35177 réponses à ce sujet

[sjachdarastrix]

Sabriana, just read your fic and I thought it was really good too^^ poor Zev thats what happend to him my first playthrough minus the bad equipment cause I update everyone whenever I go to camp... which my first playthrough was like twice because I didn't know about that until waaay later in the game-_- I never played a bioware game or any game with camp before sooo yeah...

[TripLight]

Creature 1 wrote...

TripLight wrote...
Considering Leliana And Zevran seducing their targets, just my two cents (nothing noteworthy), it's the "double standard" to the extreme. I never saw what Zevran did with those two targets as rape, and I don't think he is capable of such a thing either. Sure he may flirt unabashedly, but he NEVER pushes the boundary beyond it, he knows where the line is drawn.

Yes, he may kill you, but he does it politely. 

Well he is an assassin:ph34r:, lol. And Leliana, from what I understand did so too.

But then again, this is a medieval (and fantastically made-up) world we are talking about, and many of us are judging it by modern standards, which is pretty redundant.

But again, there are my own opinions.

[EccentricSage]

AndreaDraco wrote...

Again the word 'raped'. Unless raping someone means something entirely different here in Italy, Zevran DID NOT RAPE ANYONE. He didn't beat those women, he didn't force them to have sex with him. They seduced him both times. They tried to take advantage of him to take advantage of the situation. Were they victims? No. Was he a victim? No.

Rape very well may mean something diferent in Italy than America...  Here a guy can have sex with his girlfriend who said yes, but was drunk, and she can turn around and acuse him of rape the next day because she regreted it.  It's all about who has the better lawyers.  They should make a country like that in DA.  lol

In all seriousness, the fighting is about the concept of 'statutory rape', and I think people realy extend the definition and use of this term a bit too far.  I think they also forget that American laws aply to America... not other countries, and not fantasy worlds.  *shakes head*

[Raiynsong]

If we're going to talk morality than what about the Tranquil ? what about addicting the templars to lyrium ? The world of Ferelden isn't a world I'd consider moral in many, many ways. We need to judge the people in it by its own internal standards.

[EccentricSage]

Creature 1 wrote...

That would never occur to me. Let's see: get killed vs. get raped and killed--I know which I pick!

I guess it's a matter of perspective.  I wouldn't see it as raped, I'd see it as sex.  So I'd have the sex.  I would choose not to see myself as the victim if there is any way out.  Hell... I don't like the idea of seeing myself as a victim no matter the outcome.  And if there is no way out, then... well... that's all she wrote.

Sabriana wrote...

*Cuddles with her pals*

Sorry,
but the double standard pisses me off. The more I read about it, the
angrier I get. Girl on girl is so fine, but a man loving another man is
bad.. Gah. I am so glad to be German..

We get to cudle?  I feal warm fuzzies. 

Shame I was at work when all this started.  I could have tried to traumatize people on the Justify Zevran thread sooner.  Will check out Lel thread... though totaly don't want to... I'll just link them to my existing 'why I can't stand lel' posts.  Seriously.  And I WANT to like her so bad.  I DID like her at first.  Which only made me hate her more when the 'baaaaaw I was a bad person and liked it untill I was betraaaaayed' crap started. 

OOOH!  I just read your fic.  Nicely done. 

sjachdarastrix wrote...

is this thread gonna turn into
how Sex is a way bigger issue than it should be?XD I should so post a
link to the dudes blog I mentioned earlier... he makes really good
points and is trying to get people to open up about sex and stuff... I
am soo glad that where I am in Vermont the whole gay thing isn't an
issue, one of my teachers is gay and married to another guy who works
here actually, and they both rock hahaXD

I'd like a link.    And I agree.  It's so funny because I doubt very many of the judgemental or anal retentative people who make such a big fuss about things are lacking their own secret fantasies and kinks.  Every one puts on their mask for the social masquarade.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 27 février 2010 - 07:22 .

[Jewsapalewsa]

Nothing

[Sabriana]

Thanks everyone, I was quite hesitant to post it, but I am glad you like the little blurb.
As for the 'rape' thing, I shall quote myself once again to show my view of it. I will never cast aside another person's opinion about issues, but I will voice my own.

I wrote earlier...

The most telling sentence in that conversation is when my PC is totally flabbergasted, asking in a shocked voice "You killed her anyway?" To her it was inconceivable. To her, sex was not disconnected from affection (not only to love necessarily, but she did have her fun, after all).

