35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabriana]

Are there any consequences for picking the "I don't need any help" line? Like, say, breaking the romance?

[jenovan]

ejoslin wrote...

No, this is when he thanks the Warden for freeing him from the crows. After he says he wants to take responsibility for preventing the warden's untimely death. If you select the last choice, "I don't need any help," you get this one.  Really, all four of the dialog choices there are fantastic.

Oh, wow!  I would NEVER have chosen that option, it sounds like it's something off-putting. Holy cow, thanks for posting that!!
That's what I get for skipping dialogue options...

(Happily enough, I did write Taliesen offering to help Zevran in the probably-never-to-be-published pre-fic I half-wrote... hooray for canonical support  )

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

Are there any consequences for picking the "I don't need any help" line? Like, say, breaking the romance?

No.  When there are consequences to any dialogs I suggest, I warn.  I promise!  I will not spring a ninja breakup on anyone.

Edit: jenovan, there is SO much in there if you choose different dialogs.  From various kisses to additional insights.  It keeps the game and romance from getting boring, for sure!

Modifié par ejoslin, 12 mars 2010 - 03:10 .

[barkingM1]

Sannox wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
  Oh, and I'll post a screenie that a lot of people may not have seen.  In a second edit.  It's a good one, don't worry.  Wow.

Second edit:
I said that not long ago. Taliesen offered to come to the ambush with me and I said, "Taliesen, I don't need any help. This Grey Warden is a new recruit. How hard could it be?"


But then, if I had been more open-minded to his help, either you would be dead or I would be. So it was better I refused. Huh.

Thank you for posting these.  I haven't seen that conversation yet.

Nor had I!  [Starts paging frantically through ejoslin's FAQ]   

Sannox, your dialog with Zev upthread made me giggle - 'oh, nothing, just wanted to look at you.'  hee.

[Sabriana]

*takes comfort in Ejoslin's promise*

Never to be published? What is the fanfic about, Jenovan? Can we have at least some bread-crumbs of info? What's a pre-fic? I tried google, but get answers to 'prefix'. I didn't ask for no darn prefix google, thank you very much.

[ejoslin]

barkingM1 wrote...

Nor had I!  [Starts paging frantically through ejoslin's FAQ]   

Sannox, your dialog with Zev upthread made me giggle - 'oh, nothing, just wanted to look at you.'  hee.

It's not in my FAQ! There's so much more I could add to that thing, but it's already too long   But all these things I say about the romance, I DO get from in game.  I don't mind taking the small approval dings to get to know more about the character   *grin*  Sometimes it's hard, though, because, like there, who doesn't want to assure Zev that neither one of you have to die!  I'm such a heel at times

Edit: I think the only dialog choice I actually mention in my FAQ is the "untimely death" dialog because it's too good for people to miss, and so many people romancing him do miss it.

Modifié par ejoslin, 12 mars 2010 - 03:21 .

[jenovan]

Sabriana wrote...

*takes comfort in Ejoslin's promise*
Never to be published? What is the fanfic about, Jenovan? Can we have at least some bread-crumbs of info? What's a pre-fic? I tried google, but get answers to 'prefix'. I didn't ask for no darn prefix google, thank you very much.

Ahh, I just said "pre-fic" to shorten prequel fic. I'm lazy (and I've got to type fast to keep up with this thread sometimes! ).  It was just supposed to be a short piece, with Zevran's last conversation with Taliesen before he leaves for the ambush.  It kind of fizzled out halfway through, though.

[e-ver]

ejoslin wrote...

I do NOT think that Zevran loved Rinna. I think he was infatuated with her, though.

Zevran, when declaring his feelings for the warden, very obviously had never felt the way he does for the warden towards anyone before.

That's true, though one could argue, that he simply didn't get this far with Rinna. (I'm not saying that I think that, as I said, I'm only beginning to wrap my brain around this, while you guys are far ahead of me here.)

