35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Rhinna]

OK...too many pages have gone by with Zevran - sorry ladies and gents, I prefer my Zev with dark hair - soo much sexier than the blonde IMO

Here he is trying to cut me a deal for his life (He realizes what he'll be missing LOL) PRE LOTHERING! (Charsen, I  you!)

[ejoslin]

Zevran LEAVING the fight with Taliesen ONLY happens if he's romanced. If he's at "warm" (26+) he will stay and fight no matter what. It's only if he's romanced yet BELOW 71+ Adore that he may leave. And really, even if he's below 26+, he may stay as well, though he leaves immediately after the fight. Basically, if the warden tells Taliesen, "Zevran doesn't need the Crows anymore," Zevran will stay and fight no matter what.

@Sannox I find the other dialogs absolutely fabulous. The example you give is one of my favorites -- you learn that he still DOES feel, and that he considers it a fault. 

Edit: a couple others that I REALLY like, that give great insight into him:

When he's telling the Warden about Antiva, when the option comes up, tell him, "You smell a cesspool and you think of home?"
When he's talking about his final mission, at the end ask him, "Why are you telling me this?"

Neither are negative, both very touching.

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 mars 2010 - 01:36 .

[Creature 1]

I found this thread on page 2. For shame.

[Sannox]

@ejoslin Thanks for explaining the conditions. It's a difficult scene to experiment with because it's so far into the game and I've always romanced him from the beginning. I'd probably do it by accident even if I tried to play through from the ambush. On the saves I have, it doesn't seem to matter what I say, even if I inadvertently threaten to kill him.



I thought the 'cesspool' response was great, and I did pick the 'why are you telling me this?' option the first time, meaning that my warden was sympathetic and wanting to know (but it could also have come across as uncaring - I find it difficult sometimes to guess what is meant), and his answer made me very happy.

[ejoslin]

The way I found out that he left was I had a character who was just taking the whole thing very slowly; I actually was looking for what triggered the alternative dialog to the royal scandal speech (I had seen it once before). He left because he was at 69 care. Addai67 had him at friendzone at that point, and in the 50s and he would stay no matter what, so of course I had to start playing around.



It makes all the sense in the world to me that he leaves at "interested" or "care" unless you make that one dialog choice. He probably feels the same for the warden as he does for Taliesen and is torn. It's also the only way you can find out about his relationship with Taliesen which makes sense to me as well. If you're just friends, it's none of your business. If he's at Adore, which switches to Love there, then he's beyond Taliesen and it's irrelevant.

[Sannox]

@EccentricSage I would love to recruit Taliesin - wouldn't that be great? I don't know what his involvement was in the Rinna thing - is it possible that he set it up and later regretted it when Zevran left? I don't think so. If Taliesin really did have information incriminating her, then I suppose killing her was part of the job, the way they were taught. (Zevran spitting in her face was something extra though). But I can see that his feelings for Zevran might have influenced how he handled it.

I would have liked to know more, and my wardens never even get to know how important Taliesin is. And it was only recently that I thought about how much Taliesin was willing to risk to get Zevran back, or even just to avenge his death.

[EccentricSage]

I wish he'd still bring it up at adore or as friends, though, because it shouldn't be any more irelevant than Rinna, IMO, since Taliesen must have truly had strong feelings for Zev if he was willing to die for him. It's terribly sad.



Granted I figure it was made so conditional so that you'd experience different things with zev in different playthroughs, which is cool. But if I fic, I might... tweak this... a bit, for the sake of a story.

[Sannox]

I think it's consistent in that he might avoid burdening you with the information at 'love'. (And you have other things to talk about, back at camp). But it would not have been irrelevant to my wardens. They know that killing Rinna was a big deal, and now they've played a part in killing another lover. Taliesin didn't betray Zevran either (quite the opposite, it turns out).

Modifié par Sannox, 21 mars 2010 - 03:46 .

[Raiynsong]

wow as usually great screenies and drawings everyone.



I just finished Redcliffe and Urn on my Female Dwarf commoner. She is basically just going to be buddies with Alistair and ignore Leliana and end up with Zevran (of course). She killed Isolde and went back to camp expecting Alistair to scream at her. When he started talking she replied "yes, it went rather well, didn't it" and he didn't yell at all--he ended up agreeing with her. So I guess he only yells when you admit that you weren't sure you did the right thing. Which makes sense since I think Alistair really just wants someone to lead and make all the tough decisions so he does'nt have to.

