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[Charsen]

Addai67 wrote...

Charsen wrote...

Ok, I must have totally glossed over some part in the game. Probably staring at the rogue's butt again. Who's Fiona?

You are not crazy, Fiona is in the novel The Calling.  We probably should be posting book spoiler warnings.




BOOK SPOILER WARNING



I am totally on Team Fiona for the babymama, too.  Go Fiona!  Rah rah rah!

Ohhh I see. I was thinking it was in the noble origin or something. 

So wait, there's a book?? 

[Cuddlezarro]

there are 2 books



the stolen throne which deals with Maric, Rowan and Loghain liberating ferelden, and the Calling which I cant get into spoilers but its the story that Maric lets the wardens back into ferelden it also ties into Awakening since the main antagonist in the book is in the expansion



I havnt read the first but im 1/2 way through the calling and young Duncan is awesome~

[Addai]

Random observation to get topic back on Zevran: Since I was playing around with the elf and dwarf tent scenes yesterday to compare them (it was for science!), I also was trying different responses for the after-chat. It's no surprise to any the regulars, but I was struck by Zevran's reaction to you telling him that it can't happen again. Zevran is sooo sad, even if your character barely knows him and only slept with him once. His words are saying "it doesn't matter" while his tone and face (and the approval loss) tell a very different story. No one will ever convince me that he's the Easy Lover and just out for a casual fling.

Modifié par Addai67, 02 mars 2010 - 12:10 .

[ejoslin]

I remember my first impression of his facial expression was one of relief, but I'm not sure why I thought that. Because he clearly is very sad. Then again, first time I chose that, I got an approval gain (small one, but it was there) so that may have skewed my impression.

[Nonvita]

It's always so hard for me to tell with that part because you can get *so* much approval in the pre-sex chat that it can end up positive regardless of your response afterward. Even for questioning him about love I've ended up with +16 before, despite it being rather unwelcome. Makes me wish I had the toolset to check the actual values...

[ejoslin]

Actually, it really is very sweet and very sad how much approval you get for the first tent encounter if you initiate it. You can end up with a lot of approval even asking him afterwards if it was all just part of his plan to kill you. More than you get for taking Alistair's virginity, in fact.

Edit: And then the +1 for every visit after that. 

Second edit: It's actually one of my favorite things about him.  As much as he tries to keep everything casual, it seems to mean a lot to him!

Third edit since I love edits: In my current game, just to test it, I initiated the tent scene after turning him down the first time, asked him if it was part of his plan to kill my warden, then asked him about love.  Not only did I get +13 approval, but it glitched up into love.

Oh, squee.

Hmmm, odd thing though, this only worked with approval in the 70s (I had asked him, in the initial rejection, if he was joking which is an automatic -15 approval).  When I did the exact same dialog with him in the 80s, it was only a +4 approval, and no glitch.  I wonder how that works exactly.

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 mars 2010 - 01:09 .

[Sresla]

ejoslin wrote...

And honestly, I don't have the patience to go through and get approval drops on all rejections, especially since other answers in the dialogs will adjust that final number as well.  But if anyone is willing to do that, I am willing to put that in.  Though that actually would probably be a good topic for another FAQ.  Hint hint 

You guys have got to quit quoting yourself then quoting other people and quoting yourselves again, it make quote replies quite messy!

Someone did write a dialogue guide for Zevran but only for the very best outcomes. There's also another guide on the wiki that shows a few more of the pitfalls.

[ejoslin]

my faq is better! Only because I wrote it though! Actually, I'm glad there's a dialog guide out there -- I completely do NOT have the patience for something like that. Though what gives you the "best" outcome as far as approval goes does not necessarily give the most interesting answers.

[SurrealSadi]

Oh, I love some of the more interesting responses... Like Alistair's with the rose when you ask if it's his new weapon of choice. If I romance Al, I always pick that line.



And I agree, I like ejoslin's better. Focuses on main points and shows you how to not screw up as much.

