35177 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

I suppose we also have to bear in mind that he is looking back at his relationship with Taliesin through the lens of everything that has come after. Taliesin obviously cared about Zevran, but you see in him the hardness and mocking that must have been their everyday modus operandi. The way Zevran replies to him is a much different tone.

Very true. But Zevran also had that same hardness when he first joined you. He's cold and fairly sarcastic in tone until the warden spends some time talking to him and raising his approval.

Edit: New page, so added quoted text.  Gah!  My most eloquent argument yet for Zevran-didn't-really-love-Rinna and it's buried near the bottom of the previous page.  GRRRR!  I'll never convince anyone this way 

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 mars 2010 - 04:35 .

[Cuddlezarro]

It is amazingly difficult to get a good screenshot during The Long Road portion since you can't control Zevran for better angles.

you should try taking pictures in his fade dream its also freaking awful dew to how cramped his dream is

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

Edit: So why did Taliesin say that Rinna betrayed them? Maybe I'm not remembering how Zevran puts it, but it seems like he leaves that vague. I know some have speculated that T. was jealous, that he was realizing it was becoming a love triangle.

I have no idea why Taliesen said she betrayed them. Someone DID give the merchant information, and perhaps both Taliesen and Zevran believed it had to be one of the three of them. And they trusted each other more than they trusted her.  It actually lends credence to them being closer to each other than Zevran was to Rinna.

Edit: He just seems more deeply ashamed by his actions and realizing what he really was than anything else.

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 mars 2010 - 05:00 .

[Cuddlezarro]

today in the adventures of Alexander and Zev... Alexander uses his l33t flirtation skills to rob some guy blind!

shame Zevran doesnt comment at all because I would imagine his reaction to be rather hilarious and after this I get to do a few more side quests (back ally quests and the blood mage sanctum) then its off to the dalish!




EDIT: and it seems for whatever reason Return to Ripoffstigar items WILL Transfer to awakening for whatever reason...which means King Alexander gets to run around with the almighty NUGCRUSHER! while decked out in Cailens armor

also reading the calling theres even more reason to mock Wynn during the fade dream sequence

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 02 mars 2010 - 05:05 .

[SurrealSadi]

Oooh, I'm sure Zev's response would be priceless.

Edit: Ooh, really??? That means my pretty little rogue(s) can go kill more darkspawn with Duncan's weapons???

Modifié par SurrealSadi, 02 mars 2010 - 05:08 .

[Cuddlezarro]

SurrealSadi wrote...

Oooh, I'm sure Zev's response would be priceless.

Indeed

his and his guards reactions are pretty funny I can jus timagine Zev talking about it on the way back to camp

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 02 mars 2010 - 05:08 .

[Jaulen]

Hmm, see, I hadn't read that Talsien and Zev were lovers....more like brothers. Talsien was someone close to Zevran that he loved and cared for and trusted....I'll have to replay and do that again. Just kind of figured that Zev and Talsien kind of glomed onto each other and they became each other's 'family'.

[Cuddlezarro]

Jaulen wrote...

Hmm, see, I hadn't read that Talsien and Zev were lovers....more like brothers. Talsien was someone close to Zevran that he loved and cared for and trusted....I'll have to replay and do that again. Just kind of figured that Zev and Talsien kind of glomed onto each other and they became each other's 'family'.

Talisan and Zev where friends with benifits

he pretty much says it when he runs off and when you talk to him back at camp

I can post screenshots if you like

[Raiynsong]

I have yet to do Slim Cordry quests. Saving those for my next rogue. I'm doing the Antivan Crows ones now for the first time...Something new each gameplay.



I vote with Ejoslin that Zevran wasn't in love until he met MY pc :-) I'm not quite sure of Taliesen's motives. He doesn't sound all that sincere when he asks Zevran to come back. My take was that he was using his former relationship to bring Zevran back but I'm guessing he'll be betrayed later. And my money is on him betraying Rinna--possibly because he is jealous, or possibly because the Crow Master or some other paying person asked him to.



His name bothers me, though. I hate to see someone with the name Taliesin be a bad guy.



Hmm. I had Sten in Haven and he asked to see Alistair fight but didn't challenge me. We were still at neutral, though, so maybe that's why.

[Raiynsong]

I don't trust Taliesen. I think he'd betray Zevran as soon as he got him to side against the warden and killed her/him.