After hearing his answer "Of course *after* the sex. What do you think I am? A monster?" I somehow puts things in a different light for me. He has a very disconnected relationship with sex vs emotional attachment.  He sees it as pleasure.

To him, it may be equal to her last wish being able to have a last decent meal, or a bottle of good wine. There is no difference to him in that matter, and he would've most likely granted any reasonable last wish.

Meal, wine, sex - they all have one thing in common, they mean his victim wishes to enjoy something pleasurable for the last time.

Now, the woman might have had different ideas, and wanted to use it as a means to escape assassination. Perhaps she thought that she could get the time to either kill him instead, or persuade him to let her live. However, she had to know that others would follow, as it is shown, the Crows don't let go easily, even if it is a Grey Warden who has bested one of their best.

I also do not doubt that Zevran would have been summarily executed by the Crows if he failed due to whatever reason. The reason I view this as entirely possible is that Ferelden has a far more openview on sexuality than parts of even the modern western society. His "you Ferelden's are so finicky" and other remarks regarding sexuality show me, personally, that as open as Ferelden is, Antiva has an even more open view on it.

However, had it not been for the "what do you think I am, a monster" sentence, I'd be quite disturbed.  Sex means nothing to Zevran but pleasure. I don't think he would view it as coercion or even rape, as a matter of fact, I think he'd be horrified if someone suggested that. In his view of sex, he could easily have surmised that the woman was seeking one last pleasure.

To societies that still have the death penalty it's the last meal. It was customary in many societies, and maybe it still is, to ask the death candidate "Do you have a last wish?" Zevran might have thought, wrongly or right, that this is what the woman wanted as a last wish. I can even imagine that he went out of his way to make it as pleasurable as possible for  her without taking himself into consideration, just to be kind and make her last wish as enjoyable as possible.

Edited for clean up. Cause I'm a clean person

Modifié par Sabriana, 27 février 2010 - 09:48 .

[Jewsapalewsa]

[quote]Sabriana wrote...


However, had it not been for the "what do you think I am, a monster" sentence, I'd be quite disturbed.  Sex means nothing to Zevran but pleasure. I don't think he would view it as coercion or even rape, as a matter of fact, I think he'd be horrified if someone suggested that. In his view of sex, he could easily have surmised that the woman was seeking one last pleasure.

To societies that still have the death penalty it's the last meal. It was customary in many societies, and maybe it still is, to ask the death candidate "Do you have a last wish?" Zevran might have thought, wrongly or right, that this is what the woman wanted as a last wish. I can even imagine that he went out of his way to make it as pleasurable as possible for  her without taking himself into consideration, just to be kind and make her last wish as enjoyable as possible.[/quote]

Edited for clean up. Cause I'm a clean person

[/quote]


That sounds like quite a stretch

[EccentricSage]

Jewsapalewsa wrote...

Sabriana wrote...


However, had it not been for the "what do you think I am, a monster" sentence, I'd be quite disturbed.  Sex means nothing to Zevran but pleasure. I don't think he would view it as coercion or even rape, as a matter of fact, I think he'd be horrified if someone suggested that. In his view of sex, he could easily have surmised that the woman was seeking one last pleasure.

To societies that still have the death penalty it's the last meal. It was customary in many societies, and maybe it still is, to ask the death candidate "Do you have a last wish?" Zevran might have thought, wrongly or right, that this is what the woman wanted as a last wish. I can even imagine that he went out of his way to make it as pleasurable as possible for  her without taking himself into consideration, just to be kind and make her last wish as enjoyable as possible.

Edited for clean up. Cause I'm a clean person

That sounds like quite a stretch

If you get to know Zevran, and more about Antiva, it's not mutch of a stretch at all.  in fact, less of a stretch than him raping them.  This isn't some modern country with a justice system of wich we are speeking. 

[Jewsapalewsa]

EccentricSage wrote...

Jewsapalewsa wrote...

Sabriana wrote...


However, had it not been for the "what do you think I am, a monster" sentence, I'd be quite disturbed.  Sex means nothing to Zevran but pleasure. I don't think he would view it as coercion or even rape, as a matter of fact, I think he'd be horrified if someone suggested that. In his view of sex, he could easily have surmised that the woman was seeking one last pleasure.

To societies that still have the death penalty it's the last meal. It was customary in many societies, and maybe it still is, to ask the death candidate "Do you have a last wish?" Zevran might have thought, wrongly or right, that this is what the woman wanted as a last wish. I can even imagine that he went out of his way to make it as pleasurable as possible for  her without taking himself into consideration, just to be kind and make her last wish as enjoyable as possible.