[Sresla]

Not really trying to imply it's some sort of contest between the two FAQs. I was simply passing along the information that there are several other dialogue guides out there, in case people are looking for some "exact" numbers in order to, for example, plan for a sub-71 Zevran for the Taliesin conversation.

[SurrealSadi]

Ah, good point... Hadn't thought of that...

ETA: Btw, I love your avatar... 

Modifié par SurrealSadi, 02 mars 2010 - 01:17 .

[sami jo]

sami jo wrote...

Nonvita wrote...

sami jo wrote...

David Gaider actually replied somewhere about the timeline and Allistair's age. I can't for the life of me find it now. There was an error in the initial printing of the book as well as an error in the timeline used to write some of the codex entries. I think he said that Allistair was in his late 20's, but I can't find it to confirm.

According to the timelines other people have posted that they also say DG agreed to, Alistair is either 19-20 or mid-20s, depending on maternity. So, I'd be curious to see this post, as that's quite different than everything I've heard up until now.

I'll hunt for it after I feed my boys.  They object to going hungry while I stoke my obsession.    It is entirely possible that I am remembering it incorrectly, but he did clarify the official timeline.  I'm almost positive it was in the general non-spoilers forum roughly a month to a month and a half ago if anyone else goes hunting while I'm cooking.

Found it!  It was Cailin's age I was remembering though. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/blushing.png[/smilie] 
That would put Allistair on the younger side then, which makes sense
since he hadn't taken his final vows yet.

http://social.biowar...ex/1054532&lf=8

[ejoslin]

Sresla wrote...

Not really trying to imply it's some sort of contest between the two FAQs. I was simply passing along the information that there are several other dialogue guides out there, in case people are looking for some "exact" numbers in order to, for example, plan for a sub-71 Zevran for the Taliesin conversation.

*grin* I was teasing.  They're very different. I think it IS a good thing to have the approval ratings for conversations and encounters out there.  Mine is very specific to how to navigate the romance, not how to get his approval up.  I do appreciate the links, and I will most likely use them as well. <3

Edit:

sami jo wrote...
Found it!  It was Cailin's age I was remembering though. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/blushing.png[/smilie]  
That would put Allistair on the younger side then, which makes sense 
since he hadn't taken his final vows yet.

http://social.biowar...ex/1054532&lf=8

Very interesting stuff, there.  I have a difficult time with Alistair because he looks and sounds mid-twenties, but acts late teens.

And thank you, SurrealSadi!

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 mars 2010 - 01:27 .

[sami jo]

Reading through the Allistair-Zevran dialogue on the wiki makes it even more clear that Zev did not plan to survive that encounter with the Wardens.



*Spoilers below*

* Alistair: So why would the Crows send you, Zevran?

* Zevran: Is there some reason why they should not?

* Alistair: Plenty of reasons. Starting with the fact that you weren't exactly the best they had, were you?

* Zevran: Slandar and lies. For shame, Alistair.

* Alistair: I'm not an idiot. Well, not most of the time. You're no raw recruit, but I've seen you fight. You're no master of combat, by any means.

* Zevran: Assuming that I intended a fair fight, that would indeed be a problem.

* Alistair: But the Crows must have master assassins, the way you describe them. Men with years and years of experience. Why not send them?

* Zevran: Why not, indeed? It is a mystery for the ages.

* Alistair: Oh, I get it. You're not going to tell me.

* Zevran: Morrigan said you were sharp. No liar, she.



--



* Zevran: Still with the stern glances, Alistair?

* Alistair: You didn't answer my question. About why the Crows wouldn't send their best man.

* Zevran: So for that I must suffer all these fearsome glares? You are cruel to subject me to such torture.

* Alistair: If you aren't telling me, there must be a reason.

* Zevran: If you must know, the masters do not often take contracts outside Antiva. And I made the best bid.

* Alistair: Best bid?

