35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

@cz, you enjoy that Isolde picture almost as much as the Wynne Disapproves. LOL

[Swifty]

Addai67 wrote...

@Swifty: Eamon's take on it is also a product of his post-trauma about the Orlesian occupation. However, he is coming at it from the Calenhad royalist perspective. What he did to Alistair as a child was to protect Cailan's rule (besides the whole thing with Isolde), what he does to Alistair in game is also to protect the Theirin throne. The occupation was only ended because Fereldans rallied around a Theirin. As he tells you, he fears that without that unifying force, the country will not hold together. Loghain still takes paranoia much further, however. Eamon didn't poison anyone.

To keep it on topic, I wish our PCs could ask Zevran's opinion on all this. He has a fine understanding of politics, though Ferelden seems to baffle him a bit.

If Eamon was so traumatized he wouldn't be taking on an Orlesian trophy wife. Sorry, can't buy that one. I "get" that he wants to keep the throne intact and doing so, if he had any stones at all, he could have either kept the rumour going that Alistair was his or just sluffed Alistair off as some wench's kid he took a shine to.

Eamon didn't poison anyone and Eamon is not dead. If Loghain wanted him dead--he'd have used a deadly poison. Let's not assume Loghain kicked out the Orlesians by being an idiot. No, Eamon did *nothing* about his wife who was responsible for the very people he was responsible as an Arl, to protect. That's all I need to know about him. So they sob and weep. So what? How many more idiot moves will he let that woman pull that results in the death of others? For that he is responsible. Period. No getting away from it. He's either a gutless wonder, gaga over a woman to the detriment of his responsibilities or he's scheming. Take your choice.

I too wish when it comes to political choices such as Harrowmont/Bhelan and Loghain/Alistair that we could ask our companions as well as those directly affected by the decisions. I brought this up when Bioware asked for input on DA2. I also agree that Zevran is a great one to ask--he gives clear and logical advice. If I was King--I'd want him at my right hand because he sees right through all the scheming bullcrap:ph34r:

[Cuddlezarro]

Addai67 wrote...

@cz, you enjoy that Isolde picture almost as much as the Wynne Disapproves. LOL

Its Isolde any excuse to see her punched in the face is enough reason for me to post it

[ejoslin]

Well, Swifty, Zevran DOES advise you when it comes to Bhelen/Harrowmont at least.



See, I can keep things on topic. Sometimes . . . Though you probably already knew about that snippet, and of course you can't ask him.

[Sannox]

ETA: I'm talking about Isolde.  I don't type fast enough!

Was it just so that Connor could inherit, though? She lays down her life for him, when it comes to it, without much of a thought. Maybe she couldn't bear the thought of him going to the Circle. I don't think many mothers could. In a way, I can understand her position better than the mothers who are happy to pack their unfortunate mage children away (like Jowan's mother). Or have I missed something in the game (I often do?)?

Modifié par Sannox, 15 mars 2010 - 06:40 .

[Swifty]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

Swifty wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

Eamons such a untrustworthy bastard I should have baited mroe darkspawn to him during the final battle and taken screenshots

Well he never got out alive with me either. Too bad wifey wasn't there and she's screwed [depending on the inheritance laws for women in Fereldon] because Connor is off to mage school and with Eamon dead she's not getting preggers again. Of course Teagon was another idiot so maybe she'll seduce him, now.

The Truth about Eamons poisoning

Can't remember who it is but they tell you the rumour that Eamon's wife is having an affair with Jowan as well. The rumour mill is alive and well in Fereldon, it seems....

[Charsen]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

Charsen wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote..
edit: also instead of a slap isolde mod we a need a Punch isolde in the face mod like you can do when you kill conner

if a punch isolde mod was made, i'd have to sync it to imogen heaps' oo whatcha say and have it on slo-mo.

*warning Mass Effect 1 Spoiler*
Exactly what should be playing when Isolde gets punched

Modifié par Charsen, 15 mars 2010 - 06:43 .

[Charsen]

*sighs*ignore this post.

EDIT: here is a non-spoiler version with the same sentiment and use of the song in question.

Modifié par Charsen, 15 mars 2010 - 06:45 .

[Cuddlezarro]

not watching the ME video but I assume its the hilarious(expecially when she falls tot he ground and it sounds like to wooden blocks clonking together) Punch the annoying reporter lady in the face video

and I know iv seen you people the same thing in ME2...I wonder if you can punch her in the face again in ME3

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 15 mars 2010 - 06:43 .

