35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

I can think of several instances where my elves either overheard being called a knife-ear, guards in the Arl of Denerim's palace speculating that Howe was so cheap he was cooking up the elves, the chatter over the elven riots, nasty confrontations with various Chantry types, and so on.

As for Orlais, that does seem to have been put to rest for most people. Alistair tells you that Isolde was a controversial choice for arlessa, but otherwise she seems to have been accepted. I think a key thing is that most Orlesians were kicked out or left voluntarily. You encounter very few of them, and Leliana tells you her mother chose to go when Cecilie returned to Orlais. So any threat seems remote at game-time.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 mars 2010 - 03:51 .

[ejoslin]

Sannox wrote...

Thanks for those transcripts, ejoslin. That's really interesting.

I think it's harder than hardening Alistair or Leliana. It's more personal, and at a more crucial point in the relationship. You have to hurt somebody who has always put you first and would never say anything to hurt you (even if it is only in the short term). Or rather, it's easy to do when you don't know it will hurt him, harder afterwards.

The transcripts - it seems as if he is less sure of the warden's feelings with the incomplete romance. I suppose that's because you haven't had the opportunity to ask about the proposal.

What is it a proposal of? It's not marriage (it's the same for a man, and judging by the transcripts, he doesn't seem to see the royal marriage as breaking the terms of the proposal).

The alternative to the royal scandal just happens if you agree to marry Alistair before completing the Zevran romance.  It will even trigger after the first rejection to the tent, and the earring is irrelevant. I guess what is telling to me is he says he assumed that once the blight thing was over, they were as well.  Even if you accepted the earring, he's not seeing a commitment there -- or at least not admitting to one.

Also, when you think about what the characters have to overcome, it all is pretty much at the same point. Alistair needs to learn that people in the world have their own self-interests at heart, and he needs to start looking out for himself. It destroys a central belief.  Leliana's faith that the religious way she has clung to to avoid facing the uglier part of her self is also destroyed.  And Zevran believing that he is unable to love and be in a loving relationship is destroyed.

Edit: The difference with Zevran is you STILL end up in a committed, loving relationship.  You just don't get the proposal. And I think the proposal means whatever the player takes it as.  You don't even have to take it as a proposal.  However, it obviously is a way of confirming a very deep relationship.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mars 2010 - 03:58 .

[Sannox]

I think he already makes a commitment when you ask him to stay and he says he will as long as you want, until one of you dies. He commits,, but it's the warden who has more difficulty committing. Such frustration with the dialogue choices! Accepting the earring means that you (the warden) don't get as much chance to show your commitment to him (suggest it's a proposal later). So maybe you're 'hardening' yourself, as well.

(ETA: this is an absolutely fascinating discussion.  Thank you ).

Modifié par Sannox, 15 mars 2010 - 04:06 .

[ejoslin]

*grin* That he does. I like the thought that you're hardening the warden as well. *sigh* It's rough doing what's best for everyone, no matter how much it hurts.

Edit: I think the earring actually has a different meaning between the first and second offering.  It comes with that growing up that Zevran does by finally acknowledging he's in love.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mars 2010 - 04:14 .

[jenovan]

Swifty wrote...

I personally find there are cultural differences in how one percieves certain characters in the game.

I don't know if the writer's intended this or realized this and some of that has caused writing oversights such as very few NPC's talk about the Orlesians in negative terms and they ruled brutally less than 30 years before. Those kind of colonialist scars don't heal in 30 years. Or how that impacts on Arl Eamon's marriage and ithe general perception of Orlesians or the general treatment of elves as a brutalized minority. I was just waiting for some NPC all game to say, "And whaddya YOU want ya pointy-eared piece of crap?" or some such--yet it never happened even with drunks in the taverns.

Not once do the elves talk about genocide, either and considering the Great March or whatever it was called where they were crusaded against and nearly wiped out--you'd think it would be a topic of bitterness, mistrust and conversation far beyond a few campfire tales.

Hmm, I wonder if some of that is just a technical decision... there's only so much incidental gossip/conversation to be put in a game, and they've established that history pretty well... maybe the developers didn't feel like they needed to put the resources in to dwell on it heavily.

