35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Creature 1]

Sabriana wrote...

Well Jenovan, I have found out that it really depends on the individual point of view. When I heard it, I automatically assumed he meant 'more than friends' as in 'more like a brother'.

Googling "more than friends" seems to suggest this is a minority interpretation of the phrase! 

I still can't see them as lovers, because they were far too close professionally to mess it up with sexual relations.

My impression is the Crows had a "Brave New World" attitude towards sex, where being good at it is frequently required for career advancement, it is supposed to be severed from emotional attachment, and withholding is just not being a team player.  

Talking to Ignacio also reveals that Zevran was Taliesen's 'responsiblity'. It means to me that he was Zevran's master (Crow's quests).

I think that's referring to Taliesin's volunteering to track Zevran down.

[jenovan]

Creature 1 wrote...

IMO Taliesin was another run-of-the mill assassin. In the story about Rinna it sounds like they were all working as equals, or possibly with Zevran in charge, and Taliesin doesn't want to report the screwup to the higher-ups.

I'm trying to sort all of that out for my story and still don't have it figured out. In my version currently they met when Zevran was first bought by the Crows but then were sent to different locations before being reunited. But that may change.

Concur about the non-romantic extracurricular activities, but IMO Taliesin took that more seriously than Zevran.

Edit:  I have an impression that among the Crow rank and file, sex and race don't really matter.  Potentially supporting this notion is the fact that Zevran can take over the Crows in the epilogue, which would mean they don't even mind elves in leadership positions.  Probably because elves make good assassins, and the Crow's chief concern is that you're good at your job. 

Interesting...
True enough about the Crows' hierarchy -- it makes sense that it's a meritocracy.  Although I don't know if the Crows would have been so willing to accept an elven leader if he hadn't made a bunch of higher-ups disappear first...   I suppose I'm thinking of how Zevran was bought as a slave, but we don't really know if that only applied to elves...

[ejoslin]

jenovan wrote...

Interesting...
True enough about the Crows' hierarchy -- it makes sense that it's a meritocracy.  Although I don't know if the Crows would have been so willing to accept an elven leader if he hadn't made a bunch of higher-ups disappear first...   I suppose I'm thinking of how Zevran was bought as a slave, but we don't really know if that only applied to elves...

Sure you do -- they buy elves because they were beautiful, but that doesn't mean they didn't buy humans as well.  When you ask him about Antiva, he tells you about the apartment in the leather making district that they packed the youngest recruits into, and that the humans among them complained constantly of the stench.

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 janvier 2010 - 10:21 .

[jenovan]

ejoslin wrote...
Sure you do -- they buy elves because they were beautiful, but that doesn't mean they didn't buy humans as well.  When you ask him about Antiva, he tells you about the apartment in the leather making district that they packed the youngest recruits into, and that the humans among them complained constantly of the stench.

Weeeell... that still doesn't imply (or not) that they bought the humans... I guess what I'm wondering is if human slavery is still okay (if sketchy...) in Antiva or other places. 

Although I'm sure there are families poor or desperate enough to sell their children, no matter where they are in Thedas.

[ejoslin]

They had human children though, so why wouldn't they be slaves? My guess is there were also human prostitutes who had children, who were raised communally and then sold. And keeping in mind that in Thedas there are no half elves -- elf + human = human -- there would probably be more human children for sale than elven children.

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 janvier 2010 - 10:36 .

[Sabriana]

When my PC took the crow job (killing a Loghain thug), he talked about the crow cells and that his cell was different than Zevran's, and that in Zevran's cell Taliesen was Zevran's master/superior. I put it down a bit simplified, but it had nothing to do with Taliesen hunting down Zevran, iirc.



Edited, because Ejoslin is right. It truly is up to how the first impressions of individual turn out.

Modifié par Sabriana, 21 janvier 2010 - 11:17 .

[ejoslin]

Sabriana, you could be right about Taliesen being Zevran's superior. I didn't get that impression, but I understand what you're saying. Taliesen did volunteer to get Zevran back, he wasn't sent, and Zevran does speak a bit bitterly about one of the masters, and Taliesen doesn't seem to be one of those. Zevran places his own bids, which makes him a master as well in the way that Ignacio describes it. Taliesen did offer to help Zevran with the Gray Warden, which obviously was Zevran's responsibility, and Zevran turned him down.



