I'm done with that I can start my master (will take me 3 years). Not sure if the system in the Netherlands makes sense to you all, so just look at the years.

[Sabriana]

Sabriana wrote...

The most telling sentence in that conversation is when my PC is totally flabbergasted, asking in a shocked voice "You killed her anyway?" To her it was inconceivable. To her, sex was not disconnected from affection (not only to love necessarily, but she did have her fun, after all).

After hearing his answer "Of course *after* the sex. What do you think I am? A monster?" I somehow puts things in a different light for me. He has a very disconnected relationship with sex vs emotional attachment.  He sees it as pleasure.

To him, it may be equal to her last wish being able to have a last decent meal, or a bottle of good wine. There is no difference to him in that matter, and he would've most likely granted any reasonable last wish.

Meal, wine, sex - they all have one thing in common, they mean his victim wishes to enjoy something pleasurable for the last time.

Now, the woman might have had different ideas, and wanted to use it as a means to escape assassination. Perhaps she thought that she could get the time to either kill him instead, or persuade him to let her live. However, she had to know that others would follow, as it is shown, the Crows don't let go easily, even if it is a Grey Warden who has bested one of their best.

I also do not doubt that Zevran would have been summarily executed by the Crows if he failed due to whatever reason. The reason I view this as entirely possible is that Ferelden has a far more openview on sexuality than parts of even the modern western society. His "you Ferelden's are so finicky" and other remarks regarding sexuality show me, personally, that as open as Ferelden is, Antiva has an even more open view on it.

However, had it not been for the "what do you think I am, a monster" sentence, I'd be quite disturbed.  Sex means nothing to Zevran but pleasure. I don't think he would view it as coercion or even rape, as a matter of fact, I think he'd be horrified if someone suggested that. In his view of sex, he could easily have surmised that the woman was seeking one last pleasure.

To societies that still have the death penalty it's the last meal. It was customary in many societies, and maybe it still is, to ask the death canditate "Do you have a last wish?" Zevran might have thought, wrongly or right, that this is what the woman wanted as a last wish. I can even imagine that he went out of his way to make it as pleasurable as possible for  her without taking himself into consideration, just to be kind and make her last wish as enjoyable as possible.

Yeah, yeah, quoting myself again, but it seems approptiate.

[Jaulen]

CZ, my CE male liked Leliana just fine, well, he liked Morrigan too, but he fell for the whole sweet and innocent thing she had going, and decided to pull an Alisatir *la la la* when she talked about likeing the game and seduction and killing. He spared Zevran becuase he was a goody two shoes that way.



One of my CE females tried to get her to go away, but she wouldn't no matter what. So we ended up with Leliana in the group, that CE thought Leliana was crazy, although 'safe'. She spared Zevran because he could be useful and it ticked off Alistair.



My other CE female kept Leliana because she thought she was good in a fight and Maker knows we need all the help we could get, and later, thought she was cute, although a little creepy. But dumped her when she started talking about liking the 'game'. Zevran she kept alive because he interested her, and she liked to do things that seemed a little dangerous.



Not going to mention the CE who I played just to romance Zevran.



Now my DE female really didn't want Leliana with, her whole talk of visions and the maker, and she still doesn't want the crazy Chantry human female around, she's getting to the point of asking her to get lost. Zevran she kept alive becuase "Wow! An elf! Thank the Gods, now I'm not going to be stuck with all these schems."

[Cuddlezarro]

my previous comment was mor ealong the lines of "I dont want to start a flame war in this topic"



I dont hate Leliena fans but this IS the internet and flame wars arnt exactly uncommon

[jenovan]

ejoslin wrote...

The thing is, you're right, they're offering sex in exchange for their lives; he's not threatening them to have sex. They know they're going to die -- the crows WILL get them, and if not Zevran, then someone else. Which makes me think they're using sex to try to get him on their side -- to save them from the crows perhaps. The first one, she was able to sway him. The second one, she was not.

Hmm, good point -- it did work for the mage.  And I remembered that Zevran thought her messing in politics had to do with sex.  Assuming he didn't get that impression AFTER being with her (heh...), it might have been her modus operandi for getting things her way.