(As for anti-Orlesian feelings, as well as political intrigue in general, you might want to check out the Awakenings Penny Arcade comic if you haven't.  XD)

Hmm... there are plenty of unpleasant things said to at least a male city elf in passing.  Goldanna is a great example.. what she said to my elf actually made ME angry! XD  There's the ferryman at the tower -- he says some really racist stuff without even thinking about it, a sign of a problem ingrained in society... there are a few bits here and there.  Probably not as many as there would realistically be, sure, but yeah, again, that would get down to recording different dialogue for so many NPCs... XD

(LOL, also, I'd probably be wary of insulting an elf openly carrying weapons, personally. )

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

I actually see not getting the earring and proposal but still have a very devoted partner far gentler and happier than the brutal dumping you get from Alistair if he's not hardened.  And WHO hardens Alistair if they are romancing him if they don't metagame?  No one!  It's just that the Alistair romance is far more common, so the way to make it continue got out very quickly.  More and more people are learning about the second offer of the earring now.  The only reason it's not better known is Zevran is not (yet hahahaha) the most popular of the romance characters.

I don't know about this.  Zevran never breaking through to be able to acknowledge- to himself or you- that the relationship means more is not the happiest of fates.  You still have a partner, but not an honest relationship.  But I guess if you don't have the extra metagame knowledge, you could be blissfully unaware that that's what has happened.

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

I don't know about this.  Zevran never breaking through to be able to acknowledge- to himself or you- that the relationship means more is not the happiest of fates.  You still have a partner, but not an honest relationship.  But I guess if you don't have the extra metagame knowledge, you could be blissfully unaware that that's what has happened.

He does acknowledge his feelings, though, and asks for a future with the warden -- the only difference between the two is the proposal.  Hmmmmm.  I'll have to think about this. I think either way the ending is beautiful, with or without the proposal.  But yes, it's more meaningful with the proposal of course.  But I don't think what they have is dishonest, even if you don't go there.

I said earlier that I think the earring itself has far different meanings between the first offering and the second offering.  With the first, it IS a thank you.  For helping him, for caring for him, for being so special to him.  With the second, obviously, it's a commitment.  But he makes that commitment anyways I think.  *sigh* There is NOTHING straight forward about the romance, is there.

[Charsen]

jenovan wrote...
Hmm... there are plenty of unpleasant things said to at least a male city elf in passing.  Goldanna is a great example.. what she said to my elf actually made ME angry! XD 

Actually, if i ever do a non-zevran mod, it'll be a mod that does something absolutely wretched to that woman. I don't even like alistair but that skank was a hag and a half, and i actually felt sorry for the guy. 

[Sabriana]

But what do you really think, Charsen? Don't hold back just to be polite.

[jenovan]

Charsen wrote...

jenovan wrote...
Hmm... there are plenty of unpleasant things said to at least a male city elf in passing.  Goldanna is a great example.. what she said to my elf actually made ME angry! XD 

Actually, if i ever do a non-zevran mod, it'll be a mod that does something absolutely wretched to that woman. I don't even like alistair but that skank was a hag and a half, and i actually felt sorry for the guy. 

LOL. A (Slap her.) option would be awesome. ;D  Seriously, maybe she has reasons to be bitter, but how can you be so mean to a puppy like Alistair? 

I wonder what she says to a noble? Or a woman?  I know she still insinuated that my male mage was a servant (and unlike Alessar, Devin would slap her, given the choice...).

[Sresla]

Slap Isolde mod before Slap Goldanna mod, plz, thx.

[Charsen]

Sabriana wrote...
But what do you really think, Charsen? Don't hold back just to be polite.

cool then i also think it's funny how her name is Goldanna and she is just a nasty Golddigger
creative guys, creative

[Addai]

jenovan wrote...

I wonder what she says to a noble? Or a woman?  I know she still insinuated that my male mage was a servant (and unlike Alessar, Devin would slap her, given the choice...).

She calls you a tart.  "Some tart following him around to carry his riches," I believe.

[ejoslin]

jenovan wrote...

Charsen wrote...

jenovan wrote...
Hmm... there are plenty of unpleasant things said to at least a male city elf in passing.  Goldanna is a great example.. what she said to my elf actually made ME angry! XD 

Actually, if i ever do a non-zevran mod, it'll be a mod that does something absolutely wretched to that woman. I don't even like alistair but that skank was a hag and a half, and i actually felt sorry for the guy. 

