35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Minaleth]

ejoslin wrote...
You two have no commitment, and he made it painfully obvious in many ways that you are free to do what you want, he won't make a claim on you, that it is just something to do for fun. When you turn down the earring because it doesn't mean anything, you are letting him know that is no longer enough for you.

I respectfully disagree. I read in first proposal that it means a LOT and for me it's more than enough, more than I would expect in this situation.
Don't get me wrong I love th chance to acknowledge the commitment form both sides, but I would love it happens some other way.

ejoslin wrote...
At least, that's how I see it. It's always been my reaction, though. I thought I was telling Zevran right there that my warden wanted more -- and since it may end up with a proposal, it could be he took it that way as well.

Apparently so. It was meant like you see it here. But it doesn't change the fact that I wouldn't do it THIS way and it makes me feel bad

BTW thank you for excellent discussion so far, it's quite intellectually engaging

[MutantSpleen]

One thing I will say too, this was the first play where I really started taking Zevran (he is amazing) and he also has some of the funniest dialogue in the game.

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

Hmm, seeing as that the forcing of a choice doesn't come until he hits 71+, it's not too OOC, in my opinion (must tack that on, it's an single player RPG after all). That is also the point in the relationship where he stays and fights Talisen, and where he opens up about Rinna.
It seems that he hits a point there, where he himself feels that he somehow got in deeper than he ever expected to get. He is in territory he was never in before, and he doesn't know what to do or how to do it. My PC does want strings attached, and she wants him to know it.

I agree with this.  He cares deeply for the Warden once it hits 71+ adore.  He shows that in many ways.  He may not have hit "love" yet, but there's something there that he's still fighting feeling.  He doesn't mind her having sex with other people at that point, but he does not want her actually caring for anyone else.

When he's forcing her to choose, if you push him on it, he'll admit that there's more between them than just sex.

With both Alistair and Zevran (and maybe Morrigan, I don't know) it's not that feelings suddenly develop when they switch from adore to love.  It's that their feelings deeping to the point where they're forced to confront what they're feeling and what exactly that means.  With Alistair, he has to face what his becoming king actually means to the relationship, with Zevran, he has to face that he is feeling something that he never even realized existed.

Hah, maybe!

[Minaleth]

Sabriana wrote...

Hmm, seeing as that the forcing of a choice doesn't come until he hits 71+, it's not too OOC, in my opinion (must tack that on, it's an single player RPG after all). That is also the point in the relationship where he stays and fights Talisen, and where he opens up about Rinna.
It seems that he hits a point there, where he himself feels that he somehow got in deeper than he ever expected to get. He is in territory he was never in before, and he doesn't know what to do or how to do it. My PC does want strings attached, and she wants him to know it.

Good point.
It could have better impact (on me) if the approval didn't get high that fast (must manage better in next game), I sort of have bad timing feeling sometimes because of this.

[ejoslin]

Minaleth wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
You two have no commitment, and he made it painfully obvious in many ways that you are free to do what you want, he won't make a claim on you, that it is just something to do for fun. When you turn down the earring because it doesn't mean anything, you are letting him know that is no longer enough for you.

I respectfully disagree. I read in first proposal that it means a LOT and for me it's more than enough, more than I would expect in this situation.
Don't get me wrong I love th chance to acknowledge the commitment form both sides, but I would love it happens some other way.

Oh, i mean the reason you GIVE him for turning down the earring is because it doesn't mean anything.  I think the exact quote is, "I don't want it if it doesn't mean anything."  Obviously it means something.

Edit: Fun fact, if you're romancing him, you can have his approval high enough for him to give the poetry reading before leaving the ambush sight with just one gift.  He definitely needs his conversations paced. I make a point of not asking about his final mission before the gauntlet.

If you take him to the tent first, you can have him at 100 adore before finishing half his conversations, even if you only go once!  +23 approval.  Your warden is just THAT good!

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mars 2010 - 12:36 .

[Sabriana]

Hi MutantSpleen.