Edit: I can add a lot more about this.  But I agree with you -- his wording does not sound like he was in love with her.  It's the whole story that caused him to crack, not just what he allowed to happen to Rinna.

Plus, if you can talk to Zevran about Taliesen, you find out that he does not hold him responsible.  If Rinna were truly his first love, you would think that Zevran would feel some animosity towards the man who set up and killed her. But he doesn't.  He doesn't blame Taliesen for it at all.

Adding more!  Oh, I have lots to say about this one. (sorry you asked yet?)

Second edit: What caused Zevran to crack was a combination of things. Probably the most important was realizing exactly what he meant to the crows -- absolutely nothing. Rinna's dying . . . he was very quick to not only let her be killed, but he spat on her as well.  Had she actually been the one to betray them, he would have felt NOTHING about killing her.  Then he learned that she was innocent -- and you know how Zevran feels about killing innocents.  And he WAS infatuated.  Then learning that not only was she nothing to the crows, HE was nothing as well.  He took such great pride in being a crow, yet if he died, they would not care at all.

Zevran actually had far deeper feelings for Taliesen than Rinna.  I believe as a lover, but I suppose maybe that's open to interpretation (though if you are able to ask Zevran about it, it's pretty clear, really, but most people don't get that dialog choice).  Taliesen came to save Zevran, at great risk to himself.  Taliesen actually had offered to help Zevran with the initial attack -- Zevran turned him down.  Since Zevran knew it was a suicide gesture, Taliesen must also have realized how dangerous it was to try and get Zevran back, especially since he knew Zevran had failed.  But also, Zevran was sure quick to side with Taliesen over Rinna.  So you know who he actually trusted more.

First of all, I'm not sorry at all that I asked! On the contrary, I'm glad that you have
the patience of telling me your thoughts on the subject, despite having
discussed it before.

You explanation that it was more the aftermath of the incident than Rinna's death itself, makes a lot of sense.  I don't know what to add to that (although I would like to add something, because I don't like to answer detailed explanations with one-liners), this is a very good explanation.

Good points about the relationship between Zevran and Taliesen as well!
I never got the conversation with Zevran about Taliesen (I think he has to leave the group before the fight for that to show up?), but I looked at it in the toolset. Zevran will answer the PC's question  "A good friend, was he?" with the line "He was. And more. But there is no need to relive the past. That is all behind me, now." and this line has the voiceover comment: "grim, 'and more' meaning he was once Zevran's lover".
So you are absolutely correct about Zevran and Taliesen being lovers.

There's one detail I don't agree with though, at least not entirely. You mentioned that he trusted Taliesen more and that is, why he sided with him and not Rinna. I think his willingness to kill her, was also caused by the fact that he had feelings for her. He himself says, that it frightened him, perhaps he wanted to prove to himself that he was as cold and professional as a Crow should be and at the same time get rid of the one thing that threatened to become a major weakness, especially as he believed she betrayed the Crows?
Zevran and Taliesen were lovers, but I got the impression, that Taliesen had deeper feelings for Zevran than the other way round. Maybe even love? My guess is, Taliesen felt threatened by Zevran's growing infatuation with Rinna. After all, Rinna accomplished something, Taliesen had not: she touched something withi him and made him realize that he had not closed off his heart completely.
Whatever their relationship (Zevran's and Taliesen's I mean), I don't think it was a very healthy thing, for both of them.

jenovan wrote...

*snip*

I think
maybe he *thought* he loved her, or, well, maybe he loved her in such a
capacity as he was able to, in that environment, but it's nothing
compared to what he feels for the romanced Warden.   It seems that he
wasn't willing to stick his neck out and stand up for Rinna, let alone
die for her... but they were both entangled in the Crows.  Maybe he
could only really experience love at its fullest after leaving
them.

Thanks for the welcome!