Sten was at neutral when we went to Haven but he did ask to see Alistair draw his weapon... not me, but then I'm a mage. Wonder if that affects him.

"I spy something that begins with G" OMG I spit my drink all over my keyboard....

<edit>  Bah sorry for the partially double post---my computer must have lagged.

Modifié par Raiynsong, 02 mars 2010 - 05:35 .

[soignee]

Yeah, there was a Taliesin/Rinna/Zevran triangle going on, I think it's quite obvious >.>

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I suppose we also have to bear in mind that he is looking back at his relationship with Taliesin through the lens of everything that has come after. Taliesin obviously cared about Zevran, but you see in him the hardness and mocking that must have been their everyday modus operandi. The way Zevran replies to him is a much different tone.

Very true. But Zevran also had that same hardness when he first joined you. He's cold and fairly sarcastic in tone until the warden spends some time talking to him and raising his approval.

Edit: New page, so added quoted text.  Gah!  My most eloquent argument yet for Zevran-didn't-really-love-Rinna and it's buried near the bottom of the previous page.  GRRRR!  I'll never convince anyone this way 

I buy it, no need to work that hard on my count at least.    I use the word "love" where Rinna is concerned, but recognize it has to be used loosely for anything in Zevran's past life.

I agree that the big factor in the difference between Taliesin and Zevran is the Warden's influence.  You can hear it when he tells Taliesin "you have a choice... [loudly] all of you do."   *chills*  *squee*  My PC would not have asked him to stay and fight, though I decided she needed to hear what he would say, so I had her test him a little in the talk afterwards.  She was moved by what he said, and I think the whole thing will be a turning point in her falling in love with him.  She's still too afraid to initiate anything, so I'm going to have to wait.  Of course, I ran off to Soldier's Peak and got the boots I'd been holding back!  +67... won't be long now.

[EccentricSage]

Doesn't Zevran have a line about Taliesin's priorities being misplaced or in the wrong place or something to that effect?



From the bits and pieces we get... I think Zevran always had compassion in him, though he had to hide it and fight it to be strong. Rinna just brought his feelings to the surface enough for him to feel like he was loosing control. This wouldn't be helped if he had feelings for Taliesin as well. Imagine secretly caring about others, and always having to hide it, and do what it takes to survive. Then you get something of a love triangle... with a woman who particularly stokes your passions, and says she loves you. Panic. That would lead to complete panicked confusion. You know... it would even be possible that Taliesin noticed this, and that could have been part of why he accused Rinna? We'll never know. But it's another interesting possibility. The more one ponders these little glimpses into Zevran's past, the more obvious it is that Crows live in a constant state of duress. Something that seems to be lost on some of the people in the 'Justifying' thread.



You see this in historical accounts, too. It's not that the people who do horrible things because they had to ever stopped feeling. It's just that they found ways to justify what they are being forced to do and bury their feelings. But they are still human beings and all the emotions are still active deep down, even as they become twisted. So I don't believe the Warden is the first time he's felt love exactly... but definitely the strongest love, love for someone who treats him well, someone he trusts completely, and he's now in a situation where he doesn't HAVE to suppress his feelings. All of that culminating would be overwhelming. He'd have to re-evaluate everything he'd ever thought, felt, and experienced as a Crow, because it's freedom and acceptance that is truly truly new to him, isn't it?



Besides, love can be so many things. Simple affection for someone that causes you to favor them over others, is still a form of love. Empathy for a mark that would make him want to please the mark, or prevent suffering, could be seen as a form of love. I think people forget that love is one of the basic driving forces behind our lives, not just something you experience on truly special occasions. It's something in the background that encompasses the good in people even if it is hidden and forgotten. If a person never had that, they'd have been a psychopathic monster incapable of redemption.

[Addai]

Raiynsong wrote...

Hmm. I had Sten in Haven and he asked to see Alistair fight but didn't challenge me. We were still at neutral, though, so maybe that's why.

What?  That's odd.  This is the first time you've been to Haven?

[Nonvita]

EccentricSage wrote...

From the bits and pieces we get... I think Zevran always had compassion in him, though he had to hide it and fight it to be strong. Rinna just brought his feelings to the surface enough for him to feel like he was loosing control.