[Addai]

Swifty wrote...
If Eamon was so traumatized he wouldn't be taking on an Orlesian trophy wife. Sorry, can't buy that one.

If you can't see that it's a love match, I don't know what to tell you.  Alistair tells you straight up that it is and certainly the in-game interaction confirms that.

I "get" that he wants to keep the throne intact and doing so, if he had any stones at all, he could have either kept the rumour going that Alistair was his or just sluffed Alistair off as some wench's kid he took a shine to.

So because he was honest, he's evil?  LOL

Eamon didn't poison anyone and Eamon is not dead. If Loghain wanted him dead--he'd have used a deadly poison. Let's not assume Loghain kicked out the Orlesians by being an idiot. No, Eamon did *nothing* about his wife who was responsible for the very people he was responsible as an Arl, to protect. That's all I need to know about him. So they sob and weep. So what? How many more idiot moves will he let that woman pull that results in the death of others? For that he is responsible. Period. No getting away from it. He's either a gutless wonder, gaga over a woman to the detriment of his responsibilities or he's scheming. Take your choice.

You're not being logical here.  The undead are a result of the poisoning, not prior to.  We have no indication that Isolde did anything more egregious than try to prevent having her child taken away from her.  Eamon couldn't do anything about the undead because he was in a coma!  From the poisoning!  And... because Loghain didn't intend to kill Eamon, that makes the poisoning ok??

 If I was King--I'd want him at my right hand because he sees right through all the scheming bullcrap:ph34r:

My HNF princess-consort is desperate to keep him close.  For this reason, but also because she considers him a friend and there are so few she trusts.  Despite the fact that I like Eamon, she asked for chancellorship to distance him from influencing Alistair too much.  That was mostly because of what you read in RtO, however, and her anticipation that she's going to have heir trouble as well!

Modifié par Addai67, 15 mars 2010 - 07:03 .

[Swifty]

Sannox wrote...

ETA: I'm talking about Isolde.  I don't type fast enough!

Was it just so that Connor could inherit, though? She lays down her life for him, when it comes to it, without much of a thought. Maybe she couldn't bear the thought of him going to the Circle. I don't think many mothers could. In a way, I can understand her position better than the mothers who are happy to pack their unfortunate mage children away (like Jowan's mother). Or have I missed something in the game (I often do?)?

Well both points, inheritance and that she cares for Connor, come up.

Again, some of it would depend on whether women inherit from Nobles in Fereldon or not when they aren't nobility themselves--anybody know the answer to that?

Does it say anywhere that parents can't visit their mage children like a boarding school or something? At Connor's age he'd know his parents.  Did I miss something there?

As for Isolde laying down her life--just how long she survives after the massacre of the villagers before one of them shoves something pointy into her spleen over their dead relatives, is another question. Same with Eamon and his part in it.

Just thinkin' as a king/queen Zevran wouldn't only be a good advisor--a Royal Assassin might be kinda handy too with that bunch of scheming nobility:devil:

[Charsen]

Nah, CZ, it's a different scene. Don't watch it if you intend to play Mass Effect though.



I posted a second link to a video using cats instead, since the powers that be have pulled the relevant SNL clips from youtube. Ah well. Cats will have to do.

[MorGothic]

Addai67 wrote...

Well, not to sidetrack too much, but I've read the novels and they only convince me more that Loghain deserves a traitor's death.

I'd be interested to know why (if you feel it sidetrack the thread to much I happy to discuss it via PM).

Loghian is patriot and he has every reason to hate the Orlesian's, him being forced to watch as his Mother was raped them murdered, the treatment to his dog, his Father's death (and those of his followers) and after the Orlesian's were forced out they sent assassin's to kill Maric and what happened at the end of The Calling. Beyond any of that Loghian even gave up love for Ferelden.

Now jump forward to present day Maric is dead and Cailan is King and Cailan feels he lives in his father's shadow he wants glory, to be a legend like his father in short he wants to be Cailan the Saviour its revealed in RtO that Cailan knew that Ostagar could not be won but he fought anyway despite the fact his full forces wasn't gathered. Also Cailan doesn't appear to respect Loghian "awaits to bore me with his strategies" also the way he says "then maybe we should await for the Orlesian forces" knowing what Loghian's reaction would be.