Edited for clean up. Cause I'm a clean person

That sounds like quite a stretch

If you get to know Zevran, and more about Antiva, it's not mutch of a stretch at all.  in fact, less of a stretch than him raping them.  This isn't some modern country with a justice system of wich we are speeking. 

You don't need a modern justice system to know that rape is bad.  That is, for me, a pretty big constant, bigger than avogadro's number even(little nerd humor there).  And putting someone in a possition where thaey can take it up the poop chute or die is tantamount to rape in my book.

[Sabriana]

She would die either way. The Crows don't take prisoners. Their political cloud is bigger than the powers of the ruling monarch. They're not a piddly little crew, they are the reason that Antiva needs no standing army.

Zevran clearly states that she recited the poem to try and get away from being assassinated. Her reprieve would most likely have been very temporary. The poem in itself is telling enough. It's sex poetry, and he didn't recite it to her, she recited it to him.

No one can fault the woman to pull out all stops to keep her life, even seducing her assassin. He just didn't fall for it, that's all. He learned his lesson after his second mission, where he was more than willing to plead for his target's life. Only to learn that she planned to deceive him. His life would've been worth less than nothing had that actually happened. Only fate prevented his death back then.

[ejoslin]

Heh, it's totally not a stretch. It's one of the ways, maybe the most obvious way, that Zevran changes (edit: if romanced); he connects sex and love. If you get to know him, you learn that he thinks of sex as completely about pleasure -- it's how he was taught.

This is a society where child prostitution, with VERY young children, is considered ok (Zevran was taught about sex and how to pleasure people in the ****house, which he left when he was 7). Slavery is out in the open. Murder happens so frequently, the people who live in Antiva never know when the streets are going to start flowing red with blood. Even the HNF's (Antivan) sister-in-law makes a joke about how Antivan women kill with poison and kindness.

It's a different world with far different standards. That sex is used, by men and women, as both a way for pleasure and a tool is pretty obvious.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 février 2010 - 12:22 .

[EccentricSage]

Jewsapalewsa wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

Jewsapalewsa wrote...

Sabriana wrote...


However, had it not been for the "what do you think I am, a monster" sentence, I'd be quite disturbed.  Sex means nothing to Zevran but pleasure. I don't think he would view it as coercion or even rape, as a matter of fact, I think he'd be horrified if someone suggested that. In his view of sex, he could easily have surmised that the woman was seeking one last pleasure.

To societies that still have the death penalty it's the last meal. It was customary in many societies, and maybe it still is, to ask the death candidate "Do you have a last wish?" Zevran might have thought, wrongly or right, that this is what the woman wanted as a last wish. I can even imagine that he went out of his way to make it as pleasurable as possible for  her without taking himself into consideration, just to be kind and make her last wish as enjoyable as possible.

Edited for clean up. Cause I'm a clean person

That sounds like quite a stretch

If you get to know Zevran, and more about Antiva, it's not mutch of a stretch at all.  in fact, less of a stretch than him raping them.  This isn't some modern country with a justice system of wich we are speeking. 

You don't need a modern justice system to know that rape is bad.  That is, for me, a pretty big constant, bigger than avogadro's number even(little nerd humor there).  And putting someone in a possition where thaey can take it up the poop chute or die is tantamount to rape in my book.

1) There was no rape, is the argument being made here
2) There was no reference to the manner of sex, merely the intent to give pleasure.
3) His 'victims' were willingly involved in Antivan politics.  That someone might have them marked was a risk they knew they were taking, and sex was likely part of 'the game' for BOTH sides.  We aren't necasarily talking about inocents, and we aren't talking about someone who kills for the sake of killing. 

But if you insist upon taking things out of context and being vulgar in doing so, I see no reason to humor you any further, as I would be feeding a troll under such circumstance.

[Jewsapalewsa]

EccentricSage wrote...

Jewsapalewsa wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

Jewsapalewsa wrote...

Sabriana wrote...


However, had it not been for the "what do you think I am, a monster" sentence, I'd be quite disturbed.  Sex means nothing to Zevran but pleasure. I don't think he would view it as coercion or even rape, as a matter of fact, I think he'd be horrified if someone suggested that. In his view of sex, he could easily have surmised that the woman was seeking one last pleasure.

