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[Creature 1]

EccentricSage wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

In my mind Taliesin and Zevran met right after Zevran was purchased, and were later separated and then reunited. I think he could still feel something for Zevran because he was a tie to the person that Taliesin had once been. Probably a good deal of his feelings for Zevran were mixed up with nostalgia for the friend Zevran had been, and the child that Taliesin had been. Probably Zevran is the only person that Taliesin could love.

Of course that's my story. YMMV.

Might it be... a ficci? 

Yes, and it might be 5k words right now, but it also might never be seen by eyes besides my own! 

Pleeeeeaaaaaase?   

It's unpleasant to write, and I don't know if I'll finish it because of that.  If I do, I might feel more that it ought to be buried under cover of darkness rather than put out where other people can see it!  I'm more writing it because I need to figure out the backstory to figure out Zevran's motivations in my other fic.  

[EccentricSage]

You make good points ejoslin!



Well Creature, I'd love to read your fics if ever you're willing. I'm trying to write some, too, though they read more like scripts. I don't mind dark material and you don't have to worry about my reaction to it, seriously. But I won't pester you about it further. I just wish people wouldn't tempt me by saying they're writing a fic about something I'm interested in and then saying they won't likely show me it. lol Meany!

[TheComfyCat]

Zevran has a line when you get the the bridge part of the gauntlet.. something like, "I trust my friends, alright. I trust them to stab me in the back."

That line made me think that friendship (or FWB) in the Crows was more a possible means of manipulation rather than a bond of trust or anything like that. Which would make it hard for Zevran to ever really have experienced love for Rinna or Taliesen, since Zev would always have to wonder if he was being used.

[Nonvita]

Nooooooo how could you all have a discussion on Taliesin's voice while I was stuck on a plane?! It's one of those things I love to rant about. The problem isn't the perkiness, or the casualness, it's the nasaliness. The dude sounds like he needs some Nyquil and fast. And *why* the Ferelden accent? Oriana I can pretend to justify by saying that she's a noblewoman who would have learned the Ferelden language when young and that's why she has no accent. But Taliesin?...

And the only reason I think he went after the GW is because he saw Zevran's betrayal not as being against the Crows but as against himself. I think Taliesin saw himself as having control over Zevran that was lost when the GW saved him, so he thinks he can get that back either by getting Zevran to return with him (in which case Zevran would obviously only be returning for Taliesan's sake- which shows Taliesin still holds the power), or by killing Zevran outright. He comes to avenge Zevran's death only in the case that Zevran never actually 'betrayed' the Crows because he was killed, but otherwise Taliesin takes it extremely personally and refuses to believe that Zevran could break free from him so easily. I definitely think Taliesin sees himself as a puppet master with Zevran as his puppet.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!


Now, CZ, where are those banners you promised?! My Spring Break is ending and I need something to cheer me up!

[Cuddlezarro]

Now, CZ, where are those banners you promised?!

currently stuck in the realm of artist block im afraid sorry I will get them done I promice (and if you want something to cheer you up check the batch of NSFW screenies I posted earlier)

[SurrealSadi]

I saw the first batch and nearly fell over trying to not laugh. I saw the second batch, and hurt myself trying to not laugh. Thanks!



The night out was fun, despite the really lousy(and drunk) singing. The potentially large group I had been expecting turned out to be only 6 people total. Likely will be doing this more often, if possible. Only problem is I'm gonna have a headache tomorrow, and I got home at 1 am, and spent the last hour and a half catching up, and I won't get to play till after Mom goes to bed tonight.

[Cuddlezarro]

I saw the first batch and nearly fell over trying to not laugh. I saw the second batch, and hurt myself trying to not laugh. Thanks!

why thank you (though you really should thank charsen he made the mod)

also I was playing Awakening and SMALL SPOILERS


Nathaniels sister insults Xander to his face without realizing he was there...cow (I have pictures of it if any one wants them but Ill post them tommorow since Im really tired)

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 22 mars 2010 - 07:27 .

[Sannox]

ejoslin wrote...
I think the way Zevran viewed friendship changed just as the way he viewed love changed.  Later he will say "In the Crows, we do not have "friends," and yet here you are and I cannot help but consider you such."  The warden, friend or lover, is the first real friend that Zevran had.  Just as as a lover, the warden was his first real love.  His relationships before her were shallow, surface type relationships. 

