35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Sresla]

Dear lord, I'm awake early enough that I can participate in a real time conversation, not quote something from 4 hours ago.

Just adding that I think the whole earring thing comes down (more than anything) to your character and how you view the relationship. From the standpoint of my mage, his own inclination towards members of the same sex has been something that has never been... there's a word I'm searching for but I can't think of it at the moment, gone smoothly is the best I can come up with having just woken up. In his teens he was ridiculed and scorned. As an adult, the relationships were few but always with humans, which is a whole different set of problems seeing how most humans view elves (some without even meaning to be that way) as little better than servants and worst case, slaves. After a while, he just gave up and just tried to act like it was unimportant to getting on with his life.

So for him, to put himself out there with Zevran was a big deal at the Taliesin encounter (Zevran belongs with me, now). The implication about the earring might be there, but here's where Jenovan and I agree - it wasn't even the fact that it wasn't some big flowery speech, but the fact that Zevran couldn't say it at all. And then the mage's personal doubt about the relationship sets in, which includes things that Zevran himself says during the course of the relationship (like, when he says he thinks he prefers women) so the whole earring offering is highly angstful. What tips the scales to rejection is when Zevran says that the Warden can just sell the earring or whatever - if he had skipped to the "It's meant a lot to me but so have... so has what you've done", he might have been more willing to read between the lines.

[Sannox]

I haven't done a full Alistair or Morrigan romance. I'm planning on doing Alistair with my HNF, which will mean resisting Zevran (is it possible, once you know?).



My male elf took every opportunity on offer, and there seem to be more available for male PCs. There were two kisses in Redcliffe that female PCs don't seem to have an equivalent of. There's the opportunity of Gheyna instead of Cammen (sorry if I'm spelling these wrong) in the Dalish camp. I think the only one I turned down was the desire demon. I dumped Leliana for Zevran, of course, but started up with Morrigan and she was quite fun below 70%, and she and Zevran seemed happy for that relationship to continue.



I agree that males are set up to romance Morrigan and females Alistair, and both romances are usually doomed, one way or another. It's a bit cruel, really .

[Charsen]

Oddly enough I felt set up to romance Leliana. I said sure, you can join us... and next thing I know, I have a dialogue option that's like "Yeah uh we gotta talk...lolwat"



I seriously don't even know how I turned on the Leliana romance.

[ejoslin]

Sannox, it's not possible. It just isn't! Good thing you dont' actually have to be in a romance with Alistair to marry him, or else my HNF would never have been queen.



And YES, Sresla and Jenovan, it's the point that Zevran can't admit anything at ALL -- not that I want Alistair-type confessions. I wouldn't want that from Zevran, tbh. I love the harshness of the Zevran romance.

[ejoslin]

Charsen wrote...

Oddly enough I felt set up to romance Leliana. I said sure, you can join us... and next thing I know, I have a dialogue option that's like "Yeah uh we gotta talk...lolwat"

I seriously don't even know how I turned on the Leliana romance.

You must have complemented her shoes.

[Addai]

Sabriana wrote...

I wish I would be able to just start my DC. She is so pretty (and so patient), but I don't seem to be able to get over the arms. Why, oh why do the female dwarfs have such Orang-Utan arms? The dwarf males don't. That is so not fair.

I've been observing my DNF and I think it must have to do with the wider hips in the dwarf female.  There might be clipping issues when her arms swing if they were straighter/ more natural?

Not to sound like I know what I'm talking about, but that's the only thing I can come up with.

[Creature 1]

Sresla wrote...
As an adult, the relationships were few but always with humans, which is a whole different set of problems seeing how most humans view elves (some without even meaning to be that way) as little better than servants and worst case, slaves.

This.  I imagine the human male PC/Zevran tent scene is typical of the situation in Thedas--human always tops.  That makes me wish even more there was a dialogue option to switch things around. 

[Ramante]

I'm back, I was allowed to leave after 10 minutes. Go me!

Long story short: Since I was little I had to ge at least once a month to the hospital, I got a lot of medical issues going on (I would be surprised if I reach the age of 30). The last 5 years I had to go to the hospital at least 4 times a month, so that's why I practically live there. I had 4 different doctors in the last 3 months and they all said different things, so I wish they knew what they were talking about because it really pisses me off that they still don't know what I have.



About the earring...