* Zevran: We agree to pay the guild a portion of whatever the contract offers. The one who agrees to pay the most gets the contract, so long as the guild deems them worthy.

* Alistair: And they thought you were worthy?

* Zevran: Against a pair of Grey Warden recruits? Apparently so.

* Alistair: Were there many who wanted the contract?

* Zevran: None. You are still Grey Wardens, after all, and even in Antiva, killing members of your order is considered... impolitic. It made the guild's decision considerably easier, I imagine.

* Alistair: Well, that's comforting, somehow.

[SurrealSadi]

You're welcome

[ejoslin]

Sami-Jo, I think so much is said in party banters -- I'm amazed at how many people discount the non-humorous ones or don't listen to the flow of the conversations and realize that there's a whole lot being said there. Many also don't seem to realize that often the conversations take place over several banters, not just one.



I learned more about all the characters from the party banters than I expected to. They are great.

[Addai]

Sresla wrote...

Not really trying to imply it's some sort of contest between the two FAQs. I was simply passing along the information that there are several other dialogue guides out there, in case people are looking for some "exact" numbers in order to, for example, plan for a sub-71 Zevran for the Taliesin conversation.

I got that tonight.  Interesting!  I was trying to figure out how my poor, confused mage felt about it.  I don't think she  resented Zevran leaving- in the confrontation you learn enough to see why it would be difficult for him to have to fight his friend.  Still, I kind of wish she did, because unless you tell Zevran that he should have stayed, you don't see the depth of emotion the event causes.  Though it is a little jarring how he switches from grieving for Taliesin to being hopeful/happy as he talks about the future (assuming you tell him you want to stay, of course).

I definitely have to say that I'm in the camp that he and T. were lovers.  It's interesting because up til now I hadn't heard him speak about anyone like that except Rinna.  It's almost a contradiction, because he obviously felt a great deal for Taliesin, yet he speaks about Rinna like a first love.

[Addai]

sami jo wrote...

* Alistair: I'm not an idiot. Well, not most of the time. You're no raw recruit, but I've seen you fight. You're no master of combat, by any means.
 

Ah, Alistair.  Such ****** and wind.  Don't you love willy-measuring contests!

[SurrealSadi]

It's possible Rinna was the first person to reach his heart, and that made her truly special. He may have cared greatly for Taliesin, but he loved Rinna.

[ejoslin]

SurrealSadi wrote...

It's possible Rinna was the first person to reach his heart, and that made her truly special. He may have cared greatly for Taliesin, but he loved Rinna.

I don't think he loved Rinna.  For a few reasons.  Maybe the most important being how he answers when the warden asks him if he's in love with him/her.  He honestly does not know how love feels, and it's obvious he has never felt anything like the way he feels for the warden.  That does not mean that Rinna wasn't special to him -- she was and he had genuine feelings for her.  Everything he thought he desired, in fact.  But he was certainly quick to let her die -- and he didn't mourn her until after he learned she hadn't betrayed them.  Then he deeply regretted his actions.  And his regrets were tied in further with how the crow master reacted to him, and to her death.

I realize I am completely in the minority on this one.  But I think don't think he actually loved her.  *grin* (ducking for cover now)

Edit: And yes, Zevran and Taliesen, if you hear that after Taliesen speech, you can say with fair certainty that they were lovers.  And Zevran sided with Taliesen over Rinna.  Read into that what you will.

Edit again: Perhaps I should make a separate post but . . .

Addai67 wrote...

I got that tonight.  Interesting!  I was trying to figure out how my poor, confused mage felt about it.  I don't think she  resented Zevran leaving- in the confrontation you learn enough to see why it would be difficult for him to have to fight his friend.  Still, I kind of wish she did, because unless you tell Zevran that he should have stayed, you don't see the depth of emotion the event causes.  Though it is a little jarring how he switches from grieving for Taliesin to being hopeful/happy as he talks about the future (assuming you tell him you want to stay, of course).