I think it's actually the other way around for him - that what he feels is bigger than what's on the surface.   He feels more for the warden than he has ever done for anyone, I think, and it's the first time that he admits to himself that it might be love.   But he is able to do that because he is away from the Crows, and because being spared changed his life.   That doesn't mean that he was cold or shallow before - he tried to suppress feelings of love and warmth, but I imagine they were still there.  Rinna affeccts him so deeply because he loved her, or something close.   Taliesin, I don't know, but I think he must have cared for him - he does call him a friend, despite saying that the Crows don't have friends.  

[Ramante]

The thing that bugs me about Taliesen is not only his voice but also the way he talks. He talks about Zevran and the Warden very.. lightly (makes sense? is direct translation). He didn't seem to take either of them serious, and it felt like he was talking about his dog when he spoke of Zevran. He seemed to think that Zevran would listen to him and join him just because he wanted that to happen.

I'll probably edit this after a few minutes, because I got a feeling I'm not saying anything with this post. o.o

Edit: because I said so.

Modifié par Ramante, 22 mars 2010 - 09:12 .

[Sannox]

EccentricSage wrote...
I think it's the voice... it sounded a bit cheezy and he didn't have an Antivian accent.  Made me think they simply settled for someone at the last minute.


As for the rest of the debate...

We don't actually know anything about Taliesen's circumstances, really.  Since in certain epilogues Zevran can become leader of the Crows, it sounds like race isn't as big an issue in the organization as it is in general society.  Also, they never specified that only elves are slaves.  Zevran spoke of them buying children in general, and I'm sure some of the children of ****s were human, especially since a human man with an elf woman is supposed to produce a human child.  It's perfectly possible that Taliesen could be a slave himself.  I suppose he didn't get the 'you are worthless to us' speech that Zevran got after Rina, and didn't feal for Rina the way Zev did, so THAT would explain why Taliesen is so taken aback by Zevran revealing that he will NOT return to the Crows.  Taliesen doesn't realize that there is a chance to switch sides.  Zevran didn't know it himself untill he was laying in the dirt waiting for the Warden to finish him, wondering why he's still alive.  Taliesen never had that moment.  Zevran's chance at a new life was sheer luck.  And I doubt Zevran would look and sound so heartbroken about Taliesen's death if Taliesen hadn't shown him some real loyalty and kindness.  You get the sence there was a real bond there, but you never learn more about it.

I think Taliesen and Zevran are equals in a way.  They have differing strengths and weeknesses, but work well as a team.  If Taliesen were anything akin to a master to Zevran, I rather doubt Zevran would have headed off on a suicide mission to begin with.  I think Taliesen would have stopped him from doing something that is so stupid from a survivalist's POV.  And that's what the Crows are untill they break... pure survivalists.  It's all they have.

I imagine reguardless of race they must have shared much of the same hell.  I doubt they were able to express any bond in ways that are normal to us, as their masters would see that as a threat or weakness.  That's why Taliesen's cold demeanor strikes me as a cover.  He's as terrified at what he feels for Zevran, and the idea of betraying the Crows, as Zevran was about the same theoretical situation with Rinna (though she had turned out to be innocent of the betrayal)

It is exactly as Zev says... his only fault being his priorities.  Zevran used to have the same priorities.  Taliesen simply wasn't as lucky as Zevran.  I see it as nothing less than tragic.  Shakespearian even.  Though of course it's no fault of Zevrans.  It's one of those twists of fate that a characters can't escape from.  No hero can save the characters from the simple playing out of cause and effect, the characters are hopeless victim of sircumstance.

Yes, I think that Taliesin is pretty much like Zevran before Rinna (although without the charm and the sexy accent).    It's not only Zevran who has been abused and taught to be cold.  They all have, but all of them end up loving under the surface.  Zevran falls in love with Rinna.  Rinna falls in love with Zevran, and even recognises it and admits it.   Taliesin (I believe) falls in love with Zevran - I think love is the only motivator that would be strong enough for Taliesin to try to kill a grey warden to get Zevran back.  (I thought that Zevran was a special case in his capacity to love, but it looks like all of them loved despite their training).  I don't know if Zevran loved Taliesin, but I think it was close, considering that he calls him a friend (and considering his conversation with the warden about friendship) and 'more'.

