35177 réponses à ce sujet

[jenovan]

Whew, all kinds of activity this morning. XD

Sabriana wrote...
However, as far as Antiva goes, they are an accepted part of society, sanctioned (and used) by the governing bodies, and bound up tightly in the crown.

In Zevran's case, the slave has become the master, I just hope that he turned some practices on their collective ears. But we're never told that, of course.

Hmm... I suspect he may have changed *some* things... his hunting down the "four master assassins" sounded like perhaps he was trying to undo the organization from the top down.  Or perhaps that was revenge on particular individuals from his past... or perhaps he was simply demonstrating that he had what it took to be the master, himself.   The fact that "he couldn't say whether it was a good or bad thing" also makes it sound like it wasn't the same old Crows... just because there is that possibility that it *was* a good thing.

But, after his heart being broken, I could just as easily see him locking away all that was good in him, yes.

So much to speculate about. XD  Could be an interesting darkfic if one wanted to write their Warden out of a story and explore what happened to Zevran after that.  It does sound heartbreaking, but I'll have to try that ending once just to see it...

[Sabriana]

I disagree with you completely, Auridesion. Zevran will try to kill you if you ignore him, are nasty to him, and generally don't make it possible for him to trust you to help him escape his bonds. Makes perfect sense to me. It is very easy to get out of that slot and make it so that he won't fight with you, but he won't turn on you either.

All his conversations, except the first one or two show a deep insight into a very conflicted man who wants to trust and belong, but has a hard time figuring out how to do that without becoming utterly confused.

Enjoys Killing? Give Ejoslin's advice a go. Try some of the other options. You might lose points, but it's easy to regain them with Zevran. Very easy.

See him as you will, that is your right, but I don't believe you have tried to get a deeper insight into the man that is Zevran.

I agree with Creature. Alistair would have been completely and utterly broken to the point of no return. He is a very weak person. He couldn't even take the Chantry, the Crows would have had him for breakfast.

[ejoslin]

jenovan wrote...

Whew, all kinds of activity this morning. XD

Sabriana wrote...
However, as far as Antiva goes, they are an accepted part of society, sanctioned (and used) by the governing bodies, and bound up tightly in the crown.

In Zevran's case, the slave has become the master, I just hope that he turned some practices on their collective ears. But we're never told that, of course.

Hmm... I suspect he may have changed *some* things... his hunting down the "four master assassins" sounded like perhaps he was trying to undo the organization from the top down.  Or perhaps that was revenge on particular individuals from his past... or perhaps he was simply demonstrating that he had what it took to be the master, himself.   The fact that "he couldn't say whether it was a good or bad thing" also makes it sound like it wasn't the same old Crows... just because there is that possibility that it *was* a good thing.

But, after his heart being broken, I could just as easily see him locking away all that was good in him, yes.

So much to speculate about. XD  Could be an interesting darkfic if one wanted to write their Warden out of a story and explore what happened to Zevran after that.  It does sound heartbreaking, but I'll have to try that ending once just to see it...

My advice to you, if you do it, is make Anora solo queen, since if Alistair gives the eulogy, it's all focused on him.  However, if Anora gives it, when she acknowledges that people loved the PC, it gives a closeup of Zevran's face, which has a look on it that cannot be described.

Edit: The other face expression that is worth seeing is feeding Alistair to the arch demon when he's still in love (but dumped) and Zevran is in love when Alistair goes in for the kiss.  Keep in mind, Zevran knows how it ends (he's the first to tell the PC).  I really got the impression from his expression how grateful he was to Alistair.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 janvier 2010 - 02:33 .

[Auridesion]

ejoslin wrote...

And quite a few people disagree. I have no problem with you having your opinion, but you're making sweeping generalizations based on your perception of the character and refuse to see that other people see the character differently.  So it's a pointless conversation.  Peace!

Sweeping generalizations?  I disagree.  I agree with you (and most everyone here) that Zevran is indeed a deeply complex character, for many of the reasons that you yourself have pointed out, as a matter of fact.  I simply think it's easier to sum up his personality with an umbrella statement.  I'm not trying to be narrow minded -- I think we're simply disagreeing on semantics at this point, which is, as you say, a pointless conversation. 

I apologize if I caused any sort of frustration. 

[ejoslin]

Deleting troll feeding.  My apologies!

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 janvier 2010 - 02:36 .

[Jayelet]

Sabriana wrote...

I disagree with you completely, Auridesion. Zevran will try to kill you if you ignore him, are nasty to him, and generally don't make it possible for him to trust you to help him escape his bonds. Makes perfect sense to me. It is very easy to get out of that slot and make it so that he won't fight with you, but he won't turn on you either.
All his conversations, except the first one or two show a deep insight into a very conflicted man who wants to trust and belong, but has a hard time figuring out how to do that without becoming utterly confused.
Enjoys Killing? Give Ejoslin's advice a go. Try some of the other options. You might lose points, but it's easy to regain them with Zevran. Very easy.
See him as you will, that is your right, but I don't believe you have tried to get a deeper insight into the man that is Zevran.
I agree with Creature. Alistair would have been completely and utterly broken to the point of no return. He is a very weak person. He couldn't even take the Chantry, the Crows would have had him for breakfast.