To societies that still have the death penalty it's the last meal. It was customary in many societies, and maybe it still is, to ask the death candidate "Do you have a last wish?" Zevran might have thought, wrongly or right, that this is what the woman wanted as a last wish. I can even imagine that he went out of his way to make it as pleasurable as possible for  her without taking himself into consideration, just to be kind and make her last wish as enjoyable as possible.

Edited for clean up. Cause I'm a clean person

That sounds like quite a stretch

If you get to know Zevran, and more about Antiva, it's not mutch of a stretch at all.  in fact, less of a stretch than him raping them.  This isn't some modern country with a justice system of wich we are speeking. 

You don't need a modern justice system to know that rape is bad.  That is, for me, a pretty big constant, bigger than avogadro's number even(little nerd humor there).  And putting someone in a possition where thaey can take it up the poop chute or die is tantamount to rape in my book.

1) There was no rape, is the argument being made here
2) There was no reference to the manner of sex, merely the intent to give pleasure.
3) His 'victims' were willingly involved in Antivan politics.  That someone might have them marked was a risk they knew they were taking, and sex was likely part of 'the game' for BOTH sides.  We aren't necasarily talking about inocents, and we aren't talking about someone who kills for the sake of killing. 

But if you insist upon taking things out of context and being vulgar in doing so, I see no reason to humor you any further, as I would be feeding a troll under such circumstance.

I was joking and keeping things light hearted I assumed everyobne on this topic kinda signed on for mature language and context after staying one the board after reading the original post mentioning sex, murder, torture, and all kinds of other goodies.  I didn't think that "poop chute" would really offend anyone that much.  If you are that easily offended, than that is not pasrt of your personality, and it doesn't makes me a troll any more than it make you one.  It was a joke.  Lighten up. 

And I believe that I took nothing out of context.  That is your opinion, and just because we have opposing opinions doesn't make one of us trolls.  We are just people with differing opinions.

Modifié par Jewsapalewsa, 27 février 2010 - 01:57 .

[Jewsapalewsa]

ejoslin wrote...

Heh, it's totally not a stretch. It's one of the ways, maybe the most obvious way, that Zevran changes (edit: if romanced); he connects sex and love. If you get to know him, you learn that he thinks of sex as completely about pleasure -- it's how he was taught.

This is a society where child prostitution, with VERY young children, is considered ok (Zevran was taught about sex and how to pleasure people in the ****house, which he left when he was 7). Slavery is out in the open. Murder happens so frequently, the people who live in Antiva never know when the streets are going to start flowing red with blood. Even the HNF's (Antivan) sister-in-law makes a joke about how Antivan women kill with poison and kindness.

It's a different world with far different standards. That sex is used, by men and women, as both a way for pleasure and a tool is pretty obvious.

Just because society as a whole is completely morally bankrupt doesn't mean that I have to jump into the murderin, rapin, child sexin pile.  I personally liked to hold my character to a higher moral standard, and I believed that Zevran violated this standard in too many ways for me to trust or really befriend him. 

[Jewsapalewsa]

Sabriana wrote...

She would die either way. The Crows don't take prisoners. Their political cloud is bigger than the powers of the ruling monarch. They're not a piddly little crew, they are the reason that Antiva needs no standing army.
Zevran clearly states that she recited the poem to try and get away from being assassinated. Her reprieve would most likely have been very temporary. The poem in itself is telling enough. It's sex poetry, and he didn't recite it to her, she recited it to him.
No one can fault the woman to pull out all stops to keep her life, even seducing her assassin. He just didn't fall for it, that's all. He learned his lesson after his second mission, where he was more than willing to plead for his target's life. Only to learn that she planned to deceive him. His life would've been worth less than nothing had that actually happened. Only fate prevented his death back then.

Because he worked for an evil orginazation that doesn't take prisoners doesn't make his actions any less repulsive.

And I don't blame the girl for wanting to deceive the assassin that was going to murder her.

[ejoslin]

Jewsapalewsa wrote...

I was joking and keeping things light hearted I assumed everyobne on this topic kinda signed on for mature language and context when staying one board after reading the original post mentioning sex, murder, torture, and all kinds of other goodies.  I didn't think that poop chute would really pffend anyone that much.  If you are that easily offended, than that is not pasrt of your personality, and it doesn't make me a troll any more than it make you one.  It was a joke.  Lighten up. 

Well, you ARE trolling, but that's beside the point.  There actually is a thread on the front page dedicated to discussing "Is Zevran a rapist" so posting in a thread that is dedicated to discussing Zevran as a romance partner (in a positive way) comes across as looking for a fight.