[ejoslin]

I've also been thinking about the jealousy thing. While Zevran says he doesn't make any claims upon the warden, he does force a choice, and his reasoning isn't very honest. Also, the way he sounds when he's denying being jealous -- to me it sounds more like that's just something that never occurred to him. His laugh there, his tone of voice -- he doesn't sound honest, nor does he sound like he normally does when he's amused.

Also, in that conversation, he may say something like, "If what there is between us cannot be honest, let it not be at all." That is asking for a commitment for sure, and something out in the open. So on the one hand he's saying he's placing no claims on her, but on the other he most definitely is. But things like loving, really loving someone, being jealous, not wanting to share affection -- these are all very new and confusing to him -- so new, he's identifying what they are for the first time.

That doesn't mean he minds the warden engaging in casual sex. He obviously does not. But he is jealous if the warden cares about someone else romantically. He also doesn't think he deserves the warden, he probably thinks that Alistair or Leliana have much more to offer her than he does. He wants, more than anything, for the warden to be happy; he still doesn't know how he's feeling, and he's still fighting falling in love.

When he says he's no cheat -- he's lying. He'll gladly sleep with a married woman (even if it is to kill her husband... eventually). What he won't do is share the warden. He will admit that there really IS something between them if he's pushed to at that point.

It's an interesting thing. It can be roleplayed in so many ways. The one thing that cannot be ignored is how much he cares about the warden, even before his status switches to love.

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 mars 2010 - 04:27 .

[Sannox]

@highcastle I agree about Zevran bringing out sympathy - very much so. He makes my characters/me feel very protective.

[ejoslin]

Sannox wrote...

I think it's consistent in that he might avoid burdening you with the information at 'love'. (And you have other things to talk about, back at camp). But it would not have been irrelevant to my wardens. They know that killing Rinna was a big deal, and now they've played a part in killing another lover. Taliesin didn't betray Zevran either (quite the opposite, it turns out).

Ok, I will have to disagree here.  I don't know the details of my husband's past lovers, and since he was 26 when we met, he had had a few -- they're in the past, and really, none of my business (though I suppose if I asked him for details, he'd give them to me, but I wouldn't want them anyway -- and after 20 years, I doubt he remembers anyway).  You know some about Taliesen, and most people have figured they were lovers as well, but if the relationship is over, why is it something that is relevant to your relationship?  It's only really relevant if he still has feelings for Taliesen.  It was his actions about Rinna, and how the whole incident changed him and shaped him, that made her worth telling about.  If the only point of that story was that he had loved someone else, I would also say that that was irrelevant. It was the fact that he killed her and learned that he was absolutely nothing to the crows and that he was trying to die which is what made that a relevant story.  

Edit: Even though I was 19 when I met my husband, I was no virgin either, and he never asked me about former boyfriends.  We both have met former lovers of the other, but the specifics?  Gah, I wouldn't even want them.  Maybe we're both unusual in that neither of us are threatened by the other's past lives.  If he still had cared for a woman, especially as much as he cared for me, then THAT could be pretty important information, but only if she became a part of our lives in some way.

Of course, I have known people who want to know every last detail about their lover. Since I'm not one of them, I can easily say that I think if Zevran has moved beyond Taliesen, it's irrelevant.  Then again, I'm a very strange person!

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 mars 2010 - 04:21 .

[Charsen]

Recruiting Taliesen would be... awkward. But dynamic. Kind of like Loghain.
I wish there was some sort of cutscene after the fight, while he's dying, though. Some final words between two former lovers.

In fact, since we may be going to Antiva in a later game, I kind of wish they left out Taliesen entirely. He could have been a prominent figure there.

(edit: I played with dark haired Zevran for the first half of the game, though his face was still the same, just different hair and a goatee. He looks good both ways! glad you like the mod Rhinna   )

Modifié par Charsen, 21 mars 2010 - 04:15 .

[Addai]

Just logging in to slobber over Charsen.  That is all!