Absolutely.

Alistair What is good? NO
It's just weak and cowardly, why? If
the PC is not a noble woman and make him king, he takes time to leave,
depending on the relationship can not continue because the assembly did
not approve. If you are an elf or dwarf ... You okay to go to bed, but not to reign at his side, even though you have earned that right.

Not for me not good, is weak and cowardly.


Edit: the final kiss very romantic if you had 20 years, if you exceed this age or what you think.

Modifié par Jayelet, 15 janvier 2010 - 02:46 .

[Sabriana]

Like I said, do what you will, think what you will. It is your right, and I'll be the first one on the barricades to defend your (and my) right to do just that.

I simply disagree that Zevran's personality can be put under the 'bad-boy' umbrella, especially because there are true bad boys with lots of charm out and about in the gaming world.

[Walina]

Is there a way to join your party earlier in the game ?

[_- Songlian -]

Earlier than gathering at least one ally? Nope. Doing The Broken Circle or The Nature of the Beast first is the quickest way to get him.

[Sabriana]

Personally, I find the Redcliffe arch the quickest. I tried this time around doing the tower first, but boy did I miss him.

However, I wanted to do at least one play-through saving both, Isolde and Connor. Not satisfying at all. Aside from that, the tower didn't feel right without the elf by my PC's side.

Pathetic. I know.

[Jayelet]

Walina wrote...

Is there a way to join your party earlier in the game ?

Yes, if you kill Isolde

Sabriana wrote...

Personally, I find the Redcliffe arch the quickest. I tried this time around doing the tower first, but boy did I miss him.
However,
I wanted to do at least one play-through saving both, Isolde and
Connor. Not satisfying at all. Aside from that, the tower didn't feel
right without the elf by my PC's side.
Pathetic. I know.

You can do the mission of the urn, then appears. But it is not easy without Zevran do this part.

Modifié par Jayelet, 15 janvier 2010 - 03:38 .

[jenovan]

Well, fastest is arguable per player, I guess ;D I think Redcliffe was brought up a lot here, too (and Redcliffe has virtually no character interest for Zevran, if you would like to take him around and hear his comments on the storyline as you go).

[AnniLau]

- Songlian - wrote...

Earlier than gathering at least one ally? Nope. Doing The Broken Circle or The Nature of the Beast first is the quickest way to get him.

I did Redcliffe and sacrificed someone.

Tah dah, Zevran!

[_- Songlian -]

AnniLau wrote...

- Songlian - wrote...

Earlier than gathering at least one ally? Nope. Doing The Broken Circle or The Nature of the Beast first is the quickest way to get him.

I did Redcliffe and sacrificed someone.

Tah dah, Zevran!

When I said "ally", I included the Arl. He is, technically, an ally to the PC, is he not?  

As for killing Isolde or Connor, sure. Whatever rocks your boat. 

[AnniLau]

- Songlian - wrote...

When I said "ally", I included the Arl. He is, technically, an ally to the PC, is he not?

Yes, but you also suggested two ally quests...I was just suggesting a third possibility. 

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

MAJOR ENDING SPOILER AHEAD.  Don't read if you don't want to know the final epilogue card of Zevran if you sacrifice yourself while romancing.  You have been warned!

This ending is so terribly sad...  ugh, no.  Could never do it.  I do think it underscores the fact that Zevran never meant for his Warden ambush to succeed.  My character (who's a "cunning" rogue and I try to RP her that way, not much gets past her) figured this out very quickly.  No assassin of Zevran's calibre would have used ragtag mercenary helpers in such an obvious ambush while she was surrounded with allies.  He would have worked alone, a knife-in-the-dark kind of way.  So putting two and two together with hearing his story, she figured out right there on the road what he was trying to do, though of course not til much later all that went into his decision to muck it.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 janvier 2010 - 03:46 .

[Sabriana]

Indeed you did, Songlian. We're all a bit on one track only when we talk about getting an 'ally' quick. Sort of a team-think situation, lol.



And true enough, the Redcliffe choices depend on the game you're in. Personally, I believe Isolde has to atone for her sins. She almost single-handedly wiped out everyone under her care as the arlessa. Simply because she couldn't bring herself to abide by chantry laws.



Jayelet, you don't have to do the 'ashes', as soon as the demon is defeated, the Denerim cut-scene pops up. Go to somewhere on the map, and then go to Haven. Zevran will be there to way-lay you.



True enough, Jenova, Zevran has the fewest inputs in Redcliffe. Another reason to get him that way, at least for me.

[ejoslin]

Ok, I did just another Alistair/Zevran comparison test (ROFL, WHY I do these I have no clue). Anyway, when Zevran offers the massage, you can turn him down, and there is no approval hit at all, and in fact, there are reasons why that is a better way to go. However, if you turn Alistair down, wow, -10! Hardened and non-hardened Alistair both give the hit. Hmmmm. He does tend to sulk when things don't go his way I guess.