Taliesin appearing cold - I think that makes sense  (although I'm not too keen on the voice acting there either).  He is not any more cold than Zevran laughing at Rinna and saying that he didn't care if she loved him or betrayed him.   And the encounter isn't a one to one with Zevran.  He starts off talking to the grey warden, and he's risking death.   As with Zevran, I think what he does tells the truth - he 'volunteers' (something only Zevran would do, and only because he wanted to die) to pit himself against a grey warden to have him back.  (I also think that Zevran is a little cold in his responses to Taliesin, considering what Taliesin is doing.  I suppose Zevran does have to shut off his feelings at that point though, and he does apologise). 

It also makes sense to me that he wouldn't tell the warden of his plan if Zevran had left the party - why would he?  So he pretends he's on the mission he's supposed to be on. 

Taliesin also volunteers to help 'arrogant' Zevran on the dangerous mission where Rinna is killed.  (Possibly another incidence of Taliesin taking risks to be with Zevran.  And sorry about the spelling - I just end up typing Taliesin because it's the most common spelling).  

Yes, it's tragic.  Zevran doesn't manage to save Rinna.  He contributes to her death in the most horrible way.  The Taliesin encounter brings Zevran's story full circle, when he kills another lover.   I wish there was a way to intervene and let him save Taliesin instead.   If that's not possible, I would at least like the opportunity to talk to him about it, like you get the opportunity to talk to Alistair about Duncan.

Modifié par Sannox, 22 mars 2010 - 09:19 .

[Einhild]

Charisma. Alistair > Zevran, but just barely, IMHO. I think there is something vulnerable about Zevran, he has always had guards up but eventually really lets the MC in. There is something about earning that trust that makes it feel more tangible, more substantial, than just a slobbering lap dog that's like "OMG YOU'RE A GIRL... *drool*", however sweet the latter behavior can come off. Alistair wins for me because of his devotion, loyalty, and caring. Zevran though makes me long for the bad boy, the untamed unbridled force that you can't contain. Zevran would certainly make life interesting, and could love you to the best of his ability. That said Alistair is safe, and offers stability, safety. I think comparing the two characters, it would depend on where a girl or guy is emotionally at the time to otherwise discern what the appeal may be.

[Sannox]

Ramante wrote...
He seemed to think that Zevran would listen to him and join him just because he wanted that to happen.
.

I said a little bit above about Taliesin being taught to be cold, like Zevran.  And Taliesin has seen how Zevran reacted to a confession of love (from Rinna).  

He has no reason to think Zevran wouldnt want to join him.  He doesn't know about Zevran wanting to escape the Crows.   (Zevran has explained that there is much to like about being a Crow, once you survive the training).   He knows that Zevran can't leave the grey warden's service, because then the Crows might kill him.   When Taliesin says he can come back and not be killed, then why would he refuse (from Taliesin's point of view)?   So I agree - I don't think it occurs to Taliesin that Zevran will say no - why would he?  

[Tellervo]

Somewhat off topic to the heated debate on Taliesen's motivations and his relationship with Zevran (someone has already made the same observations I would offer), but appropriate to the original topic of this thread, and something I've wanted to say for a while and don't think I have....



It was Zevran's talk about freedom and choice. Won me and my mage warden (who I consider my primary) over instantly. It really felt like they'd walked the same road, though utter strangers and nations apart.

[Ramante]

Sannox wrote...
He has no reason to think Zevran wouldnt want to join him.  He doesn't know about Zevran wanting to escape the Crows.   (Zevran has explained that there is much to like about being a Crow, once you survive the training).   He knows that Zevran can't leave the grey warden's service, because then the Crows might kill him.   When Taliesin says he can come back and not be killed, then why would he refuse (from Taliesin's point of view)?   So I agree - I don't think it occurs to Taliesin that Zevran will say no - why would he?  

Zevran can't leave the Grey Warden's service not only because the Crows might kill him, but also because the Warden will kill him. I think it is very naive of Taliesen to think that Zevran will survive when he leaves the Warden. The Warden has shown mercy once, but he/she is not a saint. If Zevran decides to turn against the Warden, he is dead meat. By the time you meet Taliesen Zevran knows too much, he has been with you for months (in-game) so the only wise thing to do is kill him if he decides to betray you.
I'm just saying Taliesen is an idiot for taking on a Grey Warden, with or without Zevran involved.