The only thing I probably disagree with in your post is the second sentence here. I don't think Rinna made Zevran lose control, or he wouldn't have been so quick to turn on her once he found her a traitor. With Rinna, he felt new emotions, but they were still vastly tampered by his commitment to the Crows.

I do agree that he felt 'love,' but by that I'm just refering to the basic emotional reaction. To me, real love only comes after a period of time and requires not just the emotional feeling but also the commitment to always put the other person before yourself. The simple emotion of love, however, can be felt very quickly and for many people, so what he felt was not real love but just the emotional high. I suppose you could call it passion or lust, but I don't really see it like that. It's a little bit different somehow, in a fairly inexplainable way, but for me I have no problem saying Zevran 'loved' her.

But again, love was only worthwhile to him at that point if it could fit easily alongside his existence as a Crow. It was far from unconditional, far from selfless, and far from pure. She was everything he ever wanted because he could push her to the side rather than be forced to put her at the forefront. And in the end, she was expendable.

And I always have to wonder if she ever told him she loved him. If she was part of the Crows also, it seems strange to think of her talking about emotions in that way. I feel like 'love' was never really discussed- it was just an intense relationship that still fit in somewhat with the relationships Crows seem to have had amongst themselves. It doesn't seem uncommon for Crows to have sexual relationships, so I can't help but think they weren't really that scared of people knowing they did those things. It only seems to have become a problem because either Taliesan got jealous and framed her or the Crow leaders just happened to use her as their pawn.

I can't really comment on Taliesan, though, because I've never gotten said dialogue. =P



As an aside, I think I'm going crazy. In class today I realized that one guy looks exactly like Alistair (those saying he doesn't look 20, I can totally prove you wrong) and I seriously could not stop staring at him. It was making me sad to think I'd never find someone who looks like Zevran... Then suddenly I looked at another guy in the class, and lo and behold I realized he looks a lot like the modded Zevran someone posted in those pictures a few pages back...
I think I'm imagining these similarities in my head. I've seriously never been so obsessed with video game characters to act like this. Something is wrong with me...  class next week will be impossible to get through, as well...

[Charsen]

Nonvita wrote...
As an aside, I think I'm going crazy. In class today I realized that one guy looks exactly like Alistair (those saying he doesn't look 20, I can totally prove you wrong) and I seriously could not stop staring at him. It was making me sad to think I'd never find someone who looks like Zevran... Then suddenly I looked at another guy in the class, and lo and behold I realized he looks a lot like the modded Zevran someone posted in those pictures a few pages back...
I think I'm imagining these similarities in my head. I've seriously never been so obsessed with video game characters to act like this. Something is wrong with me...  class next week will be impossible to get through, as well...

Mm, that's not crazy, that's a golden opportunity. Get the club and the rope, it's hunting season after class! 

Modifié par Charsen, 02 mars 2010 - 07:29 .

[EccentricSage]

Passion can be a type of love I think, but not lust. I'm talking about love as one of the basic components of our being... not the idea of commitment or the physical high the chemical component causes. Love isn't just something you share with someone who you place above yourself. It's one of the factors in the background for everything we experience and do. It's also ridiculously hard to explain in any adequate terms. lol Mmmm... at any given moment, stop yourself and examine the thoughts and feelings you were just experiencing, and try to trace them back. There is an essence of being.

I think I remember Zev saying she said it when she was begging for her life. I didn't mean that he lost control... I worded it badly... more like he felt like he's loosing control. Hence why he became so cruel towards he in her last moments. Lashing out at her because she seemed a threat.

I agree, I never doubted the Crows have relationships, but the face of those interactions probably had to seem purely physical and not emotional. Their masters want them to be heartless and obedient killers. Any sense of self worth, or value for each other, would give them something of their own to hold on to. Something to fight for or die for.

Charsen wrote...

Nonvita wrote...
As an aside, I think I'm going crazy. In class today I realized that one guy looks exactly
like Alistair (those saying he doesn't look 20, I can totally prove you
wrong) and I seriously could not stop staring at him. It was making me
sad to think I'd never find someone who looks like Zevran... Then
suddenly I looked at another guy in the class, and lo and behold I
realized he looks a lot like the modded Zevran someone posted in those
pictures a few pages back...
I think I'm imagining these similarities in my head. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/andy.png[/smilie] I've seriously never been so obsessed with video game characters to act like this. Something is wrong with me... [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie] class next week will be impossible to get through, as well...