During the first earring convo I think it is quite obvious that Zevran loves the Warden but he is afraid to say it and not because he doesn't know how the Warden feels. When you refuse it after asking if it means something he gives you a 'You are a very frustrating woman to deal with, do you know that?'

My interpretation is that he loves the Warden, but that he doesn't want to be forced to acknowledge it, not to her but to himself. He's really having an inner conflict about his feelings. During the second conversation he has somehow made/find(?) his peace with the whole idea of loving the Warden.



I hope this short interpretation of mine makes sense, it sounded good in my head. But right now I'm not really in the mood to make a very long and explaining answer.. I might come back on this subject later. And I will probably edit my post like 10 times before I think it is what I want. o.o'

[Sabriana]

ejoslin wrote...

Charsen wrote...

Oddly enough I felt set up to romance Leliana. I said sure, you can join us... and next thing I know, I have a dialogue option that's like "Yeah uh we gotta talk...lolwat"

I seriously don't even know how I turned on the Leliana romance.

You must have complemented her shoes.

Lordy, I did it somewhere in the 'hair' conversation. I still don't know what option did it. My poor PC. You could've blown her (and me) over with a feather when Leliana started "So, Zevran told me you two are intimate.":crying:

[Sabriana]

Creature 1 wrote...

Sresla wrote...
As an adult, the relationships were few but always with humans, which is a whole different set of problems seeing how most humans view elves (some without even meaning to be that way) as little better than servants and worst case, slaves.

This.  I imagine the human male PC/Zevran tent scene is typical of the situation in Thedas--human always tops.  That makes me wish even more there was a dialogue option to switch things around. 

Oh my. If I ever do get around playing a male, I have to remember to play an elven man. I don't think I like the implications, mainly because they feel disturbing to me.

Yeah, that might be, Addai. Or they let the person who designed the mage hats design the dwarf-women arms

Ramante, {hugs}

[Ramante]

Sabriana wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Charsen wrote...

Oddly enough I felt set up to romance Leliana. I said sure, you can join us... and next thing I know, I have a dialogue option that's like "Yeah uh we gotta talk...lolwat"

I seriously don't even know how I turned on the Leliana romance.

You must have complemented her shoes.

Lordy, I did it somewhere in the 'hair' conversation. I still don't know what option did it. My poor PC. You could've blown her (and me) over with a feather when Leliana started "So, Zevran told me you two are intimate.":crying:

She always 'traps' me in the hair conversation. I think it is belachelijk (I'm not going to translate it, the meaning is to obvious), I talk to my friends about hair (and shoes) sometimes, that doesn't mean I love them! And she always falls for the Warden without permission, the good thing about Zevran is that checks like 10 times if you are in anyway interested.

FTW, someone made a 'I can't romance Leliane' thread. o.o'

*hugs Sabriana* x3
*hugs CZ because he is huggable*

Modifié par Ramante, 15 mars 2010 - 03:13 .

[AnniLau]

"Having had her way with him, Sereda subsequently dumped Zevran for Alistair."



(Hey, my Dalish broke up with everyone for him...Ali needs some lovin' too! And there's just something so adorable about short girls with tall guys... <3)

[jenovan]

G'morning Sresla and Charsen.~ 

Umm.. I love everything you said, Sresla (and I want to see it in written form some day ), so I'll refrain from quoting much of that just to agree vigorously XD

Creature 1 wrote...

Sresla wrote...
As an adult, the relationships were few but always with humans, which is a whole different set of problems seeing how most humans view elves (some without even meaning to be that way) as little better than servants and worst case, slaves.

This.  I imagine the human male PC/Zevran tent scene is typical of the situation in Thedas--human always tops.  That makes me wish even more there was a dialogue option to switch things around. 

I just have to pretend in my head that they do.  :/  (Same goes for the elf/elf, really... ) I mean, if nothing else, variety is the spice of life, right?  

(Not even getting into the fact that my male!Amell is more of a bottom anyway...)

@Ramante, glad you're back, although that truly sucks when doctors can't figure something out... gah.  *hugs*
As for your interpretation of the earring, I think it makes perfect sense -- it's Zevran's inner conflict that's causing him the most problems, I think.  That's the kind of thing that leads to him refusing the tent.  But he works his way through it eventually.

[Addai]

Sannox wrote...