<3<3<3<3<3<3

Modifié par Addai67, 21 mars 2010 - 04:32 .

[Charsen]

yay slobber!

[Sannox]

ejoslin wrote...
That doesn't mean he minds the warden engaging in casual sex. He obviously does not. But he is jealous if the warden cares about someone else romantically. He also doesn't think he deserves the warden, he probably thinks that Alistair or Leliana have much more to offer him than he does. He wants, more than anything, for the warden to be happy; he still doesn't know how he's feeling, and he's still fighting falling in love.

I'm beginning to realise that none of the characters feel plain old sexual jealousy of the sort we're used to.  None of them seem to mind sharing until they AND the other person in the triangle hit a certain level of approval.   

So I think the loss of approval with the public kissing is a mistake, if it's supposed to be about jealousy.   Or maybe it's not, but it doesn't seem consistent to me.   Why would a companion disapprove of a kiss, if it hasn't bothered them to hear (and see, apparenlty!  Judging from the cutscenes) that couple having sex.  

(In Zevran's case, he also saw my male warden kissing Bella and Kaitlyn in public, and taking Gheyna to the tent in front of him with no loss of approval or signs of jealousy)

When he says he's no cheat -- he's lying. He'll gladly sleep with a married woman (even if it is to kill her husband... eventually). What he won't do is share the warden. He will admit that there really IS something between them if he's pushed to at that point.

I wondered about that.  The husband was a mark, though, not a work colleague.  It does make sense to me that he would feel it was dishonest and cheating to have to secretly sleep with you.  (And that's the choice, because if he doesn't force a choice, the other companion will, I think - do correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm guessing a lot.    The others DO feel jealous, so the only way to continue with Zevran would be in secret.   I feel that that's what he's saying - not that he wouldn't share, but that if the other person won't share/is jealous, he won't have a secret affair.   It has to be honest. 

I think it's less clear because what triggers it is the other person's approval rising, I think.  So it doesn't matter what the warden feels - it's only what the other person feels that matters, because that person then won't share and cheating becomes the only option.   He could also be jealous, but I find it difficult to fit that with his complete lack of jealousy at other times.   (And it hasn't quite fitted with my role-playing either - it has either been too early in the 'relationship', or my character hasn't had feelings for the other person). 

[jenovan]

'Allo all!  (Can't say g'morning anymore, at least not here. XD)

Oooh, Taliesen talk. *rubs hands together*  I love a lot of what's been said already  

Hmm, ejoslin, you have a point about past romantic history being irrelevant to some degree, but, the fact that Taliesen just tried to kill you -- that he must have wanted/cared about Zevran enough to risk doing so -- might make some PCs want to know more.  I think the way those conversations are broken out in game based on relationship status is an interesting device, and logical, but if given the option to talk about it, some of my characters would take it, even if they're at Adore/Love.  (Thank goodness for fanfic. ;D)  That kinda goes back to what Sannox was saying about, every single conversation choice is still reflective of the same character, even if you never hear them.  Thank goodness for the mantra of F5 F9, eh? ;D

I don't know how recruiting Taliesen would work out, but I wish you had the option to (Persuade) tell him to go away.  Maybe it might fail, maybe he might say something very interesting or revealing in that case...  but yeah, my CEM was all about avoiding fights, and knowing, at the least, that Taliesen was Zevran's friend, he'd try to avoid that fight if possible.

Which leads me to the thought that's been swirling in my head for a couple of days... What do you think would happen if the Crows won that fight?  Would Zevran continue to fight to the death?  Would Taliesen & co. let or not let him do that?  Would Zevran give up, or break, a la the US ending?  Of course some of that may depend on the status of Zevran's relationship with the PC at that point, too, but yeah.   Thoughts? 

[jenovan]

Raiynsong wrote...

wow as usually great screenies and drawings everyone.

I just finished Redcliffe and Urn on my Female Dwarf commoner. She is basically just going to be buddies with Alistair and ignore Leliana and end up with Zevran (of course). She killed Isolde and went back to camp expecting Alistair to scream at her. When he started talking she replied "yes, it went rather well, didn't it" and he didn't yell at all--he ended up agreeing with her. So I guess he only yells when you admit that you weren't sure you did the right thing. Which makes sense since I think Alistair really just wants someone to lead and make all the tough decisions so he does'nt have to.