Now the Orlesian force's sent by the Empress was four legions of Cheviler's,  the Battle of River Dane was fought against two legions, but Cailan despite all evidence that the Orlesian's can't be trusted announces "Our trouble with the Orlesian are in the past...". What?! the Occupation ended only 30 years ago, many that fought are still alive. I belive the reason for Cailan trust is revealed in RtO.

I am not saying Loghain's actions were right, I just don't belive he should be branded a traitor.         

[Creature 1]

MorGothic wrote...
Loghian is patriot and he has every reason to hate the Orlesian's, him being forced to watch as his Mother was raped them murdered, the treatment to his dog, his Father's death (and those of his followers) and after the Orlesian's were forced out they sent assassin's to kill Maric and what happened at the end of The Calling. Beyond any of that Loghian even gave up love for Ferelden.

My, Gaider pulled out all the stops. 

[Sannox]

Swifty wrote...

Does it say anywhere that parents can't visit their mage children like a boarding school or something? At Connor's age he'd know his parents.  Did I miss something there?

As for Isolde laying down her life--just how long she survives after the massacre of the villagers before one of them shoves something pointy into her spleen over their dead relatives, is another question. Same with Eamon and his part in it.

I don't know if parents could visit at the Circle.  I got the impression that they didn't, but no, I don't think there's anything to say it's definitely a no-no.  In the end though, there's a fair chance that their child will be killed by the templars or made tranquil - both horrible options. 

I don't get the impression that Isolde offers her life because she is going to be kiled anyway..  I think it's heartfelt - she wants to save her son.  That's how it comes across to me.  

What she does turns out to be terrible, and she's also very irritating and not a nice person, but I think that she's driven mainly by a mother's instinct. 

[jenovan]

Swifty wrote...

Again, some of it would depend on whether women inherit from Nobles in Fereldon or not when they aren't nobility themselves--anybody know the answer to that?

Does it say anywhere that parents can't visit their mage children like a boarding school or something? At Connor's age he'd know his parents.  Did I miss something there?

Hmm, not sure about the laws of inheritance, but some of the banns ARE women -- like that chick whose brother is a Templar.  I took it that they were ruling in their own right, but I don't know what that stuff is spelled out well in-game.  I need to remember to look in my guide (got the special edition) -- it's got a bunch of D&D-style setting errata in the back.

As for magekids, I know it's taken as a given that they are pretty much removed from their families entirely -- I don't think you hear ANYWHERE of one of them staying in touch with their parents.  Which... may be a good thing in a way, at least for the parents, considering that their child could be killed for not passing their Harrowing fast enough, or could become an abomination, or could be made Tranquil...

edit: ninja'ed, at least about mages.

Modifié par jenovan, 15 mars 2010 - 07:02 .

[Swifty]

Addai67 wrote...

Swifty wrote...
If Eamon was so traumatized he wouldn't be taking on an Orlesian trophy wife. Sorry, can't buy that one.

If you can't see that it's a love match, I don't know what to tell you.  Alistair tells you straight up that it is and certainly the in-game interaction confirms that.

I "get" that he wants to keep the throne intact and doing so, if he had any stones at all, he could have either kept the rumour going that Alistair was his or just sluffed Alistair off as some wench's kid he took a shine to.

So because he was honest, he's evil?  LOL

Eamon didn't poison anyone and Eamon is not dead. If Loghain wanted him dead--he'd have used a deadly poison. Let's not assume Loghain kicked out the Orlesians by being an idiot. No, Eamon did *nothing* about his wife who was responsible for the very people he was responsible as an Arl, to protect. That's all I need to know about him. So they sob and weep. So what? How many more idiot moves will he let that woman pull that results in the death of others? For that he is responsible. Period. No getting away from it. He's either a gutless wonder, gaga over a woman to the detriment of his responsibilities or he's scheming. Take your choice.

You're not being logical here.  The undead are a result of the poisoning, not prior to.  We have no indication that Isolde did anything more egregious than try to have her child taken away from her.  Eamon couldn't do anything about the undead because he was in a coma!  From the poisoning!  And... because Loghain didn't intend to kill Eamon, that makes the poisoning ok??

 If I was King--I'd want him at my right hand because he sees right through all the scheming bullcrap:ph34r:

My HNF princess-consort is desperate to keep him close.  For this reason, but also because she considers him a friend and there are so few she trusts.  Despite the fact that I like Eamon, she asked for chancellorship to distance him from influencing Alistair too much.  That was mostly because of what you read in RtO, however, and her anticipation that she's going to have heir trouble as well!