[ejoslin]

jenovan wrote...

Well, fastest is arguable per player, I guess ;D I think Redcliffe was brought up a lot here, too (and Redcliffe has virtually no character interest for Zevran, if you would like to take him around and hear his comments on the storyline as you go).

I love Zevran in Redcliff.  He cheers you on if you shake down Lloyd, and he is the first one to comment that all that's going on has to be more than coincidence.  However, since Redcliff can be done in an hour or so, that's the one I do first now.

Edit: He also sometimes helps intimidate the elf spy there (can't think of his name), but I've only had that happen a couple of times -- I'm not sure who has to be in the party to get him to do that.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 janvier 2010 - 03:55 .

[Sabriana]

ejoslin wrote...

Ok, I did just another Alistair/Zevran comparison test (ROFL, WHY I do these I have no clue). Anyway, when Zevran offers the massage, you can turn him down, and there is no approval hit at all, and in fact, there are reasons why that is a better way to go. However, if you turn Alistair down, wow, -10! Hardened and non-hardened Alistair both give the hit. Hmmmm. He does tend to sulk when things don't go his way I guess.

Reasons? What reasons?

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Ok, I did just another Alistair/Zevran comparison test (ROFL, WHY I do these I have no clue). Anyway, when Zevran offers the massage, you can turn him down, and there is no approval hit at all, and in fact, there are reasons why that is a better way to go. However, if you turn Alistair down, wow, -10! Hardened and non-hardened Alistair both give the hit. Hmmmm. He does tend to sulk when things don't go his way I guess.

Reasons? What reasons?

If you want to get Zevran to switch from Adore to Love (while still really being in adore), it's best if you approach him, but you have to get him, I believe into the high 80s.  It may work with him approaching you IF you're an elf (different dialog selections are needed), but I'm not sure about that.  I do know that if you approach him after he's in adore, you can get it to switch.

Edit: This is just cosmetic, and for before the Taliesen encounter.  But it's fun to have up there.  However, it's best to have very high approval for this anyway since if you go to the tent before 100 after the switch, it goes back to adore.  However, if you raise it by gifts or conversation, it stays at Love.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 janvier 2010 - 03:58 .

[Sabriana]

Ohh, I did that. He's at 100 (adore) right now and they haven't slept with each other yet. What luck. I can go and try that out.

I'm glad I asked

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Ok, I did just another Alistair/Zevran comparison test (ROFL, WHY I do these I have no clue). Anyway, when Zevran offers the massage, you can turn him down, and there is no approval hit at all, and in fact, there are reasons why that is a better way to go. However, if you turn Alistair down, wow, -10! Hardened and non-hardened Alistair both give the hit. Hmmmm. He does tend to sulk when things don't go his way I guess.

Well speaking of Alistair and songs that remind us of the game, "Sexual Healing" comes to mind for Ali.    As I see it, he badly needs the PC's affirmation.  I don't think of this as a weakness any more than Zevran's background has weakened him.  Alistair has had a tragic upbringing, too, though not in the same way as Zevran.  I don't see Alistair as a weak person.  He needs someone to believe in him for him and not just as a warrior or warden.  He'll go on and do his duty anyway, but like Zevran, he does so much better when he can see a future for himself that is hopeful.

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

Ohh, I did that. He's at 100 (adore) right now and they haven't slept with each other yet. What luck. I can go and try that out.
I'm glad I asked

Though you get them in different ways whether an elf or not, you do have to end with asking him about love!  My biggest problem with talking to Zevran is keeping the approval low enough while spacing the conversation enough that he will refuse to talk about Rinna the first time asked.  In many ways, it's a bit TOO easy to raise his approval.

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Ok, I did just another Alistair/Zevran comparison test (ROFL, WHY I do these I have no clue). Anyway, when Zevran offers the massage, you can turn him down, and there is no approval hit at all, and in fact, there are reasons why that is a better way to go. However, if you turn Alistair down, wow, -10! Hardened and non-hardened Alistair both give the hit. Hmmmm. He does tend to sulk when things don't go his way I guess.

Well speaking of Alistair and songs that remind us of the game, "Sexual Healing" comes to mind for Ali.    As I see it, he badly needs the PC's affirmation.  I don't think of this as a weakness any more than Zevran's background has weakened him.  Alistair has had a tragic upbringing, too, though not in the same way as Zevran.  I don't see Alistair as a weak person.  He needs someone to believe in him for him and not just as a warrior or warden.  He'll go on and do his duty anyway, but like Zevran, he does so much better when he can see a future for himself that is hopeful.

but a -10 approval drop!  That's HUGE!  Especially since if you break up you don't get a loss at all.  I was expecting a difference between hardened and unhardened.Alistair, but with both, ouch!  Poor Ali is going to remain unhardened and marry Anora this time through I think.  I haven't had him unhardened since my first play through and I've never seen unhardened Alistair as king. 

Edit: My real point is in all these comparisons is how the Alistair and Zevran romances are complete opposites.  I'm not an Alistair fan, but I find the contrasts between the two romances very striking. 

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 janvier 2010 - 04:16 .