If you ever have any questions about Zevran, may I recommend the very splendid Zevran FAQ, available through just a click of the mouse in Ejoslin's signature.

And I might just stick my neck waayy out, but we do agree with your assessment of Zevran.

Edited because somebody stole my "h" from my keyboard

Modifié par Sabriana, 15 mars 2010 - 12:38 .

[jenovan]

g'morning all!

I must address this first:  Charsen! The Zevran-gams pic is mine  (Although feel free to spam at will, I certainly don't get tired of it ;D)

MutantSpleen wrote...

One thing I will say too, this was the first play where I really started taking Zevran (he is amazing) and he also has some of the funniest dialogue in the game.

Hehe, even as a friend, Zevran is an awesome companion to take around, for his combat bad-assery and hilarious (and insightful) commentary

I need a fresh post for the earring discussion... *rubs hands together*

[ejoslin]

Welcome mutantspleen! My faq is VERY unsafe for the wanting-to-be-unspoiled but remarkably free from my interpretations of the romance!

@Sabriana, heh, that's like sticking your neck out for saying the sky is blue!

@jenovan, yay!  I know you probably see it TOTALLY different.  I love reading how everyone sees it.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mars 2010 - 12:42 .

[MutantSpleen]

Do you all use the default Zev face?



I switched up to the Dragon Age Redesigned one. Version 5 with the dark hair and the short bangs rather than pulled back. HOT!

[Minaleth]

ejoslin wrote...
Oh, i mean the reason you GIVE him for turning down the earring is because it doesn't mean anything.  I think the exact quote is, "I don't want it if it doesn't mean anything."  Obviously it means something.

Ah so that changes meaning a bit
But still... That sentence goes against every aspect of my personality. I know I want the damn earring, and I know it already means something. I could never ever bring myself to say something like this IRL. I think this particular wording is the core of my problem with refusing the earring first time. Just changing the sentence to "I would love to have it ... if it means something." is some improvement.

ejoslin wrote...
Edit: Fun fact, if you're romancing him, you can have his approval high enough for him to give the poetry reading before leaving the ambush sight with just one gift.  He definitely needs his conversations paced. I make a point of not asking about his final mission before the gauntlet.
If you take him to the tent first, you can have him at 100 adore before finishing half his conversations, even if you only go once!  +23 approval.  Your warden is just THAT good!

 Indeed.

[Minaleth]

jenovan wrote...
I need a fresh post for the earring discussion... *rubs hands together*

Tell us! *is very curious*

[ejoslin]

Ah, Minaleth, I think that's the difference. That comment is completely like me. I do tend to force issues quite often -- I'm a very upfront person (not one of my most endearing traits). If I were in a physical only relationship but wanted more, I think my reaction would be exactly the same. "I want YOU, not a gift. I want more than just no-strings. We can keep going like this, but not with half promises."

My poor husband! He's so funny and laid back; the type to just go along with things. Then again, he proposed to me during our first fight (hahahaha, seriously, it stopped the fight immediately for sure) so maybe I don't see arguments as necessarily unloving things!

Edit: @MutantSpleen I have modded Zevran (Zevran 7 with the jowon hair and original tattoo) but I actually prefer him unmodded.  I just like his face.  Especially his mouth.  I am so weird, but I LOVE his mouth -- how it just softens his entire face.

*sigh* Pixels.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mars 2010 - 12:57 .

[Sabriana]

*taps foot*
Jenovan? Are you there?

I agree, Minaleth, the wording is awkward. Just as the hardening of Alistair as Ejoslin points out. It seems a bit abrupt, and I'd love it if my PC could explain herself a bit better. But she definitely wants strings attached. She's deeply in love with him, after all.

Modifié par Sabriana, 15 mars 2010 - 12:58 .