Mm, that's not crazy, that's a golden opportunity. Get the club and the rope, it's hunting season after class! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/ninja.png[/smilie]

Hee hee hee hee hee...

Or at least do some camera stalking so we can help you determine wether it is that you are crazy or merely a victim of circumstance. 

Modifié par EccentricSage, 02 mars 2010 - 07:53 .

[Sresla]

You know, we should really attempt to wrest control of the Easy Lover: Zevran Arainai Fan Club group away from the current owner. Compared to the "We Alistair" group (400+ strong), the Zevran one only has 50 (what!) and I haven't seen any others out there that are better (which is just sad). Not to say this thread isn't great for promoting Zevran visability but, come on... 50...

Modifié par Sresla, 02 mars 2010 - 09:53 .

[Sabriana]

A coup d'état? I feel all conspiratorish now. I didn't even know there was such a club.

I also wish to steal your sig. I wonder how I could accomplish that without you noticing, Sresla.

[EccentricSage]

We should start a new one with a better name and slogan, clearly.

Team Zevran "We are too awesome by far"


Unrelated OT side note:

Uuuuaaaagh technical dificulties!  D:  I was having some odd graphic glitches, so I updated the graphics card's ...erm...whatever-they-are-called files.  Now I'm having different, more severe graphics glitches and the graphics actualy look worse.  Even though the game's utility thing says that my graphics card is compatible now, where as before it said it wasn't because of the lack of updates.  The heck.

Back to an old restore point.  I've gotten used to my rogues being surounded in a veil of green fog when they're in stealth mode anyhow.  lol  And green spirits with yellow heads, too. 

Modifié par EccentricSage, 02 mars 2010 - 10:56 .

[ejoslin]

*grin* I love this point so much, I'll say it a third time.

When Zevran declares his feelings for the warden, the warden can ask him if he's in love with him/her. Zevran's response makes it so obvious that he has never felt love before -- what he is feeling for the warden is completely new. You can bet that he never had that conflict with anyone else -- if he ever had, he would not have been so confused.

What he felt for Rinna was not love -- it was nothing like what he ends up feeling for the warden. He cared for her, was infatuated, was quick to let her die. And when the Crow master who didn't like him let him know it just didn't matter at ALL, none of them mattered, he realized, right there, exactly what he was.  That part of the story is just as important as what he allowed to happen to Rinna.

He does mention at other times how he was expendable. I don't think he even realized it until that moment. And he was deeply ashamed of what he had done as well.

Anyway, I had written a lot more about it, but I think I"m repeating myself. And since my interpretation is different than many people's, that's fine as well.

I stick with, 100%, Taliensen and Zevran were more than friends, and more than friends with benefits. You have to see Zevran walk away from that fight to see it. It's there that you see the conflict between two people he cares deeply about. He's been in that place before -- I think that is also how he felt for Rinna. With the warden, he felt all of that -- and then more. And then so much more, he was changed for good.

Edit: Zevran felt no anger, no resentment, nothing negative to the man who both condemned and murdered Rinna.  He hated himself for HIS part in it, but not for Taliesen.  That also ot me indicates what happened wasn't tormenting him because of his feelings for HER, but his feelings about himself.

Second edit:  I like having a very public Zevran presence, but we could also make our own group.  ES has a terrific name!  I'll let someone else do that 

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 mars 2010 - 11:36 .

[soulsweeper87]

Nonvita wrote...

It's always so hard for me to tell with that part because you can get *so* much approval in the pre-sex chat that it can end up positive regardless of your response afterward. Even for questioning him about love I've ended up with +16 before, despite it being rather unwelcome. Makes me wish I had the toolset to check the actual values...

I remember reading in some other thread that approval values are actualy dynamic, at least with some talks. They're set to bring you to the next level of relationship. For example, if you need 5 points to reach 'adore', that's what you get. If you need 10, you get 10. It also works the other way around with approval loss. Can anyone confirm that?

[EccentricSage]

ejoslin wrote...

*grin* I love this point so much, I'll say it a third time.

When Zevran declares his feelings for the warden, the warden can ask him if he's in love with him/her. Zevran's response makes it so obvious that he has never felt love before -- what he is feeling for the warden is completely new. You can bet that he never had that conflict with anyone else -- if he ever had, he would not have been so confused.

