35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Second edit: The major problem with a con build is bloodmages are weaker at the beginning.  But it pays off in spades.  And the best spells, blood wound and blood control are so powerful that you may find yourself needing to cast nothing else.  Ogres CAN be controlled.

So much fun to have an ogre fighting for you, especially in the final battle where there are lots of them around.  Talk about DPS. 

[ejoslin]

Charsen wrote...

btw, thought this might be of interest to your discussion about when he realizes he's in love.

when he gives you the ring in the proposal dialog and he says: "Not unless you wish it" re: proposal
the toolset comments indicate he should be "hopeful"

and should you accept, he says the line "I apologize for acting so strangely. I think I will be better, no. Much better."
the comments in the toolset for this line say: "he has overcome his awkwardness now -- he knows he is in love"

(not that this is new info, especially, just throwing it out there since i ran across it)

I am right now cursing my computer for not running the toolset.  Yes, that is exactly what I had HOPED his response meant.  I love all these squee confirmations today!  THANK YOU!

[Sabriana]

Oh Ejoslin I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I personally believe that they were good friends, perhaps even best friends, but there was nothing between them that scared Zevran. That came when he met Rinna, and for him that was frightening enough to pick the safer choice, namely Taliesen.

Thanks, Charsen. Although we are all convinced that he's in love, it's good to read it.

Holy cow, people. Two more pages and we're at 300!

Modifié par Sabriana, 12 mars 2010 - 04:06 .

[ejoslin]

*grin* Sabriana, actually, you clarified that for me very well right there. Taliesen WAS the safer choice, wasn't he. *sigh* Just love it.

[Creature 1]

ejoslin wrote...

I will never ever be convinced that Zevran didn't have deep feelings for Taliesen. Never. He is too heartbroken if are able to question him about his relationship to Taliesen. His face is as sad as it is in any Zevran breakup scene.

It's gut wrenching. Truly. His voice, his face -- really. I believed as well they were FWB until I saw that. Now I really believe it was deeper. Still not love -- Zevran didn't know love until the Warden. But definitely not just FWB.

In my depressing prequel fic which will never be finished, they met the day Zevran got bought by the Crows.  They were friends and survived the Crows, so I think in some ways they were closer than brothers (and not just the sex, before that!) 

There are different ways to love.  Zevran was scared of his feelings for Rinna because they were so disruptive.  But when you love a friend or brother or sister, it's a different kind of love.  Doesn't leave you unable to eat or sleep, thinking about them obsessively, getting butterflies when you see them, but it's there and real, and when it comes down to it you'd die for them.  I think Zevran's feelings for Taliesin were more like this, maybe stronger foundationally than what he felt for Rinna, but easier to ignore, so less threatening to him. 

If Rinna had told Zevran Taliesin betrayed them, he would demand to see the proof, not stand by while she killed him. 

Or I could just be blithering.  

[Sabriana]

I agree, Creature. What he felt for Rinna was new, scary, and definitely disruptive. Taliesen was comfortable and safe, and he trusted him. It was an old relationship, and I don't doubt that he'd ask for proof before moving against Talisen.

[e-ver]

Sabriana wrote...

He does grow a lot during the course of the game. His break from the Crows is complete after Taliesen's death, and he knows it. Btw, thanks for the little insight into the toolset, I wish I could install it, blech.
He realizes that there is so much more to life. He tells the PC at one point "already it's been many new things", and later on he says "I've never done anything so worthy" (fighting the Blight).

Ah yes, the toolset. It took me countless hours over (stretched over almost three months) to get this thing installed, but I figure it was worth it for being able to look up dialogue trees, comments for the voice actors and the possibility to make unique faces for my characters.
But if you ever want me to look up some voiceover comments for you, just ask. (Not every line has one though.)

I agree, it's part of the beauty of the relationship with him, that the PC is the one to push open the door to the world for Zevran (regardless if by being his first true love or his first friend).

ejoslin wrote...

@ Allerleihrau

You could be
right, that he sided with Taliesen because of his feelings for Rinna. I
don't know. Everyone sees it differently for sure. I just saw Zev and
Taliesen as lovers, with RInna as a bit of an outsider to the team.
Zevran had to make a choice there, and he chose Taliesen.

And
you get the talk about Taliesen after the encounter with him, IF he
leaves. To get him to leave, have him romanced and at 70+ care or
BELOW, and do NOT answer, "Zevran doesn't need the crows any more."
He'll leave, and you can question him about it after the encounter.

And
I'm not surprised the toolset confirms they were lovers. It really is
very clear in that dialog that they are. The voice and the facial
expressions say so much.

