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[Creature 1]

In my mind Taliesin and Zevran met right after Zevran was purchased, and were later separated and then reunited. I think he could still feel something for Zevran because he was a tie to the person that Taliesin had once been. Probably a good deal of his feelings for Zevran were mixed up with nostalgia for the friend Zevran had been, and the child that Taliesin had been. Probably Zevran is the only person that Taliesin could love.



Of course that's my story. YMMV.

[EccentricSage]

ejoslin wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmm, back to Taliesen (I know it's spelled both ways in the game, irritating too). Aside from the accent being completely wrong (IMO), he does not sound loving or caring or anything. Just sardonic and cold. THAT sounds right to me, though. I don't think they were in love, though I think Zevran cared for him. I don't think the Crows really care for anyone that deeply for the most part.

But even people who are forced to do horrible things to survive are still people.  They just can't show it.  From how Zevran talked of his past when he tells about Rinna, he was the same exact way.  Yet we know even then he had fealings that compelled him to want to give his victims a quick and dignified death, a part of him that wanted to pleasure his victims and see them end 'on a high note' even though the Crows frowned uppon it, a part of him that had feelings for fellow crows no matter how hard he fought it.  Why would we think Taliesen is any different?

Because anyone but the absolute strongest of people would not survive the training if they felt things the way Zevran did.  The training should weed out people who still care, and make those who can survive completely cold.  That's what makes Zevran stand out -- he was strong enough to get through all of that with his humanity intact. Perhaps Taliesen was as strong a person as Zevran, but my guess is not.  Because not many people are that strong.

But maybe he was and that's why they were special to eachother?  If he wasn't then why would Zevran care?  He said he was a GOOD friend, who's ONLY fault was his priorities.  So it sounds to me like they had some simularities and that meant something to them.

[Creature 1]

I think at that point Zevran might still be a little hazy regarding what constitutes a fault. 

[EccentricSage]

Creature 1 wrote...

In my mind Taliesin and Zevran met right after Zevran was purchased, and were later separated and then reunited. I think he could still feel something for Zevran because he was a tie to the person that Taliesin had once been. Probably a good deal of his feelings for Zevran were mixed up with nostalgia for the friend Zevran had been, and the child that Taliesin had been. Probably Zevran is the only person that Taliesin could love.

Of course that's my story. YMMV.

Might it be... a ficci? 

[EccentricSage]

Creature 1 wrote...

I think at that point Zevran might still be a little hazy regarding what constitutes a fault. 

As a Crow killing can't be a fault.  Crows are slaves who have to kill.  It's a completely different social situation than what we are used to.  So I suspect that line really meant something.

[jenovan]

LOL!  Why is Charsen working in the Pearl?!   Or did he and Xander just borrow a room? 

EccentricSage wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmm, back to Taliesen (I know it's spelled both ways in the game, irritating too). Aside from the accent being completely wrong (IMO), he does not sound loving or caring or anything. Just sardonic and cold. THAT sounds right to me, though. I don't think they were in love, though I think Zevran cared for him. I don't think the Crows really care for anyone that deeply for the most part.

But even people who are forced to do horrible things to survive are still people.  They just can't show it.  From how Zevran talked of his past when he tells about Rinna, he was the same exact way.  Yet we know even then he had fealings that compelled him to want to give his victims a quick and dignified death, a part of him that wanted to pleasure his victims and see them end 'on a high note' even though the Crows frowned uppon it, a part of him that had feelings for fellow crows no matter how hard he fought it.  Why would we think Taliesen is any different

Hmm, besides the points ejoslin made above, there's this:  When Zevran thanks you for freeing him from the Crows, if you say you did it as a friend, he says something to the effect that the idea of friendship is foreign to him.  (I'm sure someone can produce the exact line!)  And yet, he calls Taliesen a friend -- I think, that in the Crows, whatever relationships they had with each other were required to take a backseat to their duty as Crows.  Not to mention, those friendships/whatnot may have been fragile things, waiting until one had reason to turn on the other... as was done to Rinna, and as the master said would happen to Zevran eventually.  Theirs is not a world that encourages what we would consider friendships...