[jenovan]

*cracks knuckles*

I've actually been thinking about how to approach the earring situation from a story perspective... I agree that maybe the actual dialogue where the first refusal takes place could be handled differently (kind of like Alistair's hardening, like ejoslin mentions.. I *hate* that conversation!)... but it definitely comes down to how your character wants to handle it, I suppose :3

My CEM would probably word things a bit differently, but while he understands what Zevran may not be saying, he is a (hopeless) romantic, and after all this time and harrowing experiences, he wishes Zevran could manage to say a few things... not even "I love you", but.. in that first earring conversation, Zev can't even say "you mean a lot to me", he literally backs out of that, and then can't answer a yes or no question about whether the earring is a token of affection or not.  This particular PC is a bit hurt by that, just as he was by Zevran's love brush-off after their first time together (although he understands the reason behind both, it still hurts) ... and while it's really hard to turn Zevran down, he does.  (Perhaps he also wonders if Zevran is still in a bit of a state after the fight with Taliesen, and wants to give him time to think about whether he really wants to hand over one of his most prized possessions...)

I think, after Zevran's tent-refusal, that scenario would lead into the PC offering Zevran that "out" when the earring comes up for the second time: "Maybe it would be better for you if we stopped."  PC is struggling with the fact that hey... maybe this really, seriously can't work out as something long-term, despite what it seemed like before... and then Zevran springs the earring again. 

My mage, on the other hand, would most likely take the earring the first time.  He's not so great with the mushy feelings himself, he approached the affair as very casual on his end as well, and he'd be moved by the gesture even without getting into something deeper.

That leads me to ask, and I don't know if anyone's tried anything like this!...
Is it possible to get the earring in Denerim at the time of the final fight? *grins*  My RP scenario would be: PC is romancing Morrigan, had broken up with Zev once (the romance is restartable)...  Morrigan springs the Ritual on the PC, who does it, even expected some trick like this, but is furious about it and has nothing more to do with her afterwards.  He turns back to Zevran in these final days before the battle... and I would think, technically, if Zev is high-Friendly, if one switched his romance back on, he'd flip to Love and could offer the earring? Heh.  Filling in the space between the lines on that one would be amusing...

Modifié par jenovan, 15 mars 2010 - 01:03 .

[ejoslin]

jenovan wrote...

*cracks knuckles*

I've actually been thinking about how to approach the earring situation from a story perspective... I agree that maybe the actual dialogue where the first refusal takes place could be handled differently (kind of like Alistair's hardening, like ejoslin mentions.. I *hate* that conversation!)... but it definitely comes down to how your character wants to handle it, I suppose :3

My CEM would probably word things a bit differently, but while he understands what Zevran may not be saying, he is a (hopeless) romantic, and after all this time and harrowing experiences, he wishes Zevran could manage to say a few things... not even "I love you", but.. in that first earring conversation, Zev can't even say "you mean a lot to me", he literally backs out of that, and then can't answer a yes or no question about whether the earring is a token of affection or not.  This particular PC is a bit hurt by that, just as he was by Zevran's love brush-off after their first time together (although he understands the reason behind both, it still hurts) ... and while it's really hard to turn Zevran down, he does.  (Perhaps he also wonders if Zevran is still in a bit of a state after the fight with Taliesen, and wants to give him time to think about whether he really wants to hand over one of his most prized possessions...)

I think, after Zevran's tent-refusal, that scenario would lead into the PC offering Zevran that "out" when the earring comes up for the second time: "Maybe it would be better for you if we stopped."  PC is struggling with the fact that hey... maybe this really, seriously can't work out as something long-term, despite what it seemed like before... and then Zevran springs the earring again. 

My mage, on the other hand, would most likely take the earring the first time.  He's not so great with the mushy feelings himself, he approached the affair as very casual on his end as well, and he'd be moved by the gesture even without getting into something deeper.

That leads me to ask, and I don't know if anyone's tried anything like this!...
Is it possible to get the earring in Denerim at the time of the final fight? *grins*  My RP scenario would be: PC is romancing Morrigan, had broken up with Zev once (the romance is restartable)...  Morrigan springs the Ritual on the PC, who does it, even expected some trick like this, but is furious about it and has nothing more to do with her afterwards.  He turns back to Zevran in these final days before the battle... and I would think, technically, if Zev is high-Friendly, if one switched his romance back on, he'd flip to Love and could offer the earring? Heh.  Filling in the space between the lines on that one would be amusing...