ES isn't a troll because she is pretty established in this thread and has contributed on topic and I may add quite insightfully here.

I tell you though, my nose still is burning from the hot coffee I spit out over the Voice of God's comment in the other thread . . .

Edit: I want to add that if you don't like Zevran, that's fine.  If you choose to see things the way you state them, that's fine as well.  People definitely need to play the game as they see fit.  Other people view things differently.  I'm certainly not out to convince anyone that my interpretation of a character is right and theirs is wrong -- because obviously, there is no right and wrong here.  It's all interpretation.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 février 2010 - 02:08 .

[Jewsapalewsa]

ejoslin wrote...

Jewsapalewsa wrote...

I was joking and keeping things light hearted I assumed everyobne on this topic kinda signed on for mature language and context when staying one board after reading the original post mentioning sex, murder, torture, and all kinds of other goodies.  I didn't think that poop chute would really pffend anyone that much.  If you are that easily offended, than that is not pasrt of your personality, and it doesn't make me a troll any more than it make you one.  It was a joke.  Lighten up. 

Well, you ARE trolling, but that's beside the point.  There actually is a thread on the front page dedicated to discussing "Is Zevran a rapist" so posting in a thread that is dedicated to discussing Zevran as a romance partner (in a positive way) comes across as looking for a fight.

ES isn't a troll because she is pretty established in this thread and has contributed on topic and I may add quite insightfully here.

I tell you though, my nose still is burning from the hot coffee I spit out over the Voice of God's comment in the other thread . . .

Edit: I want to add that if you don't like Zevran, that's fine.  If you choose to see things the way you state them, that's fine as well.  People definitely need to play the game as they see fit.  Other people view things differently.  I'm certainly not out to convince anyone that my interpretation of a character is right and theirs is wrong -- because obviously, there is no right and wrong here.  It's all interpretation. 

I suppose that makes you a troll for having a differnt opinion from me.  By your logic, anyone who goes into a thread that isn't completely on track with their opinions is a troll, because posting opposing opinions as "comes across as looking for a fight."  You people really do throw the word troll around like hotcakes.  If I wanted to troll, I would not be stating my opinions in a reasonable manner, I wouldn't use logic either.  If I just wanted to get a rise, I would say outrageously offensive things, then list fallacious facts to back up my claims to offend as many people as possible.  I am simply stating my opinion, which is counter to the majority of this thread.  That, in no way in itse;f makes me a troll. 

And one question:  At what point did "ES' get established enough to not be a troll anymore.  Because if being established in a thread is required to not be a troll, then everyones first posting is the post of a troll.  And I asssume she has been more insiteful in your opinion because, quite simply, she shares your opinion, and anyone who holds an opinion counter to the majority of the thread(or maybe just you) are a troll.

By the way, the original post of this topic was actually about Zevran's lack of riomantic appeal, and OP was curious what other people thought.  I think he has none because of my opinions on him.  That is a perfectly valid response to his post.

Modifié par Jewsapalewsa, 27 février 2010 - 02:24 .

[ejoslin]

Jewsapalewsa wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Jewsapalewsa wrote...

I was joking and keeping things light hearted I assumed everyobne on this topic kinda signed on for mature language and context when staying one board after reading the original post mentioning sex, murder, torture, and all kinds of other goodies.  I didn't think that poop chute would really pffend anyone that much.  If you are that easily offended, than that is not pasrt of your personality, and it doesn't make me a troll any more than it make you one.  It was a joke.  Lighten up. 

Well, you ARE trolling, but that's beside the point.  There actually is a thread on the front page dedicated to discussing "Is Zevran a rapist" so posting in a thread that is dedicated to discussing Zevran as a romance partner (in a positive way) comes across as looking for a fight.

ES isn't a troll because she is pretty established in this thread and has contributed on topic and I may add quite insightfully here.

I tell you though, my nose still is burning from the hot coffee I spit out over the Voice of God's comment in the other thread . . .

Edit: I want to add that if you don't like Zevran, that's fine.  If you choose to see things the way you state them, that's fine as well.  People definitely need to play the game as they see fit.  Other people view things differently.  I'm certainly not out to convince anyone that my interpretation of a character is right and theirs is wrong -- because obviously, there is no right and wrong here.  It's all interpretation. 