I haven't done a full Alistair or Morrigan romance. I'm planning on doing Alistair with my HNF, which will mean resisting Zevran (is it possible, once you know?).

Well, I think it is.    My characters struggle more now that I "know," but my HNF really loves Alistair.  Heh, I was relaoding and playing around last night, had him duel Loghain, and I think she would have tackled him for a hot lip-lock right in the LM chamber after all that.  Something about having your life on the line and then seeing your man take charge and handle it for you...

I agree that males are set up to romance Morrigan and females Alistair, and both romances are usually doomed, one way or another. It's a bit cruel, really .

Yes, I also reloaded my Dalish elf who romanced Alistair last night and I could definitely see why people go to Zevran on a rebound.  It stings to be reduced to mistress, no matter what.

[Sannox]

ejoslin wrote...

Sannox, there's an alternative dialog with Alistair which is basically the same, and Alistair DOES joke it off, but in a non-brutal way. Alistair is definitely playful and loving there -- Zevran, I don't think he is.

I remember the Alistair dialogue, but can't remember exactly what his response was.  I agree that Zevran isn't really being playful there, but I think that (as with Alistair) your words come across as playful, and he has to respond to that.  He's offering you the gift seriously, and you're making light of it.  (At least that's the way I read it, but it's very open to interpretation, and I don't have any great conviction that my interpretations are the right ones .)  I find it difficult to see it as the PC genuinely thinking that they were married - why would they think that?  And if they don't think that - well, they're making fun of him, a little. 

And I think we all agree that something deeper is going on. I've not once seen anyone say anything different.

Oh, definitely.  What I really meant was that both you and him (the PC and Zevran, rather than the player) know it's deeper.  You don't need his confession to tell you that - you already know.  So when you push him, you're not pushing him to find out that it means something - you know it does - you're pushing him to say it out loud.  (And again, I'm not saying that I disagree with that option as such - I chose it myself first time round, but then couldn't bear his reaction).  He doesn't hide the fact that it means something or that the relationship is now something deeper.

Playing around with various dialogs is always interesting. There is so much there that is not seen unless you do. If you want to hear Zevran say he loves the warden? Break up with him while he's in love. It's the only time you get those words, when he calls him/her "my love." It's horrible, breakups with him, I don't care if you read the transcripts -- the voice acting is so incredible.  I warn you NOT to do it unless you want to feel horrible for hours afterwards!

I also think there are differences between the male and the female romances interact. The dialog differences are subtle, but they're enough that it would give a lot of these talks a different feeling entirely.

Edit: I did.  I almost did more too, but I'm trying to get through Orzammar!  And clean my house!

I did have a look at breaking up, but you're right, it did make me feel awful.    The voice acting is great, sometimes understated but very powerful.  (I wonder if Jon Curry's wife ever makes him do the Zevran voice?  I so would!).  

It was interesting playing as a male.   There are a few options for the your PC to be wary of a same sex relationship, and I like the way Zevran does not apologise for his sexuality.  Even at the end, when he offers the earring, there's an option to question the manliness of it, but he doesn't let that put him off at all.

[BlastedLands]

Sabriana wrote...



But...but what about Leliana?
*ducks*

I've always wondered how a PC would feel about Leliana. Zevran, well, the Warden knows he's an assassin, and s/he also knows that he was after her/his hide. But doesn't Leliana 'fess up much later on? Gah! I so wish I wouldn't get so bored playing a maleWarden. Or that Leliana wouldn't set off my "don't want" alert as a femWarden.

It might be an interesting experience to play through a Leliana romance, but my fems can't resist Zevran, and I can't play a man. It feels weird. Besides, he most likely would also end up with Zevran.

yeah, that's the thing about leliana, once you get to know her past, you got to know her quite a bit. so it's harder to judge her then.... i think she's creepy anyways, so it doesn't matter to me, and none of my pcs actively romanced her. stress on "actively"<_<

however, i'm off to talk to some tattoo guy... catching up later:wizard:

Sannox wrote...

  Even at the end, when he offers the
earring, there's an option to question the manliness of it, but he
doesn't let that put him off at all.

edited to add that i found that very line quite awesome.

*sneaking out*

Modifié par Haerja, 15 mars 2010 - 03:21 .

[Swifty]

Sabriana wrote...