"Love match" is not "duty" or "honour" and Eamon lacks both, as well as any common sense. Poor Alistair winds up married to someone he may or may not love out of "duty" so I can't feel too sorry for Eamon in that.

The poisoning? For some reason, Loghain does not want Eamon dead even though Eamon is in opposition to his position. That says something right there about Loghain's agenda.

Eamon wasn't "honest" about Alistair. He was scheming. He only wants Alistair around when Alistair represents something HE wants. Nothing about what's good for Alistair. Only what's good for Eamon. Evil no. Where did I say "evil"--you seem to like that word, it's a position I rarely take about a character. Self-absorbed, callous and self-interested? Certainly.

The undead could not have happened if Isolde did not hide what Connor was--period. He was an abomination-in-waiting, poisoning or no. The first time Connor was thwarted, or his mom or dad got sick he was a walking lunch for a desire demon. If not over his father's illness--then something else.

It's not about what Eamon did or did not do when he was poisoned. It's the fact he did *nothing* about his wife to hold her responsible for her actions afterwards when he was in perfect health. She lied to Bann Teagan. She lied to the PC to protect her interests. How often can I repeat that? How "just" do you think the villagers are going to see this after they have been slaughtered wholesale and those two are still collecting taxes off their butts? Would you not want to see her come to justice, if you were one of the villagers? All because Isolde did not call the Templars, did not ask for help upfront and just waited for your wandering PC to come by and save the day. We're asked to judge Jowan's guilt [even if we had him resolve the problem himself] and if we ask to free him because he's redeemed Eamon STILL ships him off to the mages [unless someone else did manage to free him, do tell!] yet his wife gets off scott free for her part in the debacle. The man thinks with his squishy bits and that is dangerous.

Good political move that you keep Eamon away. Due to his feelings of obligation--Eamon should be kept 100 miles away from Alistair at all times, I absolutely agree. Frankly I'm all in for banishing him back to his lands if that's legal while keeping an eye on him:bandit:

[jenovan]

Swifty wrote...

[Eamon didn't poison anyone and Eamon is not dead. If Loghain wanted him dead--he'd have used a deadly poison.

Oh, forgot to address this -- can we really state that for sure?  By the time the PC shows up, it's thought that the demon has done something to keep Eamon alive (that's the whole reason Connor made a deal with it in the first place).  Even though killing the demon doesn't kill Eamon, it could be that whatever the demon had done was permanent.  I'm not sure there's enough info to rule on this one?  (If there is, someone do tell XD)

[Swifty]

jenovan wrote...

Swifty wrote...

Again, some of it would depend on whether women inherit from Nobles in Fereldon or not when they aren't nobility themselves--anybody know the answer to that?

Does it say anywhere that parents can't visit their mage children like a boarding school or something? At Connor's age he'd know his parents.  Did I miss something there?

Hmm, not sure about the laws of inheritance, but some of the banns ARE women -- like that chick whose brother is a Templar.  I took it that they were ruling in their own right, but I don't know what that stuff is spelled out well in-game.  I need to remember to look in my guide (got the special edition) -- it's got a bunch of D&D-style setting errata in the back.

As for magekids, I know it's taken as a given that they are pretty much removed from their families entirely -- I don't think you hear ANYWHERE of one of them staying in touch with their parents.  Which... may be a good thing in a way, at least for the parents, considering that their child could be killed for not passing their Harrowing fast enough, or could become an abomination, or could be made Tranquil...

edit: ninja'ed, at least about mages.

Good point about the mages. Not a happy ending there in some cases for sure. I remember when Jowan told me he was going to be tranquilled--I was truly horrified. It was like they were gonna turn him into a mental eunuch. Blech.

Frankly if the mages aren't allowed to see their parents that would be sheer idiocy too because kids would be running for home all the time. I guess the next question would be how much Isolde knows about the mages and what they do to "failures". It is mentioned however that no mage can inherit the title and if she's a trophy wife [which is how I see her] she's in deep doo-doo if she can't pony up another heir. Wonder what the divorce laws for the nobility are?

Yeah, I just wonder if a woman Bann can happen if she's not nobility which an Orlesian wouldn't be, by birth.