I (of course) agree, that Zevran's feelings for the PC are much deeper than those he had for Rinna.
Maybe
you're right, that it's virtually impossible for members of the Crows
to develop feelings for one another (regardless of the cruel training,
that tries to turn them into emotionless killers). There seems to be
much backstabbing going on between the members of the Crows, keeping
alliances fluid etc., maybe there simply can't exist the trust that is
needed to develop any deeper feelings for someone.

Charsen wrote...
Welcome to the group Allerleihrau [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sideways.png[/smilie]

*snip*

Edit: i agree; i do not think Zev loved Rinna truly, however, i think she made him realize that love was potential, and that shock probably contributed to his actions.

Thank you too for the welcome.

Sabriana wrote...

Allerleihrau, the way we hashed this
out is that Zevran felt something for Rinna that scared him. When he
was told that he was nothing, that she was nothing, there was only
emptiness in him, which drove him to the suicide attempt.
He never
felt love, or affection, so it was a completely alien feeling that he
could not identify when it started happening to him with the PC. He
knows he trusts her, and he feels a (for him) scary feeling, and it
makes him fight it.
That's why many of us believe that he falls in
love right from the beginning, but fights it every step of the way,
until he can no longer do so. He then surrenders, and from then on the
PC becomes his everything.

Thank you for the summary.



@ all

You've given me a much clearer view on this, thank you all.

There is still the matter of interpreting Zevran's line "Everything I thought I desired." when describing Rinna.
With the very good interpretations and explanations you have given me, I think now, that Zevran realized after joining the PC's group, that Rinna was in fact not what he desired. Because she, like Taliesen and him, was part of this twisted circle of broken people that make up the Crows and his true desire was to find someone who has nothing to do withthis part of his life.
Thoughts on that? Am in completely in the dark here?

Modifié par Allerleihrau, 12 mars 2010 - 03:22 .

[AnniLau]

I feel cheated. I made a DNF, at least partially to see the kiss everyone has raved about, but there wasn't one! I don't know if the game glitched or what, but Zev closed his eyes for a split second and then they were in the tent. I've tried reloading/replaying, but still no kiss.

[Sabriana]

He does grow a lot during the course of the game. His break from the Crows is complete after Taliesen's death, and he knows it. Btw, thanks for the little insight into the toolset, I wish I could install it, blech.

He realizes that there is so much more to life. He tells the PC at one point "already it's been many new things", and later on he says "I've never done anything so worthy" (fighting the Blight).

[ejoslin]

@ Allerleihrau

You could be right, that he sided with Taliesen because of his feelings for Rinna. I don't know. Everyone sees it differently for sure. I just saw Zev and Taliesen as lovers, with RInna as a bit of an outsider to the team. Zevran had to make a choice there, and he chose Taliesen.

And you get the talk about Taliesen after the encounter with him, IF he leaves. To get him to leave, have him romanced and at 70+ care or BELOW, and do NOT answer, "Zevran doesn't need the crows any more." He'll leave, and you can question him about it after the encounter.

And I'm not surprised the toolset confirms they were lovers. It really is very clear in that dialog that they are. The voice and the facial expressions say so much.

Modifié par ejoslin, 12 mars 2010 - 03:30 .

[barkingM1]

ejoslin wrote...

barkingM1 wrote...

Nor had I!  [Starts paging frantically through ejoslin's FAQ]   

Sannox, your dialog with Zev upthread made me giggle - 'oh, nothing, just wanted to look at you.'  hee.

It's not in my FAQ! There's so much more I could add to that thing, but it's already too long   But all these things I say about the romance, I DO get from in game.  I don't mind taking the small approval dings to get to know more about the character   *grin*  Sometimes it's hard, though, because, like there, who doesn't want to assure Zev that neither one of you have to die!  I'm such a heel at times

"too long" plus "info about Zev" = does not compute.   But I get you. 

I'm also one of the compulsive save-before-talking souls, so I should do more exploring on my own, eh?  What I hadn't realized until seeing a lot of your discoveries is how different some of the dialogues with him are several conversations later.   Talk about deep character developement  - not to mention replayability.