You're of course right, it's open to interpretation.

Thank you for the instructions for getting this dialogue. I'm not sure how I'll manage to stay below 70 until this encounter (although I progress through the romance very slowly and often choose dialogue options that don't give the highest approval raises, I'm always in the high 80ies or 90ies when encountering Taliesen).

jenovan wrote...

Oh, WOW... confirmation from the toolset, even!  This is a great Taliesen/Zevran day. *mini-squee*

I
tend to agree with the idea that Zevran was willing to let Rinna be
killed (well, more than he might have been otherwise) because he was
afraid of what she represented, emotionally.  That whole "I convinced
myself it was"... to me it sounded like he was trying desperately to
find a reason or a way to get rid of these dangerous feelings.. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/sad.png 
I also think it's entirely possible that Taliesen felt something more
for Zevran than Zev felt for him, and that there may have been a
jealousy issue there... eek.    Edit: Taliesen does seem to feel a
certain protectiveness (or possessiveness?) for Zevran... his
willingness to lie about Rinna might be taken as him covering his own
ass, but he offers to help Zevran make up a story to go back to the
Crows, not to mention he volunteered to find him in the first place..

As for your last point, well, I don't think Zevran would have realized
he wanted someone/something free of the Crows (it was the only thing he
knew, after all), but that doesn't mean it wasn't true.   

I'm happy that you're happy about the Zevran/Taliesen confirmation. 

Yes, like you I've always gotten a protectiveness / possessiveness vibe from Taliesen. I think Taliesen does mean well for Zevran, but he (too) is a very messed up person in matters of the heart (pobably a lot more than Zevran, who despite everything still hasn't lost his ability to love and trust etc., even if it has to be dug up from deep within him).

As for Zevran realizing that Rinna was not what he desired: I should have said that clearer. I think he realized that only after joining the GWs' group of strays. When he was still with the Crows, he thought she was what he desired. But now that he has the ability to see things from a different perspective (as this comes up only when he has a high romance or friendship approval), he realized, that she was not. Does that make (more) sense?

Creature 1 wrote...
Another one of my sockpuppets!  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

Heh, English is not my first language and I've never heard this expression. But I gather (from your next line), that you agree, so I have decided that I'm honored to be your sockpuppet. *bows*  :happy:

Sabriana wrote...

I think Zevran sided with Taliesen
because he was the safer choice, at least in his mind. Rinna woke up
something that bothered him to the point of scaring him, while (for
Zevran) Taliesen was a friend with benefits (I love that expression),
but nothing more, nothing scary.
Yeah, Jenovan, the "I convinced
myself" is what makes me think that. He really worked hard to fight
whatever it was that Rinna woke up in him.
Thank you for the BM
advice, MorGothic. I'm glad that Evon's can be matched with other armor
and still gives a set-bonus.

ejoslin wrote...

I will never ever be convinced that
Zevran didn't have deep feelings for Taliesen. Never. He is too
heartbroken if are able to question him about his relationship to
Taliesen. His face is as sad as it is in any Zevran breakup scene.

It's
gut wrenching. Truly. His voice, his face -- really. I believed as well
they were FWB until I saw that. Now I really believe it was deeper.
Still not love -- Zevran didn't know love until the Warden. But
definitely not just FWB.

And I'm in the middle of you two. Rinna must have something that Taliesen didn't, otherwise she wouldn't have affected him as she did.
I agree with you, Sabriana, that Taliesen was the safe choice. He knew Taliesen, knew what to expect from him and how to "handle" him (for lack of a better word).
But then again, there must have been something deep between him and Taliesen, ejoslin makes a good point about that.
So in my opinion, Taliesen was the closest thing Zevran ever had to a friend. They were lovers (in my opinion with Taliesen having deeper feelings and Zevran seeing it more as a casual sex thing), but it was not until Rinna that Zevran opened his heart (a little).


[edit]

This thread moves so fast, my answer is already outdated! 

Modifié par Allerleihrau, 12 mars 2010 - 04:17 .

[ejoslin]

Creature 1 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I will never ever be convinced that Zevran didn't have deep feelings for Taliesen. Never. He is too heartbroken if are able to question him about his relationship to Taliesen. His face is as sad as it is in any Zevran breakup scene.

It's gut wrenching. Truly. His voice, his face -- really. I believed as well they were FWB until I saw that. Now I really believe it was deeper. Still not love -- Zevran didn't know love until the Warden. But definitely not just FWB.

In my depressing prequel fic which will never be finished, they met the day Zevran got bought by the Crows.  They were friends and survived the Crows, so I think in some ways they were closer than brothers (and not just the sex, before that!) 