That's not to say that there wasn't something between Zevran and Taliesen, from both sides, but from Taliesen's side, at least, I don't think it could approach the openness of what we would consider "friendship" -- like Zevran finds with the Warden (regardless of romantic status).

*hopes that made sense*

[ejoslin]

EccentricSage wrote...

But maybe he was and that's why they were special to eachother?  If he wasn't then why would Zevran care?  He said he was a GOOD friend, who's ONLY fault was his priorities.  So it sounds to me like they had some simularities and that meant something to them.

I think the way Zevran viewed friendship changed just as the way he viewed love changed.  Later he will say "In the Crows, we do not have "friends," and yet here you are and I cannot help but consider you such."  The warden, friend or lover, is the first real friend that Zevran had.  Just as as a lover, the warden was his first real love.  His relationships before her were shallow, surface type relationships.  

Edit: Of course, Jenovan said this, and much more eloquently than I, but I like to type anyway!

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 mars 2010 - 02:28 .

[Addai]

So what IS the real spelling, Taliesen or Taliesin? Gah! I've only been talking about this topic for three months and still don't know.

[jenovan]

Addai67 wrote...

So what IS the real spelling, Taliesen or Taliesin? Gah! I've only been talking about this topic for three months and still don't know.

As it usually is IRL, it's Taliesin, but... yeah. XD  It's spelled both ways in-game. 

Modifié par jenovan, 22 mars 2010 - 02:16 .

[ejoslin]

jenovan wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

So what IS the real spelling, Taliesen or Taliesin? Gah! I've only been talking about this topic for three months and still don't know.

As it usually is IRL, it's Taliesin, but... yeah. XD  It's spelled both ways in-game. 

I spell it Taliesen because not only is it pronounced incorrectly, but "Taliesen" is what appears over his head!

Edit: It's only "Taliesin" when talking to Ignacio I think.

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 mars 2010 - 02:23 .

[Creature 1]

EccentricSage wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

In my mind Taliesin and Zevran met right after Zevran was purchased, and were later separated and then reunited. I think he could still feel something for Zevran because he was a tie to the person that Taliesin had once been. Probably a good deal of his feelings for Zevran were mixed up with nostalgia for the friend Zevran had been, and the child that Taliesin had been. Probably Zevran is the only person that Taliesin could love.

Of course that's my story. YMMV.

Might it be... a ficci? 

Yes, and it might be 5k words right now, but it also might never be seen by eyes besides my own! 

[EccentricSage]

jenovan wrote...

LOL!  Why is Charsen working in the Pearl?!   Or did he and Xander just borrow a room? 

EccentricSage wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmm, back to Taliesen (I know it's spelled both ways in the game, irritating too). Aside from the accent being completely wrong (IMO), he does not sound loving or caring or anything. Just sardonic and cold. THAT sounds right to me, though. I don't think they were in love, though I think Zevran cared for him. I don't think the Crows really care for anyone that deeply for the most part.

But even people who are forced to do horrible things to survive are still people.  They just can't show it.  From how Zevran talked of his past when he tells about Rinna, he was the same exact way.  Yet we know even then he had fealings that compelled him to want to give his victims a quick and dignified death, a part of him that wanted to pleasure his victims and see them end 'on a high note' even though the Crows frowned uppon it, a part of him that had feelings for fellow crows no matter how hard he fought it.  Why would we think Taliesen is any different

Hmm, besides the points ejoslin made above, there's this:  When Zevran thanks you for freeing him from the Crows, if you say you did it as a friend, he says something to the effect that the idea of friendship is foreign to him.  (I'm sure someone can produce the exact line!)  And yet, he calls Taliesen a friend -- I think, that in the Crows, whatever relationships they had with each other were required to take a backseat to their duty as Crows.  Not to mention, those friendships/whatnot may have been fragile things, waiting until one had reason to turn on the other... as was done to Rinna, and as the master said would happen to Zevran eventually.  Theirs is not a world that encourages what we would consider friendships...