Argh - almost 7:30 - gotta pretend to work now until lunch . . .

[ejoslin]

AnniLau wrote...

I feel cheated. I made a DNF, at least partially to see the kiss everyone has raved about, but there wasn't one! I don't know if the game glitched or what, but Zev closed his eyes for a split second and then they were in the tent. I've tried reloading/replaying, but still no kiss.

Here is how to get THAT kiss.

Wait until he offers the massage.  Give a nice answer.  Then ask him if he's suggesting what you think he is.  Then either ask him if he's sure, then tell him you're not sure.  THEN tell him, "No, I'm definitely of a mind."  Then get the very best kiss in the game.

[AnniLau]

ejoslin wrote...

Here is how to get THAT kiss.

Wait until he offers the massage.  Give a nice answer.  Then ask him if he's suggesting what you think he is.  Then either ask him if he's sure, then tell him you're not sure.  THEN tell him, "No, I'm definitely of a mind."  Then get the very best kiss in the game.

Eep, I hope I have an autosave, because I'm positive I overwrote the quick save.

[Sabriana]

Oh, ouch. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, AnniLau.

[ejoslin]

AnniLau wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Here is how to get THAT kiss.

Wait until he offers the massage.  Give a nice answer.  Then ask him if he's suggesting what you think he is.  Then either ask him if he's sure, then tell him you're not sure.  THEN tell him, "No, I'm definitely of a mind."  Then get the very best kiss in the game.

Eep, I hope I have an autosave, because I'm positive I overwrote the quick save.

It's worth going back a little. The kiss, unlike all but one other kiss I can think of, starts focused on her (or his, this is for a male dwarf as well) face while Zev kneels in front of her (completely hot in and of itself), then the camera switches, he holds her face, and kisses her, and the camera fades out as he puts his arms around her neck.  It is truly, truly squee.

[AnniLau]

Sabriana wrote...

Oh, ouch. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, AnniLau.

Thanks, but it should be OK. I have the Zevran ASAP mod loaded and, aside from chit chatting in camp and popping up to Denerim to kill a couple of people, we haven't done much beyond Lothering. I know there was one just before leaving there.

[jenovan]

Allerleihrau wrote...

-lots of snipping all over-
but I looked at it in the toolset. Zevran will answer the PC's question  "A good friend, was he?" with the line "He was. And more. But there is no need to relive the past. That is all behind me, now." and this line has the voiceover comment: "grim, 'and more' meaning he was once Zevran's lover".
So you are absolutely correct about Zevran and Taliesen being lovers.

There's one detail I don't agree with though, at least not entirely. You mentioned that he trusted Taliesen more and that is, why he sided with him and not Rinna. I think his willingness to kill her, was also caused by the fact that he had feelings for her. He himself says, that it frightened him, perhaps he wanted to prove to himself that he was as cold and professional as a Crow should be and at the same time get rid of the one thing that threatened to become a major weakness, especially as he believed she betrayed the Crows?
Zevran and Taliesen were lovers, but I got the impression, that Taliesen had deeper feelings for Zevran than the other way round. Maybe even love? My guess is, Taliesen felt threatened by Zevran's growing infatuation with Rinna. After all, Rinna accomplished something, Taliesen had not: she touched something withi him and made him realize that he had not closed off his heart completely.
Whatever their relationship (Zevran's and Taliesen's I mean), I don't think it was a very healthy thing, for both of them.
---
I (of course) agree, that Zevran's feelings for the PC are much deeper than those he had for Rinna.
Maybe you're right, that it's virtually impossible for members of the Crows to develop feelings for one another (regardless of the cruel training, that tries to turn them into emotionless killers). There seems to be much backstabbing going on between the members of the Crows, keeping alliances fluid etc., maybe there simply can't exist the trust that is needed to develop any deeper feelings for someone.
---
There is still the matter of interpreting Zevran's line "Everything I thought I desired." when describing Rinna.
With the very good interpretations and explanations you have given me, I think now, that Zevran realized after joining the PC's group, that Rinna was in fact not what he desired. Because she, like Taliesen and him, was part of this twisted circle of broken people that make up the Crows and his true desire was to find someone who has nothing to do with this part of his life.
Thoughts on that? Am in completely in the dark here?