The Taliesen encounter was a laugh with my elven mage, I just couldn't believe Taliesen took that particular moment to ambush my Warden. You must be really stupid if you take on an AW/SH, a giant Qunari, a head-crushing Golem, Zevran and his pet-bear.

Tellervo wrote...
It was Zevran's talk about freedom and choice. Won me and my mage warden (who I consider my primary) over instantly. It really felt like they'd walked the same road, though utter strangers and nations apart.

I know what you mean, especially to a mage (who has been locked in a tower for years) a talk about freedom and choice sounds very good. I think that it creates some sort of 'connection' between them, because they have had the same sort of history.

Modifié par Ramante, 22 mars 2010 - 09:40 .

[Sannox]

Ramante wrote...

Zevran can't leave the Grey Warden's service not only because the Crows might kill him, but also because the Warden will kill him. I think it is very naive of Taliesen to think that Zevran will survive when he leaves the Warden. The Warden has shown mercy once, but he/she is not a saint. If Zevran decides to turn against the Warden, he is dead meat. By the time you meet Taliesen Zevran knows too much, he has been with you for months (in-game) so the only wise thing to do is kill him if he decides to betray you.
I'm just saying Taliesen is an idiot for taking on a Grey Warden, with or without Zevran involved.

The Taliesen encounter was a laugh with my elven mage, I just couldn't believe Taliesen took that particular moment to ambush my Warden. You must be really stupid if you take on an AW/SH, a giant Qunari, a head-crushing Golem, Zevran and his pet-bear.

Yes.  In 'reality' (game reality) our wardens would probably let Zevran go alive if he wanted to, but Taliesin has no way of knowing that.   As far as he can see, Zevran is as trapped and as much of slave with the warden as he was with the Crows (if not  more so).    I think Taliesin plans to try to kill the Grey Warden to get Zevran back, if necessary.

And yes, I think he is pretty much doomed to lose, but I think he knows that.  (Which is what makes me think he must be in love).

[Sannox]

Tellervo wrote...

It was Zevran's talk about freedom and choice. Won me and my mage warden (who I consider my primary) over instantly. It really felt like they'd walked the same road, though utter strangers and nations apart.

I felt a connection with my mage too.  (I think the Circle is described as a 'pretty cage', and Zevran's description of life as a Crow brought that to mind). 

I also felt a connection with my dwarf commoner, for different reasons.   The DC, maybe had more freedom and choice, but had the same need to be ruthless to survive, and possibly the same repressed emotional development.   It was interesting going back and meeting Leske again, and finding that loyalty and friendship couldn't get in the way of survival.  

[Ramante]

Sannox wrote...

Tellervo wrote...

It was Zevran's talk about freedom and choice. Won me and my mage warden (who I consider my primary) over instantly. It really felt like they'd walked the same road, though utter strangers and nations apart.

I felt a connection with my mage too.  (I think the Circle is described as a 'pretty cage', and Zevran's description of life as a Crow brought that to mind). 

I also felt a connection with my dwarf commoner, for different reasons.   The DC, maybe had more freedom and choice, but had the same need to be ruthless to survive, and possibly the same repressed emotional development.   It was interesting going back and meeting Leske again, and finding that loyalty and friendship couldn't get in the way of survival.  

For this reason I like the dialogue option 'You want to compare our lives? Don't be a fool.' paraphrased obviously. I think Zevran can indeed compare his live with practically every Warden origin except the HN and maybe also the DN. That's why I find it a shame that in the dialogue option that 'don't be a fool.' comes with the question. Because the comparing live parts makes a lot of sense to me.

[ejoslin]

Keep in mind, when Zevran talks about how their lives are similar, he's not talking about circumstances -- he's talking about how they're both survivors. He knows that his life has been nothing like a noblewoman's or a dwarven princess's; he also sees that despite suffering, they're both survivors, and in fact that pain is what makes them "better" than most other people.

Here's that dialog, and I like it a LOT (though he doesn't).

Zevran: Surely your life has not been so idyllic? People like you and I are not the product of happy lives of contentment, after all. (pointed)
Warden: You'd compare my life to yours?
Zevran: Are we so different, you and I? Buffeted by the winds of fate, brought to this point by both circumstance and excellence? (said with a rueful chuckle)
Warden: I am human, and noble.
Zevran: If you wish to look at things on the surface, by all means. No matter. (amused, indifferent)

Or are you talking about a different exchange?