It is possible to get it the first offer then.  It's just you can't complete the romance without going to the tent.

Edit: I excessively quoted you, because I agree with you and want to say . . . THIS!

You described exactly how I felt during my first playthrough.  And so it's very easy for me to RP it that way.  I'm not sure I could RP a character who accepted it the first time.  I probably used poor wording when I called myself "mean" for that in my first post.  I don't think it's mean.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mars 2010 - 01:07 .

[jenovan]

MutantSpleen wrote...

Do you all use the default Zev face?

I switched up to the Dragon Age Redesigned one. Version 5 with the dark hair and the short bangs rather than pulled back. HOT!

I use my own mod.

[jenovan]

ejoslin wrote...

It is possible to get it the first offer then.  It's just you can't complete the romance without going to the tent.

Hmm, is there any more to it if you take the earring the first time, though? *grins*  (Legitimate question -- I have no idea!)

[ejoslin]

jenovan wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

It is possible to get it the first offer then.  It's just you can't complete the romance without going to the tent.

Hmm, is there any more to it if you take the earring the first time, though? *grins*  (Legitimate question -- I have no idea!)

Yes.  The only thing that is different is you don't get the proposal.  But there's a promise there, anyway.  

Edit: But as you know, you do have to talk to him in camp to complete the romance.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mars 2010 - 01:09 .

[Minaleth]

ejoslin wrote...
Ah, Minaleth, I think that's the difference. That comment is completely like me. I do tend to force issues quite often -- I'm a very upfront person (not one of my most endearing traits). If I were in a physical only relationship but wanted more, I think my reaction would be exactly the same. "I want YOU, not a gift. I want more than just no-strings. We can keep going like this, but not with half promises."

My poor husband! He's so funny and laid back; the type to just go along with things. Then again, he proposed to me during our first fight (hahahaha, seriously, it stopped the fight immediately for sure) so maybe I don't see arguments as necessarily unloving things!

I see So I might be more into subtle manipulation or upfront reasonable discussion but without unnecessary conflicts in both cases. And the dialogue option is neither, I find it rather conflicting and I don't like it. I imagine I could talk Zev into admitting everything right in the first conversation without anyone feeling uncomfortable or offended. 

Besides I sort of consider refusing a gift an offense (culture bias?) regardless of everything.

Interesting how all this affects gameplay...

[Sabriana]

I think (and I'm sure there are people who are sure, hehe) that you need to have the opportunity to ask him to the tent, and he needs the opportunity to refuse for the romance to complete.

[jenovan]

ejoslin wrote...

jenovan wrote...

Hmm, is there any more to it if you take the earring the first time, though? *grins*  (Legitimate question -- I have no idea!)

Yes.  The only thing that is different is you don't get the proposal.  But there's a promise there, anyway.  

Edit: But as you know, you do have to talk to him in camp to complete the romance.

Ahhh, interesting!  Now I want to see how that goes.   Damn, and there are no camp opportunities after the DR...

(Actually, the strongest reason I'd want to even stick with Morrigan that long is to see if the DR is any different when you're romancing her -- obviously she can't blackmail the PC with mention of one's lover... does she try a "won't you do this for me?" heh. XD  Buuuut I suppose I could always just try that as a test, not as canon. *grins*)

[Sabriana]

Minaleth wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Ah, Minaleth, I think that's the difference. That comment is completely like me. I do tend to force issues quite often -- I'm a very upfront person (not one of my most endearing traits). If I were in a physical only relationship but wanted more, I think my reaction would be exactly the same. "I want YOU, not a gift. I want more than just no-strings. We can keep going like this, but not with half promises."

My poor husband! He's so funny and laid back; the type to just go along with things. Then again, he proposed to me during our first fight (hahahaha, seriously, it stopped the fight immediately for sure) so maybe I don't see arguments as necessarily unloving things!