Oh, WOW... confirmation from the toolset, even!  This is a great Taliesen/Zevran day. *mini-squee*

I tend to agree with the idea that Zevran was willing to let Rinna be killed (well, more than he might have been otherwise) because he was afraid of what she represented, emotionally.  That whole "I convinced myself it was"... to me it sounded like he was trying desperately to find a reason or a way to get rid of these dangerous feelings..   I also think it's entirely possible that Taliesen felt something more for Zevran than Zev felt for him, and that there may have been a jealousy issue there... eek.    Edit: Taliesen does seem to feel a certain protectiveness (or possessiveness?) for Zevran... his willingness to lie about Rinna might be taken as him covering his own ass, but he offers to help Zevran make up a story to go back to the Crows, not to mention he volunteered to find him in the first place..

As for your last point, well, I don't think Zevran would have realized he wanted someone/something free of the Crows (it was the only thing he knew, after all), but that doesn't mean it wasn't true.   

Modifié par jenovan, 12 mars 2010 - 03:44 .

[MorGothic]

Just though I'd chime in about Blood Mages, as I currently have one in progress. I though you might be interested to know that you can increase your Spirit Damage by +50% with the right equipment, just incase your not using the Detailed Tooltips Mod (If your on the PC you should be) you may not know why this is beneficent, the simple fact is that bar the Primal Magic line and Stinging Swarm (I can't think of any other's) your spells all deal Spirit Damage so dealing +50% damage is awesome. Now as it will become clear in a moment the one downside of this build is that it limits your equipment choice if you want the full +50%, but it can be customized easily as you will see.



Corrupted Magister's Staff - +5 spell power, +15% Spirit Damage, Chance of Paralysis (RtO Mages Chest)

Black Hand Gauntlets - +20% Spirit Damage (Thy Brother's Killer quest)

Dreamsever - +10% Spirit Damage (Body of Mad Hermit)

Blood Ring - Improves Blood Magic, +5% Spirit Damage (Unofficial Training Opportunities, Orzammar Proving)



The setup I use is the one above but there is another ring: Spiral Ring - +5% Spirit Damage (Circle Tower - Purchased from Quartermaster).



For those that go AW but want to wear Armour instead of robe's I would suggest Evon the Great's Mail and Wade's Superior Dragonscale Gloves and Boots (as it gives you the set bonus). Total bonuses are:



Total Armour Value: 49.26 (Rock Armour can increase this up to 61.52)

Total Fatigue: 3.4% (after -20% Fatigue Set Bonus 23.4% normally)



+1 Combat Health Regeneration

+10% Chance to Dodge Attacks

+2 Combat Stamina Regeneration

+10 Defense against Missiles

+20% Fire Resistance

+5 Defense



Some people wonder why AW is considered overpowered....



In other news I took Zev to both Mages Tower (yay for the Skip Fade mod) and the Gauntlet for the first time yesterday. My DN has only Redcliffe Village/Castle (Saving Conner and Isolde (the B*tch)..*grumble* ) to do now and then it on to the Landsmeet and I'm really stuck with how I want it all to turn out with Loghian/Alister/Anora...



P.S. Sorry about the Wall of Text

[ejoslin]

EXCELLENT wall of text. I had no CLUE you got the set bonus if you used Evon's WITH Wade's Superior. How on earth? OMG! MY BM/AW is going to be completely badass!