It didn't occur to me that the other woman might have been trying to push it that far (i.e., not just saving her skin right then, but trying to get Zevran on her side), but then, it wouldn't have worked anyway, since Zevran had already learned his lesson about such things.

[AndreaDraco]

Did I miss something? I never hear Zev saying that these marks of his exchanged sex for their lives, and I always thought that these anecdotes were more to show his sheer luck and charm than to stir moralist crusade about *rape*! Seriously?



-.-

[Sabriana]

The thing is that he did let himself be fooled by the mage. He was willing to risk all. And look how it turned out for him. She planned to disappear, and I very much doubt that it would just make him "look foolish" in the eyes of his masters. He risked all and was betrayed.

[ejoslin]

Ugh, AndreaDraco, now I'm wondering how to word this. In both stories, the women did use sex to try to convince Zevran to spare them. It worked for one, didn't work for the other.

[Sabriana]

Andrea my friend, please read my post. I am sure that this is the way it transpired. He learned his lesson from the mage. He was played for the fool, and only a strange fate made him realize it (the mage incident)

[Jaulen]

Okay, I just posted this in the 'justify Leliana thread' but:

Is it not interesting that Leliana and the marks Zevran tells stories about (woman) all use sex as a tool to get something they want? Leliana uses it to get death, Zevran's marke use it to get....well, hopefully not death.

I feel like I just had an epiphany.

I'm feeling like I'm having a "Eve as the root of all evil, poor seduced men" moment.

Modifié par Jaulen, 26 février 2010 - 08:52 .

[ejoslin]

Jaulen, I think that's the way it's meant to be looked at, rather than as rape.

Edit: Sex in many parts of the game is treated quite differently than my experience in my real world.  Even if finicky Ferelden (compared to Antiva), it's so much more casual than it is in my world, which is actually pretty liberal.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 février 2010 - 09:00 .

[Ramante]

ejoslin wrote...

Jaulen, I think that's the way it's meant to be looked at, rather than as rape.

I'm pretty sure it is not meant as rape (for both Zevran and Leliana). The way Zevran tells his stories you get the idea that he only did it to make the last hours of his victims nice hours. He makes it quite clear that he did it for their pleasure and not for his own (though I'm sure he enjoyed it).
Leliana tells Alistair that there are worse ways than spending your last hours with a beautiful woman. The way she says that I don't think she was forcing her victims to sleep with her. I assume that (like in our society) men look different to sex than woman. When it comes to sex men are most of the time easier then woman.

One big difference between Zevran and Leliana is that Zevran enjoyes the killing itself (certain artistry in sinking your blade into someone's flesh) where Leliana loves the foreplay. I know Leliana liked the killing but she just won't admit it to the Warden accept when she is hardened. Because of this I find Zevran more trustworthy because from the moment you met him he speaks the truth.

I apologize for using then/than wrong, when I'm typing/writing I sometimes totally forget when to use which one. ^^'

Modifié par Ramante, 26 février 2010 - 09:13 .

[Sabriana]

Nobody pays attention to me. Lol

And now I'm a douche bag according to a pretender in my thread. This is hilarious. I stand by my evaluation as I said in my post. He is doing her a favor in his mind. She asked him, for whatever reason, and he obliged. What was in her mind no one knows, but learned from his mistake with the mage.

[AndreaDraco]

ejoslin wrote...

Ugh, AndreaDraco, now I'm wondering how to word this. In both stories, the women did use sex to try to convince Zevran to spare them. It worked for one, didn't work for the other.

No, no. I see the point, but I disagree. The mage tricked him, seduced him as much as he was trying to seduce her. I disagree with the concept that he used sex in an abusive manner and took advantage of her. The other story is another matter, but even that one... I never felt like he was abusing his marks.

Sabriana wrote...

Andrea my friend, please read my post.
I am sure that this is the way it transpired. He learned his lesson
from the mage. He was played for the fool, and only a strange fate made
him realize it (the mage incident)

I agree with your sentiment, but I cannot help but think that many people in the 'justifying' thread are just reading way, way, way too much into it.

[ejoslin]

AndreaDraco wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Ugh, AndreaDraco, now I'm wondering how to word this. In both stories, the women did use sex to try to convince Zevran to spare them. It worked for one, didn't work for the other.