LOL. A (Slap her.) option would be awesome. ;D  Seriously, maybe she has reasons to be bitter, but how can you be so mean to a puppy like Alistair? 

I wonder what she says to a noble? Or a woman?  I know she still insinuated that my male mage was a servant (and unlike Alessar, Devin would slap her, given the choice...).

She calls a female human a tart who's following him around for his riches.

Edit: Just noticed the ninja!

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mars 2010 - 04:57 .

[jenovan]

Sresla wrote...

Slap Isolde mod before Slap Goldanna mod, plz, thx.

Hmm, I have to QFT XD  Even Alessar would have slapped Isolde! 

Ooh, and thanks Addai & ejoslin!  I was wondering if she'd insinuate that the femPC was Alistair's wench or something. I guess "tart" sort of goes that way...

Modifié par jenovan, 15 mars 2010 - 04:49 .

[AnniLau]

Sresla wrote...

Slap Isolde mod before Slap Goldanna mod, plz, thx.

But you can already punch Isolde if you choose the correct option!

[Sannox]

Addai67 wrote...
I don't know about this.  Zevran never breaking through to be able to acknowledge- to himself or you- that the relationship means more is not the happiest of fates.  You still have a partner, but not an honest relationship.  But I guess if you don't have the extra metagame knowledge, you could be blissfully unaware that that's what has happened.

I think it is an honest relationship either way.  The earring comes at a very emotional time for him.  He's just killed Taliesin (his ex-lover, although you don't know that), and is free for the first time in his life.  You've asked him to stay and he's promised to stay with you till death.  His difficulty in talking about love is completely genuine, I think, not dishonest. Although he knows what he feels, he really doesn't know if it's love, because he has such bad associations with love.  I think that given time he would be able to think it through and say more, either way.  And either way, he apologises and explains himself.  The proposal is as much about you admitting your feelings as him, I think - it's the warden who suggests that it's a proposal, not him.  But I do think he acknowledges that the relationship means more, either way.

[Charsen]

Yeah imo we need:

slap isolde for teeeeaaaaaagan and being such a witch, humorously enough
slap goldanna for said reasons
slap alistair for everything
slap tom bombadil guy in the woods for being a wtf
slap jowan for being a tool
slap ser jory to save his life
slap conner into the next abomination
slap leliana and her shoes
slap sten, twice
slap wynne til she approves
slap that chantry witch in Ostagar that was so rude to my dalish elf
slap cullen, because he'd like it
just off the top of my head.

EDIT: sorry for jumbled text, sometimes my posts don't save the returns for some reason.

Modifié par Charsen, 15 mars 2010 - 04:56 .

[Sresla]

Speaking of Cullen, I see there's a mod now to turn on the flirt for male mages. Tempting, although I think I'm with David Gaider on this one...

If I wrote a Cullen "romance" it'd have to be creepy as hell.

Cullen: I just want you to know... I love you.
PC: I love you, too.
Cullen: No, no... I REALLY love you!
PC: Er... and I love you, too.
Cullen: You don't understand! I think about you all the time, every waking moment! I look at you and I... I want to touch your skin! I want to brush your hair!
PC: I don't...
Cullen: Ever since I saw you in the mage tower I wanted to protect you. Keep you somewhere safe. FOREVER.
PC: ...
PC: ...awkward.

I think this might be prologue fodder. Sort of like the straw that broke the camel's back regarding my mage and having a relationship with any more humans.

Oh, and hey, Charsen, I fixed this for you. You typo'ed.

slap zevran, because he'd like it

Modifié par Sresla, 15 mars 2010 - 05:01 .

[jenovan]

Charsen wrote...

Yeah imo we need:

slap isolde for teeeeaaaaaagan and being such a witch, humorously enough
slap goldanna for said reasons
slap alistair for everything
slap tom bombadil guy in the woods for being a wtf
slap jowan for being a tool
slap ser jory to save his life
slap conner into the next abomination
slap leliana and her shoes
slap sten, twice
slap wynne til she approves
slap that chantry witch in Ostagar that was so rude to my dalish elf
slap cullen, because he'd like it
just off the top of my head.