[Creature 1]

Swifty wrote...
The undead could not have happened if Isolde did not hide what Connor was--period. He was an abomination-in-waiting, poisoning or no. The first time Connor was thwarted, or his mom or dad got sick he was a walking lunch for a desire demon. If not over his father's illness--then something else.

I don't think this is true.  I don't think the Circle does a thing to prevent possessions.  If Connor was destined to become possessed, so is any other mage kid, yet most manage to reach adulthood without being possessed.  The first time most run into a demon is when they're forcibly possessed in the Harrowing.  

[Creature 1]

Swifty wrote...
Frankly if the mages aren't allowed to see their parents that would be sheer idiocy too because kids would be running for home all the time.

There's a giant door watched by Templars that keeping them from running off.  Plus they get shipped to the Tower from all over Ferelden, and some of these kids are going to be so young they might not even know their parents' names ("What's your mom's name?"  "Ma!"), much less what town they live in.  They certainly wouldn't be able to break out of the Tower and trek over hundreds of miles of unfamiliar terrain to reach home! 

[Addai]

MorGothic wrote...

I am not saying Loghain's actions were right, I just don't belive he should be branded a traitor.         

Ok one more reply on this subject and then I'm ending hijack.  Because Zevsquee is a lot more fun than Loghain hate! [edit:  I mean I'm ending my hijack.  Not that I'm telling anyone else what to do, etc.]

The novels underscore Loghain's treachery to me because it makes it that much more inconceivable that he could betray Maric and Rowan's son.  The background of Loghain's experiences make him a more tragic figure in my mind, but not less culpable.  You mentioned Loghain's father.  He would have every reason to be as paranoid and vengeful as his son, but considering his reaction to Maric, what do you think he would say about Loghain's actions?
Ok, can someone put up a screen of Zevran's thighs please?  Priorities, priorities. 

Modifié par Addai67, 15 mars 2010 - 07:21 .

[Swifty]

jenovan wrote...

Swifty wrote...

[Eamon didn't poison anyone and Eamon is not dead. If Loghain wanted him dead--he'd have used a deadly poison.

Oh, forgot to address this -- can we really state that for sure?  By the time the PC shows up, it's thought that the demon has done something to keep Eamon alive (that's the whole reason Connor made a deal with it in the first place).  Even though killing the demon doesn't kill Eamon, it could be that whatever the demon had done was permanent.  I'm not sure there's enough info to rule on this one?  (If there is, someone do tell XD)

It was my sense that the desire demon promoted that idea with Connor to possess him--remember, desire demons *lie* and there's no proof the demon is keeping Eamon alive. The only way I can see that happening is if the demon itself was possessing Eamon which is clearly not the case. Then given his relationship with Isolde--well [okay that was a joke]

[Charsen]

Dear Addai,



Love, 
Zevran's thighs

P.S. kneepads 

Modifié par Charsen, 15 mars 2010 - 07:16 .

[Sabriana]

jenovan wrote...

Swifty wrote...

[Eamon didn't poison anyone and Eamon is not dead. If Loghain wanted him dead--he'd have used a deadly poison.

Oh, forgot to address this -- can we really state that for sure?  By the time the PC shows up, it's thought that the demon has done something to keep Eamon alive (that's the whole reason Connor made a deal with it in the first place).  Even though killing the demon doesn't kill Eamon, it could be that whatever the demon had done was permanent.  I'm not sure there's enough info to rule on this one?  (If there is, someone do tell XD)

Jenovan, David Gaider said that in the infamous "The complete defense of Loghain" thread. He said this:

D. Gaider's take on Eamon's poisoning:


Yes, but this wasn't done in preparation for Ostagar. This was done in anticipation that Loghain and Cailan would have a showdown, and Arl Eamon would always solidly be in Cailan's camp. Like I said, Loghain is the sort of man that will ensure his enemies are defeated before they're engaged.

I know this isn't spelled out, but Eamon was never supposed to actually die from the poison. It would keep him sick for a long time -- certainly long enough for Isolde to try all their options and send out knights looking for remedies -- and then, once the confrontation with Cailan was done, Eamon could be given the cure. The elf was sent to Redcliffe to keep an eye on things and watch for news of Eamon getting worse, and if that happened then Loghain could send the cure immediately. Or, at least, that was the intention. If Eamon died in the name of keeping Ferelden safe from Orlais, Loghain wouldn't shed too many tears over it.