Edit: I like excuses to pull out the toolset

Second edit: One thing I love about the Zevran romance is how you can fill in the backstory in so many different ways.  I obviously disagree with ES and Sannox, and I won't repeat myself (at least, not TODAY) but I don't think any of us are wrong.  It's part of what makes it truly magical, how we can put ourselves into it.

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 mars 2010 - 10:54 .

[ejoslin]

Einhild wrote...

Charisma. Alistair > Zevran, but just barely, IMHO. I think there is something vulnerable about Zevran, he has always had guards up but eventually really lets the MC in. There is something about earning that trust that makes it feel more tangible, more substantial, than just a slobbering lap dog that's like "OMG YOU'RE A GIRL... *drool*", however sweet the latter behavior can come off. Alistair wins for me because of his devotion, loyalty, and caring. Zevran though makes me long for the bad boy, the untamed unbridled force that you can't contain. Zevran would certainly make life interesting, and could love you to the best of his ability. That said Alistair is safe, and offers stability, safety. I think comparing the two characters, it would depend on where a girl or guy is emotionally at the time to otherwise discern what the appeal may be.

It's funny, I see Zevran at the end as more loyal that Alistair.  Alistair cannot be as loyal as Zevran is because he has outside pressures and responsibilities (either as king or as a grey warden).

Also, Zevran more than loves you to the best of his ability -- his loving the warden is really ALL he is, he'd go to hell and back just for the chance to be with her.  I read that you got the earring, but did you get his declaration of feelings?  The part after he refuses to go to the tent?  If you refuse the earring the first time, he ends up offering it again, which can be taken as a proposal.  There's a devotion there that isn't present with Alistair, because Alistair cannot devote himself that fully to someone.

[EccentricSage]

Uuuuugh... I just spent hours making a mage character, only to have him look awful once I was in game. WTF is up with the lighting in the Character creator?! I still played through part way out of curiosity and wow... I expected the Mage irigin to be really dark and creepy and harrowing... But even the harrowing was not harrowing. My my what lovely and helpful demons. And why is it that all the mages talk about constantly being watched by templars, but then you do the origin and there are hardly any templars there, and not as many mages as beds from the looks of it, ether. I really didn't get any sense of horror out of it at all aside from the whole thing with Jowan finding out he's going to be made tranquil.



Where's the overhearing of gossip and misplaced accusations and fear of punishment from Templars, etc? I got a way more frightening impression of the Circle from outside the circle. Oh, and how the hell did the writer, whomever it was, manage to make Jowan so annoying that I had to convince myself to help my character's best friend escape the tower? I really didn't even get a sense of history from this Origin.



Really, I expected it to be one of the most exciting origins and it's just 'Pft.' And the VA on Jowan and his Girlfriend is just so lousy.[end rant]



Anyhow.... I'm glad that I'm not the only one who things Taliesin had feelings for Zev. Everyone can interpret it as they please, but I feel vindicated none the less. lol

[ejoslin]

I turned Jowon in. Couldn't stand him.

[Sannox]

I'm trying to say something which is a spoiler, so this might take a few edits.
ETA: Changing the text colour isn't working for me so I'll just delete it and keep quiet.   I'm sorry if anybody managed to see the spoiler while it was up. 

Modifié par Sannox, 22 mars 2010 - 11:28 .

[Minaleth]

@ awakening - they better come up with good story how this happened, because it contradicts lot of things stated in origins. maybe those guys were not crows, who knows.

In Origins I believe Zevran told the warden that he would watch the signs of crows while he is by warden's side and he might see through another attempt if crows prepared something smarter. He didn't say that he would know about the attack directly.

What he's doing during Awakening could have 100 possible explanations that are plausible with Origins background given. 

Modifié par Minaleth, 22 mars 2010 - 11:37 .

[Sannox]

I think Jowan asks you to do an awful lot for him in the name of friendship, and it's difficult to feel a connection of friendship right at the beginning of the game. But there isn't much option - it's that or betray him, when most likely people would just refuse to help and never talk to Irving. I tried to imagine my mage was desparately bored, and caught up in the romance of it all.

[ejoslin]

Hahahaha, I actually created a thread regarding that whole thing. Hold on, I'll find the link.