I see So I might be more into subtle manipulation or upfront reasonable discussion but without unnecessary conflicts in both cases. And the dialogue option is neither, I find it rather conflicting and I don't like it. I imagine I could talk Zev into admitting everything right in the first conversation without anyone feeling uncomfortable or offended. 

Besides I sort of consider refusing a gift an offense (culture bias?) regardless of everything.

Interesting how all this affects gameplay...

My PC isn't so much refusing the gift as such, she wants to give him the opportunity to see that she cares deeply for him. He means something to her, and therefore won't accept the earring if it is meaningless to  him. It seems to have an impact because he realizes that he his wanted, that she does see him as more as a pleasant diversion, and the earring is offered again, this time with his committment.

[jenovan]

ejoslin wrote...
My poor husband! He's so funny and laid back; the type to just go along with things. Then again, he proposed to me during our first fight (hahahaha, seriously, it stopped the fight immediately for sure) so maybe I don't see arguments as necessarily unloving things!

Awww, that is adorable. XD

Minaleth wrote...

I see So I might be more into subtle manipulation or upfront reasonable discussion but without unnecessary conflicts in both cases. And the dialogue option is neither, I find it rather conflicting and I don't like it. I imagine I could talk Zev into admitting everything right in the first conversation without anyone feeling uncomfortable or offended. 

Besides I sort of consider refusing a gift an offense (culture bias?) regardless of everything.

Interesting how all this affects gameplay...

Hmm, yes, I think the gameplay mechanics tangle things a bit.

But yeah -- I think it would be perfectly logical to be able to resolve this situation in a single conversation, rather than driving Zevran to vexation.  It's interesting -- I wonder what the writers', or game directors', thought process was behind "hiding" that second offer that way.

[ejoslin]

Minaleth wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Ah, Minaleth, I think that's the difference. That comment is completely like me. I do tend to force issues quite often -- I'm a very upfront person (not one of my most endearing traits). If I were in a physical only relationship but wanted more, I think my reaction would be exactly the same. "I want YOU, not a gift. I want more than just no-strings. We can keep going like this, but not with half promises."

My poor husband! He's so funny and laid back; the type to just go along with things. Then again, he proposed to me during our first fight (hahahaha, seriously, it stopped the fight immediately for sure) so maybe I don't see arguments as necessarily unloving things!

I see So I might be more into subtle manipulation or upfront reasonable discussion but without unnecessary conflicts in both cases. And the dialogue option is neither, I find it rather conflicting and I don't like it. I imagine I could talk Zev into admitting everything right in the first conversation without anyone feeling uncomfortable or offended. 

Besides I sort of consider refusing a gift an offense (culture bias?) regardless of everything.

Interesting how all this affects gameplay...

Eeeep!  I did not mean to imply that at ALL!  I don't think the way I force issues is a good thing; it's one of my character flaws, really. Sorry if it seemed I was saying ANY of those things about you.  That never even crossed my mind.

See, I also imagine explaining to Zevran why I'm refusing it.  He does seem to understand why.  I do agree that the dialog there is not good -- it's awkward, but you can make it sound like your warden is telling him that her feelings are now more, and now deeper.  Or you can be an ass and tell him to keep his earring.  Or you can accept it, and you know, you do end up with a beautiful dialog -- it just stops short of being a proposal.  But unless you let Zevran know you want it to be more (after all, you were very accepting of it being casual if you didn't break it off for that reason when he established that), then it's asking a lot for him to assume that.

Poor guy, no matter what!  But he ends up SO happy no matter what you do. 

Edit: What Sabriana said.  You'd think with English being my native tongue, I'd be better at communicating in it!

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mars 2010 - 01:21 .

[Sabriana]

That's a good way to put it, Jenovan. It is hidden away, and had my silly mage not been so gun-shy after being publicly dumped, I would've never found out about the second offering unless I read about it. (Or played through again, making different choices)