It really seems that way, Minaleth, the story really is geared toward shock and surprise for non noble PCs romancing the future King. Alistair is very charming, the romance is sweet at the beginning. My mage did turn the Zevran romance on somehow, but it must have been late in the game because there never was a forced choice by either one. So Zevran playing cavalry and coming to the rescue was a surprise. A very pleasant one.
I call my mage silly, but it was an endearing play-through, really. But the silly girl stubbornly refused to see the writing on the wall with regards to her romance with Alistair. She (and I) was quite shocked at Alistair's outburst at the Landsmeet, she wanted to heed the older and wiser Grey Warden's advice. So she let him kill Loghain, only to be dumped almost immediately afterward. In public. It was a piece of great writing, Ejoslin, I agree. Both my PC and I were shocked.
Your mage was smarter than mine, Barking

lol @ Haerja

If one plays it out as a city elf, there's a conversation where the  PC can confront Alistair about his racist comments in the beginning. Even if he is made king alone he still dumps the PC leading to her being able to tell him that he used and abused her just like every other human she's known. He doesn't even deny it if I recall correctly.

Now if we think about this a second it means that the PC is supposed to be loyal to Alistair's friendship by doing what he wants about beheading Loghain regardless of whether or not that PC has justified reasons or not--but he doesn't have the same obligation to the PC when it's not to his political advantage. Good piece of writing, that.

The interesting part I found was that my PC didn't trust humans--ever. Not the king, not the GW and not the human party members. And Alistair won her over then betrayed her. Then the idiot leaps the dragon anyway stealing her thunder, Anora [another betrayer when she's rescued] gets yanked out of jail and crowned. Argh. By this time my PC went from simple mistrust to hating every human on the planet.

Zevran the elf friend, then will try to pick up the pieces to some degree. I'm not sure if the writers meant it to come off that way--but it did.

And much as it angers everyone, it is not realistic writing in the end that the Bannorn would not give Anora a hard time as Queen  after Loghain is deposed, Alistair would have a hard time with them as well and the PC on the throne or married to either one would be considered a bit of an upstart either way. That doesn't mean they wouldn't manage somehow but it certainly wouldn't "happily ever after" because that simply isn't how conflict in feudal politics was resolved without a king beheading or banishing a few nobles as an example to the others.

Realisitically the Dalish have some back and forth with the humans and the humans find Shianna abrasive but she does a fine job of fighting for the rights of the alienage. That's realistic.

I found the "slam dunk" political happy ending most unsatisfying.

[Swifty]

@Sabriana:



Have you considered playing a gay male? He wound up as my fav PC, actually. He was certainly the most emotionally complex and the one who "grew" the most during his adventures.

[ejoslin]

Yeh, I just have to go back to, given limited dialog, it's much like the hardening of Alistair and Leliana. You don't have to do it, and it may seem brutal at the time, but it pays off for everyone involved.

What I think is far more brutal than turning down the earring is marrying someone else after everything is established. HOWEVER, there are interesting dialog changes if you get engaged to Alistair after the first offer of the earring but before the second. Same ending, him referring to it as a problem, but different beginning and middle.

[edit] I think the transcripts show that Zevran views the relationship differently from the first offer of the earring and the second.  At the first, he is completely not admitting to anyone, even himself, that he has a future with the warden.  Of course, this is only my interpretation.  But in the incomplete romance, he's expecting it to end once the blight business is taken care of.  Even if you've taken the earring. [end edit]

Transcripts -- make of it what you will. But I think that Zevran is not quite viewing the relationship the same way.  Not that his feelings are different, but he has not come to terms with his feelings yet.

Complete romance:
Zevran: So have you heard the rumor about the future queen? She has an elven fellow on the side. Handsome, naturally.
Warden: Naturally
Zevran: He is no dummy either.
Zevran: I know how things are. I shall make it easy for you. What we have... if it can no longer be, then it can no longer be.
Warden: There's no reason it has to end.
Zevran: Oh? I must admit I do love a good royal scandal.
Zevran: Let us continue on, then. We can always discuss this more later... provided one of us is not eaten by a dragon. And if so, problem solved.