Wow, lol... I didn't try that option, I don't think, but my PC ended up saying something like they thought it was for the best, I think.  Alistair pinned his pointy little ears back with his tantrum   But, one amulet later and the doofus is back in a good mood  again.  Sheesh.

(I love Alistair as a buddy, but sometimes I wanted to smack him upside the head. )

[Addai]

Personally I think it's a glitch... if you respond to Alistair "I think it went rather well, don't you?" he acts as if nothing is wrong and you get +7. It could mean to show how suggestible he is, but just seems like a glitch to me.

[ejoslin]

No, you're right, as long as you have two people at 71+ adore, they will force you to choose. That's the trigger.

His talk with the warden when he forces her to choose is very subjective. Sabriana (I blame her) actually changed my mind on this point, though. Just because he voice is SO different, as is his laugh than other times when he's amused. Try telling him you love Alistair, and you see a very broken faced Zevran and he says something like, "Ah, it is as I feared, then."

I think the way Zevran's approval jumps so quickly, that can be part of the reason it seems it happens too soon. You can actually get him to 71+ adore before leaving the initial area quite easily, especially if you have the dalish gloves. If I take him to the tent in a game, forget it, he will never refuse to talk about his final mission if you're decent to him as well. He falls fast, and he falls hard -- far faster than Alistair or Leliana, and he doesn't need gifts to get him there.

So then you are left with the question, WHY would he fall so fast and hard, especially when he's struggling to keep things casual. Or maybe it's because he's falling so hard and fast that he is trying to convince himself and the warden that it is casual.

I can't get beyond the fact that he looks to the future with the warden before he will go to the tent with her. If it were just casual, why would he care what her plans for the future are when it concerns him? He will accept being told it's only physical, but he also accepts the warden saying she wants him in the future, beyond the blight, and telling him this gives very high approval as well. Of course, since at that point he is, in his eyes, her indenture, it's reasonable for him to want to know what the plans are for him. But why does he ask her even then, if she will want him to stay (if the romance is started that is)? Why does he point out that they could grow fond of each other? He obviously is thinking of more than just himself and his survival at that point if the romance is started, even though it's not sexual at that point.

So I have to believe that it never really was casual. I think he found himself falling in love from the start and spent so much time fighting it, until he couldn't fight it any more.

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 mars 2010 - 05:04 .

[ejoslin]

I would not want the option to recruit Taliesen. Taliesen is Zevran's old life -- the warden is Zevran's new life.

Why Taliesen just tried to kill you you already know. The crows sent him to kill Zevran. You also know that Taliesen is responsible to kill the warden. Had Taliesen let them go via a [persuade] option, then maybe you could ask questions.

Edit: You get a good picture of the dynamic without asking questions.  The details -- I just don't see as relevant unless they stop Zevran from protecting the warden.  He protects her from the start -- it's only in this one incident that he doesn't.  Why? Because he feels the same for both Taliesen and the warden. It becomes very relevant. I just don't see, after he has moved beyond Taliesen, why the details of a past relationship is something that should matter.

Second edit: Addai67, I also think it's a glitch.  It makes no sense at all that he would approve of using blood magic or killing Isolde, no matter what. 

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 mars 2010 - 05:11 .

[Sannox]

ejoslin wrote...
Ok, I will have to disagree here.  I don't know the details of my husband's past lovers, and since he was 26 when we met, he had had a few -- they're in the past, and really, none of my business (though I suppose if I asked him for details, he'd give them to me, but I wouldn't want them anyway -- and after 20 years, I doubt he remembers anyway).  You know some about Taliesen, and most people have figured they were lovers as well, but if the relationship is over, why is it something that is relevant to your relationship?  It's only really relevant if he still has feelings for Taliesen.  It was his actions about Rinna, and how the whole incident changed him and shaped him, that made her worth telling about.  If the only point of that story was that he had loved someone else, I would also say that that was irrelevant. It was the fact that he killed her and learned that he was absolutely nothing to the crows and that he was trying to die which is what made that a relevant story.  