I suppose that makes you a troll for having a differnt opinion from me.  By your logic, anyone who goes into a thread that isn't completely on track with their opinions is a troll, because posting opposing opinions as "comes across as looking for a fight."  You people really do throw the word troll around like hotcakes.  If I wanted to troll, I would not be stating my opinions in a reasonable manner, I wouldn't use logic either.  If I just wanted to get a rise, I would say outrageously offensive things, then list fallacious facts to back up my claims to offend as many people as possible.  I am simply stating my opinion, which is counter to the majority of this thread.  That, in no way in itse;f makes me a troll. 

And one question:  At what point did "ES' get established enough to not be a troll anymore.  Because if being established in a thread is required to not be a troll, then everyones first posting is the post of a troll.  And I asssume she has been more insiteful in your opinion because, quite simply, she shares your opinion, and anyone who holds an opinion counter to the majority of the thread(or maybe just you) are a troll.

Edit: I will actually give this a reasonable answer.  Editing it now.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 février 2010 - 02:26 .

[Jewsapalewsa]

ejoslin wrote...

Jewsapalewsa wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Jewsapalewsa wrote...

I was joking and keeping things light hearted I assumed everyobne on this topic kinda signed on for mature language and context when staying one board after reading the original post mentioning sex, murder, torture, and all kinds of other goodies.  I didn't think that poop chute would really pffend anyone that much.  If you are that easily offended, than that is not pasrt of your personality, and it doesn't make me a troll any more than it make you one.  It was a joke.  Lighten up. 

Well, you ARE trolling, but that's beside the point.  There actually is a thread on the front page dedicated to discussing "Is Zevran a rapist" so posting in a thread that is dedicated to discussing Zevran as a romance partner (in a positive way) comes across as looking for a fight.

ES isn't a troll because she is pretty established in this thread and has contributed on topic and I may add quite insightfully here.

I tell you though, my nose still is burning from the hot coffee I spit out over the Voice of God's comment in the other thread . . .

Edit: I want to add that if you don't like Zevran, that's fine.  If you choose to see things the way you state them, that's fine as well.  People definitely need to play the game as they see fit.  Other people view things differently.  I'm certainly not out to convince anyone that my interpretation of a character is right and theirs is wrong -- because obviously, there is no right and wrong here.  It's all interpretation. 

I suppose that makes you a troll for having a differnt opinion from me.  By your logic, anyone who goes into a thread that isn't completely on track with their opinions is a troll, because posting opposing opinions as "comes across as looking for a fight."  You people really do throw the word troll around like hotcakes.  If I wanted to troll, I would not be stating my opinions in a reasonable manner, I wouldn't use logic either.  If I just wanted to get a rise, I would say outrageously offensive things, then list fallacious facts to back up my claims to offend as many people as possible.  I am simply stating my opinion, which is counter to the majority of this thread.  That, in no way in itse;f makes me a troll. 

And one question:  At what point did "ES' get established enough to not be a troll anymore.  Because if being established in a thread is required to not be a troll, then everyones first posting is the post of a troll.  And I asssume she has been more insiteful in your opinion because, quite simply, she shares your opinion, and anyone who holds an opinion counter to the majority of the thread(or maybe just you) are a troll.

*sigh* I fed it, didn't I.  My apologies!

Edit:alrighty, waiting on you.

Modifié par Jewsapalewsa, 27 février 2010 - 02:28 .

[ejoslin]

Jewsapalewsa wrote...


I just countered your entire arguement with pure and simple logic, and I'm the troll.  You know, it is a tactic of particularly smart trolls to accuse everyone else of being a troll.  I have to say, you had me going for a minute.


To quote Sabriana: Flame rejected.

No, you didn't, actually.  I will give you a reasonable response, though.  I'm not sure why I'm bothering, though.

ES and I do not agree on a lot of things -- we don't FIGHT mind you, but we do have different opinions and different perspectives.  We also treat the other's opinion and valid and we respect each other's perspective.

The difference with you is there are two threads on the front page regarding Zevran.  One of them is dedicated to discussing Zevran, in a positive way, as a romance partner.  The other is dedicated to discussing Zevran, in a negative way, as a rapist.  You are choosing, instead of posting on topic in the "Zevran is a rapist" thread, to post off-topic in the "Zevran as a romance partner," thread.

If you were discussing aspects of the romance, actual, reasonable discussion, whether or not I agreed with you, I would certainly respect what you said.

I will again say that I have no interest in changing how you view Zevran.  And I would love to see more discussion in the "Zevran is a rapist" thread about your opinion.  I'm reading that one as well, with great interest, and I'm certainly not bothered that people have your opinion -- when they discuss it there.