EDIT: sorry for jumbled text, sometimes my posts don't save the returns for some reason.

omg, I totally burst out laughing in my cubicle here. XD!!!
(The mental images this entire list creates are a RIOT. )

[jenovan]

Sresla wrote...

I think this might be prologue fodder. Sort of like the straw that broke the camel's back regarding my mage and having a relationship with any more humans.

Sandor? And Cullen?


(I think my appreciation for Cullen actually stems from the fact that he'd likely never work in a healthy relationship with a mage.  Working with that is entertaining, in that "I enjoy building my characters by tormenting them" sort of way...)

Modifié par jenovan, 15 mars 2010 - 05:02 .

[Charsen]

Sresla wrote...
I think this might be prologue fodder. Sort of like the straw that broke the camel's back regarding my mage and having a relationship with any more humans.

Yeah, I didn't have that mod for my human mage and so I never really noticed Cullen. I only played part of the intro of my elven mage but he did have the Cullen mod. ...I had no idea how weird Cullen was when you have the flirt turned on. I'm not sure if it's awkwardly cute or "it puts the lotion on its skin" though

[ejoslin]

Sannox wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I don't know about this.  Zevran never breaking through to be able to acknowledge- to himself or you- that the relationship means more is not the happiest of fates.  You still have a partner, but not an honest relationship.  But I guess if you don't have the extra metagame knowledge, you could be blissfully unaware that that's what has happened.

I think it is an honest relationship either way.  The earring comes at a very emotional time for him.  He's just killed Taliesin (his ex-lover, although you don't know that), and is free for the first time in his life.  You've asked him to stay and he's promised to stay with you till death.  His difficulty in talking about love is completely genuine, I think, not dishonest. Although he knows what he feels, he really doesn't know if it's love, because he has such bad associations with love.  I think that given time he would be able to think it through and say more, either way.  And either way, he apologises and explains himself.  The proposal is as much about you admitting your feelings as him, I think - it's the warden who suggests that it's a proposal, not him.  But I do think he acknowledges that the relationship means more, either way.

Hmmmmmm.  About the proposal -- I believe Zevran was proposing.  Here's why (if you're strong, you can do this, if not, you'll have to trust me). After asking him if it's a proposal, if he says, "Not unless you wish it," tell him, "No, that's too much." His reaction, at least for me, erased ANY doubt that Zevran meant what he said as a proposal.  I will give you a hint, it starts with something like, "Then what you and I feel for each other is not enough?"  Then it gets even worse. 

Edit: I've only done this twice, and it's been awhile, and I'm not sure I can do it again to get exact wording. 

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mars 2010 - 05:06 .

[Creature 1]

Sresla wrote...

I should attach this to my signature!  

[Addai]

Sannox wrote...
I think it is an honest relationship either way.  The earring comes at a very emotional time for him.  He's just killed Taliesin (his ex-lover, although you don't know that), and is free for the first time in his life.  You've asked him to stay and he's promised to stay with you till death.  His difficulty in talking about love is completely genuine, I think, not dishonest. Although he knows what he feels, he really doesn't know if it's love, because he has such bad associations with love.  I think that given time he would be able to think it through and say more, either way.  And either way, he apologises and explains himself.  The proposal is as much about you admitting your feelings as him, I think - it's the warden who suggests that it's a proposal, not him.  But I do think he acknowledges that the relationship means more, either way.

He'll stay with you even as a friend, or if you kiss him after Taliesin and the status remains at Adore, so that's not really the issue.  And I don't mean that he's not genuinely conflicted.  But what kind of relationship is it if he is never able to say to you even so much as "yes, this is a token of affection"?  The idea is that (potentially) there is never a breakthrough to where he can admit to himself and to you that the relationship is what it is.

And yes, part of the problem with both Ali and Zevran is that game time artificially truncates things.  Running that scene with DE last night, Alistair says the heartwrenching line "I'm going back to camp... I want to be alone for a while" and it is easy enough for me to picture a hardened Alistair coming to her later and saying "I've thought about it and I was an idiot."  With Zevran also, it's entirely logical that even if his breakthrough doesn't come right then, it could later off-screen.