That's not to say that there wasn't something between Zevran and Taliesen, from both sides, but from Taliesen's side, at least, I don't think it could approach the openness of what we would consider "friendship" -- like Zevran finds with the Warden (regardless of romantic status).

*hopes that made sense*

It makes sence.  With the warden friendship takes on new meanings and dimensions that Zevran hadn't believed were possible.  His friendship with Taliesen had to have involved more than business and sex... because it obviously held deaper meaning to them judging by their actions and how Zev looked after the fight.  So there had to have been some sort of unspoken compassion there.  But as Crows even then, that would be nothing but a small secret connection to take comfort in when they can, expecting fully well that they could be forced to kill eachother or watch eachother die someday.  I'd imagine as children they watched many peers whom they felt compassion for die horrificly in training.  I think in a strange way that shared horror might be what makes them need eachother despite the knowlege that deaths, betrayals, and pain are inevitable in their life.  Zevran does express that you have to be grateful for anything good you can find in life.  I think their friendship must have been a fearfull but desperate thing masked as business, but clearly meaning more under the surface.  It's a natural part of human nature that I doubt could be completely tortured out of them.

But then with the Warden, he's told that he's free as soon as he's free of his circumstances (hunted by Crows), and encouraged to be open about his fealings.  His compassion isn't a weekness and he is valued and comes to realize that this friend does not see a future of betrayal and suffering as inevitable.

It's all a matter of differing circumstances the way I see it.  Poor Taliesen died never knowing there was something better than the hell he was living in.  He would have thought trying to get Zev back and cover for him is the kind thing to do.  He wouldn't have understood he would be returning Zevran to hell because I doubt he believes any other existance is possible.  Zevran sure didn't belieave it possible untill he was so blatantly shown mercy and kindness by a would-be victim that he couldn't deny it.

[EccentricSage]

Creature 1 wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

In my mind Taliesin and Zevran met right after Zevran was purchased, and were later separated and then reunited. I think he could still feel something for Zevran because he was a tie to the person that Taliesin had once been. Probably a good deal of his feelings for Zevran were mixed up with nostalgia for the friend Zevran had been, and the child that Taliesin had been. Probably Zevran is the only person that Taliesin could love.

Of course that's my story. YMMV.

Might it be... a ficci? 

Yes, and it might be 5k words right now, but it also might never be seen by eyes besides my own! 

Pleeeeeaaaaaase?   

[Cuddlezarro]

heres my Orlesian grey warden ...what do you folks think of him?

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 22 mars 2010 - 02:40 .

[ejoslin]

OH! New tattoos! I like him.

[EccentricSage]

CZ, NICE!

[Cuddlezarro]

glad you like him it took me the better part of an hour to make him

[ejoslin]

With Taliesen, you're not really given enough information to know what he's like, so it's possible to fill that in however you like. His motivation could be many things; genuine caring is one possibility.

However, if you let Zevran go or he leaves you for whatever reason, alive, this is what you get from Taliesen.

Taliesen: I see Zevran is no longer with you. A pity. I would have enjoyed killing two birds with one stone.

Even this could be taken more than once way.

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 mars 2010 - 02:42 .

[Cuddlezarro]

to me that just sounds like he wants to kill the both of you at the same time... then again my characters (even Xander despite his frowny gruffness) tend to be rather protective of him

[EccentricSage]

ejoslin wrote...

With Taliesen, you're not really given enough information to know what he's like, so it's possible to fill that in however you like. His motivation could be many things; genuine caring is one possibility.

However, if you let Zevran go or he leaves you for whatever reason, alive, this is what you get from Taliesen.

Taliesen: I see Zevran is no longer with you. A pity. I would have enjoyed killing two birds with one stone.

Even this could be taken more than once way.

If this were the only encounter you knew, yes.  But knowing that he will try to avenge Zevran if you killed him, and that he tries to bring Zevran back and 'fix the mistake' if Zevran is with you, it's obvious killing Zevran is not something he wants to do.

[ejoslin]

EccentricSage wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

With Taliesen, you're not really given enough information to know what he's like, so it's possible to fill that in however you like. His motivation could be many things; genuine caring is one possibility.