Edit to add: I do want to add that we actually had the "Zevran is a rapist" discussion here last week.  At least one of the regular posters in this thread agrees with that assessment; it stayed very reasonable.  Most of us view it differently, as you may have guessed, but it is possible for us to discuss this without it becoming a flame war.  However, since there is now a separate discussion going on (that none of us started), it seems more appropriate to discuss it there. Especially for some reason, it now is not staying civil.  It could be just because the people who were discussing it before were all pretty much regular posters in this thread, so it comes off as more informative than aggressive.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 février 2010 - 02:44 .

[Jewsapalewsa]

ejoslin wrote...

Jewsapalewsa wrote...


I just countered your entire arguement with pure and simple logic, and I'm the troll.  You know, it is a tactic of particularly smart trolls to accuse everyone else of being a troll.  I have to say, you had me going for a minute.


To quote Sabriana: Flame rejected.

No, you didn't, actually.  I will give you a reasonable response, though.  I'm not sure why I'm bothering, though.

ES and I do not agree on a lot of things -- we don't FIGHT mind you, but we do have different opinions and different perspectives.  We also treat the other's opinion and valid and we respect each other's perspective.

The difference with you is there are two threads on the front page regarding Zevran.  One of them is dedicated to discussing Zevran, in a positive way, as a romance partner.  The other is dedicated to discussing Zevran, in a negative way, as a rapist.  You are choosing, instead of posting on topic in the "Zevran is a rapist" thread, to post off-topic in the "Zevran as a romance partner," thread.

If you were discussing aspects of the romance, actual, reasonable discussion, whether or not I agreed with you, I would certainly respect what you said.

I will again say that I have no interest in changing how you view Zevran.  And I would love to see more discussion in the "Zevran is a rapist" thread about your opinion.  I'm reading that one as well, with great interest, and I'm certainly not bothered that people have your opinion -- when they discuss it there.

By the way, the original post of this topic was actually about Zevran's lack of
riomantic appeal, and OP was curious what other people thought.  I
think he has none because of my opinions on him.  That is a perfectly
valid response to his post. 

I am not in the habit stateing my opinion as fact, orimplying that it should be taken at face value.  I try to back up my opinion with my interpretation of the facts.  That is wh y I posted my view on Zevran as a rapist.  The OP asked for others opinions,and I gave mine.  No trolling, just a counter point. 

In the thread you keep mentioning that started with the discussion of Zevran being a rapist, you have posted your opinions, which run counter to the opinion that Zevran is a rapist.  This does mean you went"looking for a fight" it means you saw a topic that interested you, you clicked it, and gave you two sense.  No trolling, just putting in your opinion.  How is me posting my opinion on Zevran's romatioc apeal any different or more trolly. 

Don't just right me off as a troll because I have abn opposing opinion and can't be countered in a few posts. 
Niether of us are technically right, But I admit that, respect your opinions, and counter where I feel applicable.  You call me a troll, and condescedingly agree to reply to me, "not sure why (you're) bothering, though." 

You're no better than me, and niether are your opinions.  If anything, I have been the more reasonable, respectful, and less trolly one.

[ejoslin]

Jewsapalewsa wrote...

By the way, the original post of this topic was actually about Zevran's lack of
riomantic appeal, and OP was curious what other people thought.  I
think he has none because of my opinions on him.  That is a perfectly
valid response to his post. 

I am not in the habit stateing my opinion as fact, orimplying that it should be taken at face value.  I try to back up my opinion with my interpretation of the facts.  That is wh y I posted my view on Zevran as a rapist.  The OP asked for others opinions,and I gave mine.  No trolling, just a counter point. 

In the thread you keep mentioning that started with the discussion of Zevran being a rapist, you have posted your opinions, which run counter to the opinion that Zevran is a rapist.  This does mean you went"looking for a fight" it means you saw a topic that interested you, you clicked it, and gave you two sense.  No trolling, just putting in your opinion.  How is me posting my opinion on Zevran's romatioc apeal any different or more trolly. 

Don't just right me off as a troll because I have abn opposing opinion and can't be countered in a few posts. 
Niether of us are technically right, But I admit that, respect your opinions, and counter where I feel applicable.  You call me a troll, and condescedingly agree to reply to me, "not sure why (you're) bothering, though." 

You're no better than me, and niether are your opinions.  If anything, I have been the more reasonable, respectful, and less trolly one.