What he felt for Rinna was not love -- it was nothing like what he ends up feeling for the warden. He cared for her, was infatuated, was quick to let her die. And when the Crow master who didn't like him let him know it just didn't matter at ALL, none of them mattered, he realized, right there, exactly what he was.  That part of the story is just as important as what he allowed to happen to Rinna.

He does mention at other times how he was expendable. I don't think he even realized it until that moment. And he was deeply ashamed of what he had done as well.

Anyway, I had written a lot more about it, but I think I"m repeating myself. And since my interpretation is different than many people's, that's fine as well.

I stick with, 100%, Taliensen and Zevran were more than friends, and more than friends with benefits. You have to see Zevran walk away from that fight to see it. It's there that you see the conflict between two people he cares deeply about. He's been in that place before -- I think that is also how he felt for Rinna. With the warden, he felt all of that -- and then more. And then so much more, he was changed for good.

Edit: Zevran felt no anger, no resentment, nothing negative to the man who both condemned and murdered Rinna.  He hated himself for HIS part in it, but not for Taliesen.  That also ot me indicates what happened wasn't tormenting him because of his feelings for HER, but his feelings about himself.

I actually agree with all of this completely.  Just that there are diferent forms of love.  The way he cared for Taliesin is a type of love.  But it's true it's not the same as what he experiences with the warden, which is a first.  It reminds me of how the Japanese have two words for love... one can mean any type of love no matter how mundane or fleeting, but the other means something like 'I live for you'.  Zevran lives for the Warden, once he reaches that point, for sure.

[ejoslin]

EccentricSage wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

*grin* I love this point so much, I'll say it a third time.

When Zevran declares his feelings for the warden, the warden can ask him if he's in love with him/her. Zevran's response makes it so obvious that he has never felt love before -- what he is feeling for the warden is completely new. You can bet that he never had that conflict with anyone else -- if he ever had, he would not have been so confused.

What he felt for Rinna was not love -- it was nothing like what he ends up feeling for the warden. He cared for her, was infatuated, was quick to let her die. And when the Crow master who didn't like him let him know it just didn't matter at ALL, none of them mattered, he realized, right there, exactly what he was.  That part of the story is just as important as what he allowed to happen to Rinna.

He does mention at other times how he was expendable. I don't think he even realized it until that moment. And he was deeply ashamed of what he had done as well.

Anyway, I had written a lot more about it, but I think I"m repeating myself. And since my interpretation is different than many people's, that's fine as well.

I stick with, 100%, Taliensen and Zevran were more than friends, and more than friends with benefits. You have to see Zevran walk away from that fight to see it. It's there that you see the conflict between two people he cares deeply about. He's been in that place before -- I think that is also how he felt for Rinna. With the warden, he felt all of that -- and then more. And then so much more, he was changed for good.

Edit: Zevran felt no anger, no resentment, nothing negative to the man who both condemned and murdered Rinna.  He hated himself for HIS part in it, but not for Taliesen.  That also ot me indicates what happened wasn't tormenting him because of his feelings for HER, but his feelings about himself.

I actually agree with all of this completely.  Just that there are diferent forms of love.  The way he cared for Taliesin is a type of love.  But it's true it's not the same as what he experiences with the warden, which is a first.  It reminds me of how the Japanese have two words for love... one can mean any type of love no matter how mundane or fleeting, but the other means something like 'I live for you'.  Zevran lives for the Warden, once he reaches that point, for sure.

It's just that the conflict is there only if Zevran cares for the warden (70 or below when romanced).  Silly as this may sound, I think that's where his feelings are for Taliesen, and where they were for Rinna.  It's once he hits Adore that there is no question about his fighting for the warden, because even there, he feels so much more than he ever felt for anyone else.  Also, he will fight if (warm) no matter what, but I think that's because it's not about being torn between two people he cares for deeply.  In that case, it's about leaving the Crows.  Does that make sense?

[Sresla]

Sabriana wrote...

A coup d'état? I feel all conspiratorish now. I didn't even know there was such a club.
I also wish to steal your sig. I wonder how I could accomplish that without you noticing, Sresla.

You're welcome to do so. We Alistair has a couple, no reason we can't, too. Although, it's not really my best effort, I just wanted something a bit fancier than plain old text. If we make a new group, I'll see about putting some up that people can use.