However, if you let Zevran go or he leaves you for whatever reason, alive, this is what you get from Taliesen.

Taliesen: I see Zevran is no longer with you. A pity. I would have enjoyed killing two birds with one stone.

Even this could be taken more than once way.

If this were the only encounter you knew, yes.  But knowing that he will try to avenge Zevran if you killed him, and that he tries to bring Zevran back and 'fix the mistake' if Zevran is with you, it's obvious killing Zevran is not something he wants to do.

It really does depend on so many things.  Different circumstances cause people to react differently.  In the case of Zevran running and getting away, Taliesen wanting to kill him makes so much sense.  As does his trying to get Zevran back from the wardens if he's traveling with them.  Neither would be motivated by love so much as by, well, wanting to win.

I think the thing is, we both see Taliesen differently.  And since we don't get a backstory from him, really, we have to fill in our own blanks. 

Edit: It's a real possibility that Taliesen is lying to Zevran about coming back to the crows.  He wants to kill the Warden, and possibly Zevran as well, and knows how good an assassin Zevran is and wants him on his side.

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 mars 2010 - 03:05 .

[EccentricSage]

I don't see why Taliesen didn't make a bid on the Wardens the first time around, then. Zevran was the only one who did, and failed. I think that should only make the job even less appealing. So to me, it just doesn't add up. And I would expect his motivations should be the same regardless of circumstance until his own life is in peril (when Zev chooses to fight alongside the Wardens, Taliesen has to fight Zev) It doesn't make sense that he would sacrifice his life trying to avenge Zevran if you killed him, but then want to kill Zevran if you didn't.

[ejoslin]

Well, again, you don't know enough about the circumstances behind Taliesen volunteering to bring back Zevran or why he ended up with that contract. If Taliesen is Zevran's master or even his mentor, it may reflect badly on him that Zevran failed.

[EccentricSage]

ejoslin wrote...

Well, again, you don't know enough about the circumstances behind Taliesen volunteering to bring back Zevran or why he ended up with that contract. If Taliesen is Zevran's master or even his mentor, it may reflect badly on him that Zevran failed.

If that's how you want to see it, I can't change your mind.  I just don't see that at all, based on Zevran's own statements.  I never got any impression that he has to answer to Taliesen.  Only that they were partners at times.

[ejoslin]

EccentricSage wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Well, again, you don't know enough about the circumstances behind Taliesen volunteering to bring back Zevran or why he ended up with that contract. If Taliesen is Zevran's master or even his mentor, it may reflect badly on him that Zevran failed.

If that's how you want to see it, I can't change your mind.  I just don't see that at all, based on Zevran's own statements.  I never got any impression that he has to answer to Taliesen.  Only that they were partners at times.

No, that's based on what Ignacio says -- I go back and forth based on whether I believe that or not.  It's also possible, if they're equals, that if you kill Zevran, Taliesen isn't given a choice about taking the contract -- that he's told to take care of it; you only know that he volunteers if Zevran is still alive.  Or perhaps he's lying to Zevran even about that.  Or it could be a sense of possessiveness -- in the toolset Taliesen is supposed to be a lot older than Zevran (though the toolset ages are not set in stone). I'm just giving alternatives to them being close and caring.  Nothing I see in Taliesen's behavior strikes me as either.  All I'm saying is you don't get enough information about Taliesen so there's a remarkable freedom to fill in his backstory.

This is just one part of the story where there is not a lot of information.  Which is great.  I'm not asking to have my mind changed -- it's something I'm not sure about myself.  It's a big part of why the romance can be so different for people!

Edit: I actually find it most likely that Taliesen didn't find out about Zevran's death until after he agreed to go find him and bring him back.  It's very possible that at that point, no one knew what had happened -- everyone at the ambush died.  The Crows heard nothing, so Taliesen volunteered to find out what happened.

Second edit: Zevran traveling with the warden would not mean that he had betrayed the Crows, he may just be biding his time for another attempt.  And Zevran not traveling with the warden would not necessarily mean a failed attempt; it could just mean he hadn't attempted at all yet.

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 mars 2010 - 04:15 .