[Creature 1]

Allerleihrau wrote...
There's one detail I don't agree with though, at least not entirely. You mentioned that he trusted Taliesen more and that is, why he sided with him and not Rinna. I think his willingness to kill her, was also caused by the fact that he had feelings for her. He himself says, that it frightened him, perhaps he wanted to prove to himself that he was as cold and professional as a Crow should be and at the same time get rid of the one thing that threatened to become a major weakness, especially as he believed she betrayed the Crows?
Zevran and Taliesen were lovers, but I got the impression, that Taliesen had deeper feelings for Zevran than the other way round. Maybe even love? My guess is, Taliesen felt threatened by Zevran's growing infatuation with Rinna. After all, Rinna accomplished something, Taliesen had not: she touched something withi him and made him realize that he had not closed off his heart completely.

Another one of my sockpuppets! 

Whatever their relationship (Zevran's and Taliesen's I mean), I don't think it was a very healthy thing, for both of them.

I agree with this as well.

[Sabriana]

I think Zevran sided with Taliesen because he was the safer choice, at least in his mind. Rinna woke up something that bothered him to the point of scaring him, while (for Zevran) Taliesen was a friend with benefits (I love that expression), but nothing more, nothing scary.

Yeah, Jenovan, the "I convinced myself" is what makes me think that. He really worked hard to fight whatever it was that Rinna woke up in him.

Thank you for the BM advice, MorGothic. I'm glad that Evon's can be matched with other armor and still gives a set-bonus.

[ejoslin]

I will never ever be convinced that Zevran didn't have deep feelings for Taliesen. Never. He is too heartbroken if are able to question him about his relationship to Taliesen. His face is as sad as it is in any Zevran breakup scene.



It's gut wrenching. Truly. His voice, his face -- really. I believed as well they were FWB until I saw that. Now I really believe it was deeper. Still not love -- Zevran didn't know love until the Warden. But definitely not just FWB.

[Charsen]

btw, thought this might be of interest to your discussion about when he realizes he's in love.

when he gives you the ring in the proposal dialog and he says: "Not unless you wish it" re: proposal
the toolset comments indicate he should be "hopeful"

and should you accept, he says the line "I apologize for acting so strangely. I think I will be better, no. Much better."
the comments in the toolset for this line say: "he has overcome his awkwardness now -- he knows he is in love"

(not that this is new info, especially, just throwing it out there since i ran across it)

Modifié par Charsen, 12 mars 2010 - 03:57 .

[Addai]

Sannox wrote...

i cant seem to commit to a new character. I loved playing a mage (was a rogue the first time), and it's going to be difficult to give that up, but I can't just play through as another mage, can I? And last time, it turned out that Zevran could hardly open any locks (I did put points in, but maybe it was too late for him to skill up) so I played most of the game without opening chests. So maybe I should go rogue again, just for that. But I haven't played a warrior yet - do you usually spec them as a tank and leave Alistair behind? I think I'm going to alternate male and female characters so I'll be female this time - that's all I know, but something other than dwarf (because I've already done that). Is there much difference if you choose a different race? I didn't think the sex scene with my male elf was quite as romantic as with my female dwarf.

I'm completely biased, but I will no longer play anything but a rogue or mage.  Warrior class is boring as hell.  You just fight, and most of the specializations are passive so there's nothing interesting about them except the occasional Holy Smite.  Stealthing, lockpicking and trap disarming at least gives some variety.  When I do play a warrior (and unfortunately I chose to make my current DNF a DW warrior instead of rogue ), I make her the DPS and have Alistair or Sten tank.  She can be an alternate tank, especially with high dex, but tanking is the absolute dullest job on the team.

Another benefit of rogue:  You and Zevran can execute sneaky maneuvers as a team.  Sooo much fun.  The down side:  You don't get to hear Zevran saying "watch out, trap there."  That is almost reason enough to make a warrior, of course! 

I think others already addressed how to make Zevran into a cunning rogue.  He can easily be re-speced in just a few levels or with a couple tomes.