Edit: Even though I was 19 when I met my husband, I was no virgin either, and he never asked me about former boyfriends.  We both have met former lovers of the other, but the specifics?  Gah, I wouldn't even want them.  Maybe we're both unusual in that neither of us are threatened by the other's past lives.  If he still had cared for a woman, especially as much as he cared for me, then THAT could be pretty important information, but only if she became a part of our lives in some way.

Of course, I have known people who want to know every last detail about their lover. Since I'm not one of them, I can easily say that I think if Zevran has moved beyond Taliesen, it's irrelevant.  Then again, I'm a very strange person!

I'm very much with you on the real life stuff.   I've just deleted some stuff which I've decided was TMI, but yes, past history isn't normally an issue or a threat, as far as I'm concerned (and both me and my boyfriend have plenty ).

But Taliesin, like Rinna, isn't just past sexual/love history.  You've just helped Zevran kill him.  Zevran pitted himself against you so he could die.  Taliesin does the same to get Zevran back.   The warden might not know (might not have heard the conversation with Alistair) that only Zevran would risk fighting a grey warden, but Zevran knows it - so must know what strong feelings Taliesin must have to 'volunteer'.    Zevran regretted Rinna, who hadn't betrayed him.  He must feel something when he kills Taliesin, especially as he betrayed Taliesin, not the other way around.   It's because of the warden, that he kills Taliesin too - you are partially responsible, unwittingly.

So it's a lot more complicated than Taliesin being an ex, and it's closely related to the Rinna story which made Zevran want to die and which brought you together.  I think that because of his love for the warden, he can deal with it, but my wardens would definitely want to know, even if he didn't feel he needed comfort.   He does tend to deal with everything on his own, but he shouldn't have to.

Modifié par Sannox, 21 mars 2010 - 05:27 .

[Cuddlezarro]

Charsen wrote...

yay slobber!

your avatar and your happy comment dont go together since he looks like hes so serious... *tries to remedy that by being a (delightfully) evil distraction again*

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 21 mars 2010 - 05:29 .

[ejoslin]

As a friend, you also can't ask him about it. He'll stay no matter what. That's why I view it the way I do. And given the disapproval you get from him if you ask him about it if he leaves (either -6 or -11, depending on whether you focus on him leaving or his past relationship with Taliesen, the smaller being asking "a good friend, was he"), it's not exactly somewhere Zevran wants to go. But he does feel he owes you an explanation, which is why you're given the opportunity and he tells you.

Edit: I also don't view Zevran as betraying Taliesen.  He's trying to escape.  He's a slave, and does not want to be.  Is it possible for him to betray his master?  Did Taliesen have feelings of caring for Zevran.  Sure.  Did they love each other? I doubt that seriously.  I would say, well, the feelings in approval ratings is in "care."  Taliesen wanted to bring Zevran back to a horrible life that Zevran is doing his best to break away from.  Taliesen is hunting him down.

If you kill Zevran, yes, Taliesen will say he's avenging him because Zevran was his friend.  If Zevran has left your party earlier (not the fight, but is gone), Taliesen lets you know he will continue his hunt.  

Second edit: Zevran choosing to tell the warden about Rinna is about him trusting her enough that he is willing to share the absolute ugliest thing he's ever done.  He swore he'd never tell anyone, yet he tells the warden, and it frees him to a certain extent.  If he were as tormented by killing Taliesen as he was about killing Rinna AND the entire after effects, then yes, that may be a relevant story to tell you.  And apparently, he only is at that point if he still has feelings for Taliesen.

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 mars 2010 - 05:47 .

[Charsen]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

Charsen wrote...

yay slobber!

your avatar and your happy comment dont go together since he looks like hes so serious... *tries to remedy that by being a (delightfully) evil distraction again*

rofl.. yeah, definitely a distraction  
especially since i was working on the Alistair convo at the time. I'm going to look into making a slap alistair mod one day, i swear.

But, I am now finished fleshing out the core dialogue components of the Shianni conversation with Alistair, Morrigan and Leliana, and halfway done with Zev. I have added a bunch of conditionals for different party members, plot elements, etc too. Zevran will be next, and then I have to tie in a few more random comments from party members and I'm looking at a release later this week (longer than expected due to non-DA things)

*edit* changed the avatar... it goes with mood 

Modifié par Charsen, 21 mars 2010 - 05:57 .