No, no. I see the point, but I disagree. The mage tricked him, seduced him as much as he was trying to seduce her. I disagree with the concept that he used sex in an abusive manner and took advantage of her. The other story is another matter, but even that one... I never felt like he was abusing his marks.

Nono, I don't think he was either.  I NEVER got that impression.  I got the impression that his marks were using sex as a tool.  They know what's up, and what better way to get out of it than to try to seduce your assassin and make him vulnerable?  

Gah, I just can't put this into words properly, and it's so inflammatory I probably should stop trying.

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 février 2010 - 09:30 .

[AndreaDraco]

Exactly. I can't understand why no one is seeing that they were playing as much as Zevran. He is no innocent, of course, but nothing in his adventure ever portrayed him like an insensitive man, an abusive one or let alone a rapist. I find the very thought ridiculous!

[Ramante]

Sabriana wrote...

Nobody pays attention to me. Lol
And now I'm a douche bag according to a pretender in my thread. This is hilarious. I stand by my evaluation as I said in my post. He is doing her a favor in his mind. She asked him, for whatever reason, and he obliged. What was in her mind no one knows, but learned from his mistake with the mage.

I've read your post, just didn't have anything better to do than write it down myself.

I think certain people are way overreacting in your thread, they attack you for opening a thread about Leliana because they don't want her to be attacked. Though questioning Zevran is allowed because what he does is totally wrong.

[Jaulen]

ejoslin wrote...

AndreaDraco wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Ugh, AndreaDraco, now I'm wondering how to word this. In both stories, the women did use sex to try to convince Zevran to spare them. It worked for one, didn't work for the other.

No, no. I see the point, but I disagree. The mage tricked him, seduced him as much as he was trying to seduce her. I disagree with the concept that he used sex in an abusive manner and took advantage of her. The other story is another matter, but even that one... I never felt like he was abusing his marks.

Nono, I don't think he was either.  I NEVER got that impression.  I got the impression that his marks were using sex as a tool.  They know what's up, and what better way to get out of it than to try to seduce your assassin and make him vulnerable?  

Gah, I just can't put this into words properly, and it's so inflammatory I probably should stop trying.

YES!

If I was an assassian's mark (especially if I was an attractive and/or powerful woman (and most of these are used to getting their way)) I would be thinking "Hmm, let's get the assassian in bed." with the thought of one of possible outcomes
1) He'd be so overcome by my charms that he would decide not to kill me
2) maybe he's fall asleep afterwards, and before killing me, so I could sneak off
3) Maybe he'd fall asleep afterwards, and before killing me, so I could kill him first
4) Maybe I could make it loud enough/long enough that someone would come to see what's up, rescue me, and kill the would be assassian

[Creature 1]

That would never occur to me. Let's see: get killed vs. get raped and killed--I know which I pick!

[Rhinna]

Hmmm...I  never got the impression that Zevran was doing his victims a favor by giving them a last "roll in the hay" to make their final moments more pleasurable before he killed them.

I guess everyone has their own interpretation.

My take on it is this:  Zevran spoke of how sex was an integral part of being a Crow - that elves were viewed as attractive to humans, and it was an asset for him.  He always equated sex with business - and you might as well make it as pleasurable as possible.  I think he used sex/seduction to get to his victims - to lull them into a false sense of security - to catch them at a vulnerable moment (like his first mark he took the earring from), and maybe perhaps to make their final moments more pleasurable, since he did express some regret.  I don't ever think anyone tried to 'buy' their life for sex, i.e. "rape".

The mage might have had some suspicions, because Zevran was young and inexperienced.  The other woman was (to me) obviously a "cougar" *grins* who perhaps had experiences with Zevran before, and wished to taste them again - hence the bad poem.  It just happened (coincidentally) that she was now a "mark".  Antivan society thrived on assassinations - but they had to be done with finesse.  Perhaps Zevran seduced her, and lulled her into a false sense of security before he completed the deed - it would seem an Antivan way of doing things.

Modifié par Rhinna, 26 février 2010 - 09:39 .

[Ramante]

Creature 1 wrote...

That would never occur to me. Let's see: get killed vs. get raped and killed--I know which I pick!

The fact that the woman would think 'let's get the assassin in bed.' is reason enough to think about the whole thing as not getting raped. It would be her idea to start with.