There are different ways to love.  Zevran was scared of his feelings for Rinna because they were so disruptive.  But when you love a friend or brother or sister, it's a different kind of love.  Doesn't leave you unable to eat or sleep, thinking about them obsessively, getting butterflies when you see them, but it's there and real, and when it comes down to it you'd die for them.  I think Zevran's feelings for Taliesin were more like this, maybe stronger foundationally than what he felt for Rinna, but easier to ignore, so less threatening to him. 

If Rinna had told Zevran Taliesin betrayed them, he would demand to see the proof, not stand by while she killed him. 

Or I could just be blithering.  

I agree with you here.  I never said that Zevran was in love Taliesen -- I strongly believe that Zevran was never in love with anyone until he fell in love with the Warden.  But it was deeper than FWB.  Best friends who are lovers is what I see.
And yes, I definitely agree that if Rinna had told Zevran that Taliesen had betrayed them, he wouldn't have believed her.  And would have demanded proof.   And if she couldn't, he may have killed her himself.

Modifié par ejoslin, 12 mars 2010 - 04:16 .

[MorGothic]

ejoslin wrote...

EXCELLENT wall of text. I had no CLUE you got the set bonus if you used Evon's WITH Wade's Superior. How on earth? OMG! MY BM/AW is going to be completely badass!

I didn't know myself until I looked at The Dragon Age Wiki to see if there were any good Heavy boots and Gloves to go with it. I'd love to use this set for my DN but it would mean losing +30% Crit Damage from the Warden Commander Armor + Cailan's Gauntlets combo I'm using...*sigh*.

Oh it just occurred to me....Last AW Skill + Evon's + Spellward = 45% chance to dodge attacks....

[barkingM1]

So much for pretending to work. .  .

Regarding the Zev/Rinna/Taliesin dynamic (welcome ,Allerleihrau!) -  not sure I can put my thoughts coherently, but just a quick bit. 

I don't think a person may only fall in love one time in their life, so it's valid to say Zev felt 'love' for both Rinna and Taliesin.   Not healthy relationships, by any stretch, but the only  sort he knew how to have at the time.   (Like one's first love in middle-school - it's no less intense & real at the time for all that later relationsahips might be richer & more rewarding.)   I haven't had the chance to see the dialogue that hints at the Taliesin relationship, but I'm thinking that where Rinna's concerned, his feelings were indeed intense, and that's why he lashed out so drastically when he thought she'd betrayed him.   Coupled with that would have been the underlying mindset, a legacy of the abusive upbringing, to cling desperately to anything that offers some shred of self-esteem (however poisoned) which turns to "yes, you see?  I'm worthless - so of course she's been lying all along - why would anyone want me - make it go away." 

Gotta git - more later.

[ejoslin]

barkingM1 wrote...

So much for pretending to work. .  .

Regarding the Zev/Rinna/Taliesin dynamic (welcome ,Allerleihrau!) -  not sure I can put my thoughts coherently, but just a quick bit. 

I don't think a person may only fall in love one time in their life, so it's valid to say Zev felt 'love' for both Rinna and Taliesin.   Not healthy relationships, by any stretch, but the only  sort he knew how to have at the time.   (Like one's first love in middle-school - it's no less intense & real at the time for all that later relationsahips might be richer & more rewarding.)   I haven't had the chance to see the dialogue that hints at the Taliesin relationship, but I'm thinking that where Rinna's concerned, his feelings were indeed intense, and that's why he lashed out so drastically when he thought she'd betrayed him.   Coupled with that would have been the underlying mindset, a legacy of the abusive upbringing, to cling desperately to anything that offers some shred of self-esteem (however poisoned) which turns to "yes, you see?  I'm worthless - so of course she's been lying all along - why would anyone want me - make it go away." 

Gotta git - more later.

The reason I think Zevran didn't fall in love with either is when Zevran declares his feelings for the warden.  He says, among other things, when the Warden asks if he's in love, "I don't know.  How would you know such a thing?  I was raised by those who sold the illusion of love . . ."  To me, it seems this was something so completely new and foreign to him.  He couldn't even put the words to it.  He may have thought he was in love earlier, but actually being in love?  That was completely new.

Modifié par ejoslin, 12 mars 2010 - 04:26 .

[Sabriana]

I don't own RtO, so I have to find an alternate staff. I'm sure it shouldn't be a big problem.

[soulsweeper87]

Blessed be smart people with Toolsets :happy: It's good to know some things were not just in my head. And they wouldn't even be in my head if I hadn't started following this thread in the first place, I'm so clueless sometimes. And then I wouldn't love and appreciate Zevran as much as I do know .