Incomplete romance:
Zevran: So... there is a rumor going about. This beautiful woman I know, she is to marry a king. The things people will say!
Warden: You aren't... upset, are you?
Zevran: Upset? No, no, not at all.
Zevran: I know how things are. I shall make it easy for you. What we have... if it can no longer be, then it can no longer be.
Warden: There's no reason it has to end.
Zevran: No? I had assumed... we have become close over time, you and I. I simply thought once this all ended...
Zevran: But if you say nothing is to change, then I am glad.
Zevran: Let us continue on, then. We can always discuss this more later... provided one of us is not eaten by a dragon. And if so, problem solved.

Edit: more than indicated for SURE

Second edit: Of course, he LOOKS and sounds so heartbroken during both of these, ugh!

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mars 2010 - 03:44 .

[Addai]

I think it was my comment that started the whole "refusing the earring is mean" convo... so I'll say that I do feel badly for Zevran, but like ejoslin I see it as analogous to hardening Alistair. As in other instances in the game, there are unintended consequences to doing what seems the kind and gentle thing. Your PC needs to be "hardened" a bit, or she will not make either a good Warden or a good friend or lover.

[Charsen]

I hope they figure out what's wrong, Ramante. Be well. (hug)  Also, I must still have morning brain because that belachelijk thing isn't obvious to me... 


err, so I played a HM. tbh, a mage is also low in societal view, from what i could tell, perhaps not as low as elves, but i figured my mage would have viewed an elf as someone with a similar social standing. even so i dunno if that was the sole factor in who tops, and my HM would have switched for Zevran but not for Alistair...... ~is it too early? it's probably too early for this 

[Swifty]

I personally find there are cultural differences in how one percieves certain characters in the game.

I don't know if the writer's intended this or realized this and some of that has caused writing oversights such as very few NPC's talk about the Orlesians in negative terms and they ruled brutally less than 30 years before. Those kind of colonialist scars don't heal in 30 years. Or how that impacts on Arl Eamon's marriage and ithe general perception of Orlesians or the general treatment of elves as a brutalized minority. I was just waiting for some NPC all game to say, "And whaddya YOU want ya pointy-eared piece of crap?" or some such--yet it never happened even with drunks in the taverns.

Not once do the elves talk about genocide, either and considering the Great March or whatever it was called where they were crusaded against and nearly wiped out--you'd think it would be a topic of bitterness, mistrust and conversation far beyond a few campfire tales.

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

I think it was my comment that started the whole "refusing the earring is mean" convo... so I'll say that I do feel badly for Zevran, but like ejoslin I see it as analogous to hardening Alistair. As in other instances in the game, there are unintended consequences to doing what seems the kind and gentle thing. Your PC needs to be "hardened" a bit, or she will not make either a good Warden or a good friend or lover.

I actually see not getting the earring and proposal but still have a very devoted partner far gentler and happier than the brutal dumping you get from Alistair if he's not hardened.  And WHO hardens Alistair if they are romancing him if they don't metagame?  No one!  It's just that the Alistair romance is far more common, so the way to make it continue got out very quickly.  More and more people are learning about the second offer of the earring now.  The only reason it's not better known is Zevran is not (yet hahahaha) the most popular of the romance characters.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mars 2010 - 03:48 .

[Sannox]

Thanks for those transcripts, ejoslin. That's really interesting.



I think it's harder than hardening Alistair or Leliana. It's more personal, and at a more crucial point in the relationship. You have to hurt somebody who has always put you first and would never say anything to hurt you (even if it is only in the short term). Or rather, it's easy to do when you don't know it will hurt him, harder afterwards.



The transcripts - it seems as if he is less sure of the warden's feelings with the incomplete romance. I suppose that's because you haven't had the opportunity to ask about the proposal.



What is it a proposal of? It's not marriage (it's the same for a man, and judging by the transcripts, he doesn't seem to see the royal marriage as breaking the terms of the proposal).

[Sabriana]

I usually just go in with eyes wide shut, Swifty. I'm not counting out any of the romances, at least in my first play-through. My mage got hooked to Alistair. Leliana scared the beejeeses out of her, and Zevran was the winner by simply being far more complex than a casual friendship allows to see.

Playing my first male would go the same way. However, I have the distinct feeling that Zevran will beat out Morrigan, and I can't for the life of me imagine that my malePC would not be put off Leliana. But how knows? It would be interesting. However, I'm so easily side-tracked. I have a dalish lingering in Lothering, and a DC sitting in the holding bin. *Sigh*