I definitely have to say that I'm in the camp that he and T. were lovers.  It's interesting because up til now I hadn't heard him speak about anyone like that except Rinna.  It's almost a contradiction, because he obviously felt a great deal for Taliesin, yet he speaks about Rinna like a first love.

I don't think you can take the story about Rinna without the story of how the Crow master made him feel.  EVERYTHING he had believed in about himself was completely taken away.  He took such pride in being a crow, put it above everything, and learned that he was absolutely nothing.  He chose the crows over Rinna, they were more important to him, and suddenly . . . ugh.

I think what lead him to want to die was that everything he believed about himself, the way he was viewed, the way he viewed himself, he realized was false.  He had nothing left of himself.  I'm not sure if that makes sense or not. It's hard putting gut feelings into words.

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 mars 2010 - 04:07 .

[Sresla]

Whatever magic had been preventing any of the other hirelings from engaging the mage was gone now and Zevran’s calculated lunge missed the mage by inches, as he intended. A good rogue could hit a target, a better one could miss on purpose while still making the onslaught look as if he intended harm.



It is amazingly difficult to get a good screenshot during The Long Road portion since you can't control Zevran for better angles. This was the only time I actually caught him going after my mage while my back was turned. Note to self: Next time I need to remember to take off my hat. Arg.

Modifié par Sresla, 02 mars 2010 - 04:09 .

[ejoslin]

Further thoughts on Zevran and Taliesen and Rinna . . .

When Zevran talks about his final mission, he is ashamed.

One thing to keep in mind, though. He does not blame Taliesen. He's not angry with Taliesen. He sided with Taliesen and the Crows over Rinna. He watched Taliesen cut her throat. Had Zevran truly been in love with her, I can't imagine that there wouldn't be anger there, or some resentment, or blame or something directed at Taliesen.  But all the loathing he feels is towards himself, not towards the person who both condemned and killed Rinna.  Which leads me to believe his feelings towards himself are not so much about her and her death as much as HIS role in it.

He also cared for Taliesen very deeply. You cannot see this unless he leaves the fight with Taliesen and you question him about it. And Taliesen obviously cares for Zevran -- he was trying to save him. It makes perfect sense why Zevran leaves if he's romancing the warden but not at Adore -- he's been in that situation with Taliesen before. Between two people he cares for deeply, but neither whom he's in love with (if that makes sense at all).

I still think what lead Zevran to want to die was learning that everything he believed in for himself, that he was the best crow, the best lover . . . it didn't matter how good he was, he still just didn't matter.

As I said in my last post about this, love, actual love, was something he had never experienced before the warden. When the warden asks him, he tells her, "I don't know. How would I know such a thing? I was raised by those who sold the illusion of love . . . " Had he actually loved Rinna, he would know how it feels, I would think. This feeling was completely new to him. He cared for her, yes. He cared for Taliesen, yes. But in the end, it just didn't matter.

Edit: Anyway, that's my story, I'm sticking to it, until someone convinces me I'm wrong!

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 mars 2010 - 04:24 .

[Addai]

Sresla that is an awesome shot. You're quite the photographer of screens.

[SurrealSadi]

...Wow... I've never actually kept Zevran at 71 or less(which is hard to tell on a console version), so I've never experienced him walking away from the fight. So, I've never had that conversation. Amazing what can be seen in such conversations.

[Addai]

I suppose we also have to bear in mind that he is looking back at his relationship with Taliesin through the lens of everything that has come after. Taliesin obviously cared about Zevran, but you see in him the hardness and mocking that must have been their everyday modus operandi. The way Zevran replies to him is a much different tone.

Edit:  So why did Taliesin say that Rinna betrayed them?  Maybe I'm not remembering how Zevran puts it, but it seems like he leaves that vague.  I know some have speculated that T. was jealous, that he was realizing it was becoming a love triangle.

Modifié par Addai67, 02 mars 2010 - 04:33 .