I never said either I or my opinions were better than you.  I'm truly not a confrontational person.  Text sometimes comes off as harsher than intended, but given your responses, I do wonder why I bothered.  I'm not trying to pick a fight or anger anyone -- life is too short for trying to do the impossible, win an internet fight!

And I am well aware of the original post -- you must have noticed I was quoted in it (an offhand, trying-to-be-humorous remark that lost a lot when taken out of context).  The OP was wondering what the romantic appeal of Zevran was because he didn't see it -- he clearly was asking enlightenment.

However, even if the poster was asking for both sides (which he clearly was NOT), after 160 pages, you must realize that this thread has taken a life on of its own.

Have a great day :innocent:

Edit: snipped excessive quoting, while still leaving in excessive quoting!

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 février 2010 - 02:58 .

[Jewsapalewsa]

ejoslin wrote...



I never said either I or my opinions were better than you.  I'm truly not a confrontational person.  Text sometimes comes off as harsher than intended, but given your responses, I do wonder why I bothered.  I'm not trying to pick a fight or anger anyone -- life is too short for trying to do the impossible, win an internet fight!

And I am well aware of the original post -- you must have noticed I was quoted in it (an offhand, trying-to-be-humorous remark that lost a lot when taken out of context).  The OP was wondering what the romantic appeal of Zevran was because he didn't see it -- he clearly was asking enlightenment.

However, even if the poster was asking for both sides (which he clearly was NOT), after 160 pages, you must realize that this thread has taken a life on of its own.

Have a great day :innocent:

Edit: snipped excessive quoting, while still leaving in excessive quoting!

I am pretty sure that you are not suggesting that all threads become masterbatory and no counter arguent be posted, as you have stated that you would respect my opinion if it was about the romance.  But I remain confused becasue I responded that I thought he had none as well(agreeing with the OP) and the stated the reasons I believed so, and yet that was trolling. 

I don't believe that an OP or anyone has to give permission to post counter arguements, which is all I've done.  

And I'm just baffled as to what you mean that the thread has taken on a life of it's own.  

[ejoslin]

Jewsapalewsa wrote...

ejoslin wrote...



I never said either I or my opinions were better than you.  I'm truly not a confrontational person.  Text sometimes comes off as harsher than intended, but given your responses, I do wonder why I bothered.  I'm not trying to pick a fight or anger anyone -- life is too short for trying to do the impossible, win an internet fight!

And I am well aware of the original post -- you must have noticed I was quoted in it (an offhand, trying-to-be-humorous remark that lost a lot when taken out of context).  The OP was wondering what the romantic appeal of Zevran was because he didn't see it -- he clearly was asking enlightenment.

However, even if the poster was asking for both sides (which he clearly was NOT), after 160 pages, you must realize that this thread has taken a life on of its own.

Have a great day :innocent:

Edit: snipped excessive quoting, while still leaving in excessive quoting!

I am pretty sure that you are not suggesting that all threads become masterbatory and no counter arguent be posted, as you have stated that you would respect my opinion if it was about the romance.  But I remain confused becasue I responded that I thought he had none as well(agreeing with the OP) and the stated the reasons I believed so, and yet that was trolling. 

I don't believe that an OP or anyone has to give permission to post counter arguements, which is all I've done.  

And I'm just baffled as to what you mean that the thread has taken on a life of it's own.  

There are a lot of differing opinions here.  I guess I cannot articulate this well (I'm not that good a writer, I am learning).

I say you are trolling because you are coming off as very confrontational, and posting really off topic when there is another thread dedicated to what you want to discuss on the front page.  I'm not sure how much clearer I can be about this.

And what I mean by a life of its own, if you read even three pages back, you'd see that the discussion that is going on here is, for the most part, different aspects of the Zevran romance.  Not whether he is appealing or not, but why he IS appealing as a romance partner, and moments we like best.  So you share the OP's opinion, he was not looking for echoes -- he was wondering what men and women see in him.  But even if he were just starting a "let's bash Zevran" thread, it has become a Zevran-squee thread.

I don't think I can be any more clear than this.  If you cannot understand what I am saying, it probably is because you're not willing to try.  I won't argue this with you, and if you want to post all the reasons you think Zevran is a rapist here, I certainly can't stop you.  But you'd get more people who agree with you in the other thread for sure -- I don't think many people who aren't Zevran fans bother to read this thread.

Edit: And you'd most likely get far better discussion about it in the other thread as well.  Is this type of discussion, the one you're having here, really worth the bandwidth?  Unless you find it amusing, then it would be, of course.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 février 2010 - 03:12 .