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...
I will never ever be convinced that Zevran didn't have deep feelings for Taliesen. Never. He is too heartbroken if are able to question him about his relationship to Taliesen. His face is as sad as it is in any Zevran breakup scene.

It's gut wrenching. Truly. His voice, his face -- really. I believed as well they were FWB until I saw that. Now I really believe it was deeper. Still not love -- Zevran didn't know love until the Warden. But definitely not just FWB.

I've said this before, but my take always was:
a) Zevran and Taliesin were lovers; but
Rinna touched him in a way others including Taliesin had not.  This frightened him and his assassin training went into overdrive precisely because of his feelings for her.

I don't think this is inconsistent with his reaction about Taliesin.  Zevran, despite saying he's never had a friend, values friendship highly, especially a FWB since he seems to me someone for whom the physical is very important.

Excellent, excellent stuff out of the toolset!!  More reason to slobber over Charsen! (and others)  Thank you!

[Sabriana]

I love how anything Zevran never gets old around here. We all seem to agree on the Talisen/Rinna angle, one way or another, and I absolutely love reading all of it.

[ejoslin]

I honestly did not mean to imply in any way, shape or form that Zevran didn't have deep feelings for Rinna -- he says straight out that she touched something in him that frightened him. He obviously was infatuated with her. But I don't think Taliesen can be brushed off easily either. And I don't think he was in love with either.

@Sabriana That says something about the writing, doesn't it.  Because it doesn't get old.  I still get all squee every time Zevran reveals something new to my Warden, and definitely when he falls in love with her.  It is SO special!

Modifié par ejoslin, 12 mars 2010 - 04:37 .

[Sannox]

If Zevran did have deep feelings for Taliesin, it's interesting that he keeps quiet about them if he's in love with you. Yet again, he sorts out his own issues instead of dumping them on the warden, I suppose.
I still think the story about the mage means something. It sets him up for what happens with Rinna (when he let his guard slip, he was betrayed, so he accepts/expects betrayal next time). It's interesting that he chooses that story to tell.
I don't think he's looking for love or a partner - not consciously, anyway. I do think the fact that he fell for the mage, and then for Rinna, and then the warden, shows that his true nature is loving. I think that like most of the companions he's seeking for some sort of absolution. His past can't be put right, but being with the warden gives him a chance to love and trust (I suppose even friendship redeems him. It doesn't have to go as far as love). I don't think I can bear to play through the version where he does betray the warden. (I don't know if if would even be possible to get high enough approval to get the Rinna story and then get low enough so that he betrays you at the Landsmeet, but that would be devastating).

Modifié par Sannox, 12 mars 2010 - 04:43 .

[Sabriana]

I agree, Ejoslin. Taliesen was an old relationship, he was more like a brother/best friend (with benefits), safe and comfortable, tried and true.

Rinna was new, exiting, scary, and disruptive.

He loved neither, because he simply doesn't know how to yet. That comes later with the Warden.

Edited, because you have to around here. Everyone is too darn fast for me to keep up

Modifié par Sabriana, 12 mars 2010 - 04:40 .

[MorGothic]

Sabriana wrote...

I don't own RtO, so I have to find an alternate staff. I'm sure it shouldn't be a big problem.

Hmm if you the on the PC you can make your own using The Winter Forge mod [LINK].

If not... Staff of the Magister Lord - +6 Willpower
                                                             +2 Mana Regeneration in Combat
                                                             +6 Spellpower
                                                             +10% Fire Damage
                                                             +10% Spirit Damage

(Circle Tower - Purchased from Quartermaster)

It's a better staff generaly but it costs 124 gold...

Modifié par MorGothic, 12 mars 2010 - 04:41 .

[Sabriana]

That's expensive, MorGothic. I usually use all my PCs gold to get Zevran..., I mean my companions better gear. I have to see about finding a way to get some more for the staff. I've looked at WinterForge, but I'm a little scared of big mods. However, the options to stat up your gear yourself, and recoloring things is quite tempting.

Btw, with the 'Fade" mod, did you get your XP? I thought I read somewhere that the creator didn't put that in because s/he didn't know how much to give out.

[Cuddlezarro]

the skip the fade mod adds everything including exp you would get normally



it just lets you skip right to the good stuff (read the dreams)

[jenovan]

Creature 1 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I will never ever be convinced that Zevran didn't have deep feelings for Taliesen. Never. He is too heartbroken if are able to question him about his relationship to Taliesen. His face is as sad as it is in any Zevran breakup scene.

It's gut wrenching. Truly. His voice, his face -- really. I believed as well they were FWB until I saw that. Now I really believe it was deeper. Still not love -- Zevran didn't know love until the Warden. But definitely not just FWB.

In my depressing prequel fic which will never be finished, they met the day Zevran got bought by the Crows.  They were friends and survived the Crows, so I think in some ways they were closer than brothers (and not just the sex, before that!) 

There are different ways to love.  Zevran was scared of his feelings for Rinna because they were so disruptive.  But when you love a friend or brother or sister, it's a different kind of love.  Doesn't leave you unable to eat or sleep, thinking about them obsessively, getting butterflies when you see them, but it's there and real, and when it comes down to it you'd die for them.  I think Zevran's feelings for Taliesin were more like this, maybe stronger foundationally than what he felt for Rinna, but easier to ignore, so less threatening to him. 

If Rinna had told Zevran Taliesin betrayed them, he would demand to see the proof, not stand by while she killed him. 

Or I could just be blithering.  

I don't think you're ever just blithering!

I think that all makes perfect sense, and like Sabriana said, it sounds like we're all more or less agreeing on how this played out (which, to me, is a testiment to how clearly, or not, it's portrayed in the game .  "Best friends/virtual siblings who are also lovers" seems about right to me.. it's something obviously deep, but not the same thing as a romance -- at least, not from Zevran's view of the matter!

And probably not from Taliesen's, either... was thinking about this as I drove to lunch (sigh... pathetic  )... if, when confronting Taliesen, you say "Zevran belongs with me now", I'd always assumed that Taliesen interprets that as, the Warden is in love with Zevran and is sort of stating their relationship...  His reply is "You don't even know who you're talking about, do you?"  Without thinking too hard about it, to me that always sounded like, he's dismissing the affair as another of Zevran's purely physical flings. In light of the discussions here today, it kinda changes the feel of that line for me, somehow... I can't quite articulate it at the moment, but it has got to be a slap in the face for Taliesen when Zevran replies with "And neither do you"... Zevran's obviously changed, and, as Creature put it a few days ago, he just dumped Taliesen in front of everybody.   Going in with the assumption that they were lovers changes the feel of some of the dialogue considerably...

Augh, this is SO much more interesting than writing user manuals.

[ejoslin]

Sannox, the only time you can question Zevran about Taliesen is if he's romanced, but at 70 care or below AND if he leaves the fight. It makes sense to me, though. If he's not romanced, it really is irrelevant. If he IS romanced, but is at 71+ Adore or higher, it's also irrelevant -- he's over him. It's only if there are still feelings there, strong enough feelings that he cannot fight against either one, that he really owes an explanation.

I do agree that he's not looking for a relationship -- I think that is the last thing he wants. But I disagree that he fell for the mage. And I disagree to a point that he fell for Rinna. But both of those are open to interpretation.

Since his approval needs to be REALLY low for him to betray the Warden, it would be difficult, to get him to betray you, probably impossible. It would definitely be impossible if not romanced since he wont talk about Rinna to a friend until after Taliesen. But even with a lover, since I can only think of 3 conversations that could possibly come after Rinna (antiva, dalish, and his sexual history), even with the worst breakup at adore, I don't think you could get it that low. It may be worth trying, but not by me!

edit: @jenovan YES!  OMG!  That makes so much sense!  I mean, yes, the first response is so squee, but I like how you interpret that (especially since you can ONLY get that line at 71+ adore).  

Modifié par ejoslin, 12 mars 2010 - 04:52 .

[Cuddlezarro]

ejoslin wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

And Sabriana, there's NOTHING but a really mean comment here from a very evil person to suggest that will be Zev's fate.

Who?

Oh, who do I call evil around here?  Cuddlezarro of course!  And the context was me angsting over how many playthroughs I've had.  *grin* I suggested if I didn't like awakenings I could probably stop playing this game, and he suggested I wouldn't like awakenings if there was THAT in it.

Because he's evil. 

you know you love me and if we go by planescape torment Im Chaotic Neutral actually (thats the alignment I got when I played my self to the best of my ability lol)

Charsen Wrote...

....so... is your husband hot?
just kidding! ...*flee*

hah we all know you wasnt kidding

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 12 mars 2010 - 04:56 .

[Sabriana]

Oh nice. I'm going to get that and try it out, thanks Cuddles.

Sannox, I don't even think it's possible for me to play that. I didn't even like watching it on YouTube.

Even my (silly) mage who was besotted with Alistair had Zevran high enough to not betray her. She hadn't turned the romance on yet, and he stayed and fought as her good friend.