However, with the "more than friends," since the game is Canadian, my guess is if they meant something other than what that means over here in the US and Canada, they would have used a different term, like referring to him as a close friend (which is what you're taking it for). Here, when you say more than friends, it generally means having sex but not in love.

[Sabriana]

ejoslin wrote...

Sabriana, you could be right about Taliesen being Zevran's superior. I didn't get that impression, but I understand what you're saying. Taliesen did volunteer to get Zevran back, he wasn't sent, and Zevran does speak a bit bitterly about one of the masters, and Taliesen doesn't seem to be one of those. Zevran places his own bids, which makes him a master as well in the way that Ignacio describes it. Taliesen did offer to help Zevran with the Gray Warden, which obviously was Zevran's responsibility, and Zevran turned him down.

However, with the "more than friends," since the game is Canadian, my guess is if they meant something other than what that means over here in the US and Canada, they would have used a different term, like referring to him as a close friend (which is what you're taking it for). Here, when you say more than friends, it generally means having sex but not in love.

You are right, of course, but I am only describing what my initial impression was. It was achieved with all that it surrounds, namely Zevran stating that they never mix business with pleasure, and that sex is devoid of emotions, just a pleasure thing. Plus, if Taliesen really set Rinna up out of jealousy, then Zevran seems to be kind of naive. Unless Taliesen is a great actor, and the emotional involvement was one-sided.

Perhaps it was because they were friends that I had that impression, because friendship does involve emotions to begin with. That could get very messy, and perhaps it did on Taliesen's side, considering Rinna. Could be that Zevran treated sex between friends like other people treat a nice game of chess between friends. I guess I'm incapable of wrapping my head around the notion that sex between friends doesn't automatially mean that emotions are involved.

You see, my first impression when he talks about the merchant prince he got the earring from, I thought right away that Zevran had sex with the man, whupped out the murder knife, and took the earring from the corpse. That would be more in line of how I think non-romantic sex works.

Sorry about the outburst in the other post. I'm not normaly that touchy, but I guess posting at midnight, being cranky, with a headache should be immediately put on my "do not do" list.

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

You are right, of course, but I am only describing what my initial impression was. It was achieved with all that it surrounds, namely Zevran stating that they never mix business with pleasure, and that sex is devoid of emotions, just a pleasure thing. Plus, if Taliesen really set Rinna up out of jealousy, then Zevran seems to be kind of naive. Unless Taliesen is a great actor, and the emotional involvement was one-sided.

Perhaps it was because they were friends that I had that impression, because friendship does involve emotions to begin with. That could get very messy, and perhaps it did on Taliesen's side, considering Rinna. Could be that Zevran treated sex between friends like other people treat a nice game of chess between friends. I guess I'm incapable of wrapping my head around the notion that sex between friends doesn't automatially mean that emotions are involved.

You see, my first impression when he talks about the merchant prince he got the earring from, I thought right away that Zevran had sex with the man, whupped out the murder knife, and took the earring from the corpse. That would be more in line of how I think non-romantic sex works.

Isabela, though, would be a different kind of situation.  He obviously was having sex with her, on going, as a way to get close to her husband (hahaha, nearly getting himself killed in the process), and after he killed him, left.  But it was pleasurable for both, and left them with good memories.  But it was still just business. It was a part of the training, but one of the more enjoyable aspects of the job.  If you view sex as an expression of love, then yes, it would be hard to wrap your head around this.  But if you view sex as just one of life's many pleasures, then maybe it's not so difficult.  Men as a general rule are better at separating the physical from the emotional when it comes to sex anyway.

And, if Zevran leaves during the fight, when you talk to him later, he is visibly upset over Taliesen's death.

[Thiefy]

i need help getting the earring offered a second time. =/



i rejected it the first time saying "i'll only take it if it means something" and then do the landsmeet, but afterwards can't get him to offer it again. is there supposed to be another dialouge option or does he offer it again automatically?

[ejoslin]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

i need help getting the earring offered a second time. =/

i rejected it the first time saying "i'll only take it if it means something" and then do the landsmeet, but afterwards can't get him to offer it again. is there supposed to be another dialouge option or does he offer it again automatically?

It's not automatic.  You need to ask him to your tent.  But even after he declares his feelings, not all of your dialog choices will end in a second offering of an earring -- telling him you feel the same I believe does NOT end up in him offering the earring, but telling him you're no wiser than he or asking him if it would better for him if you two broke up, does.

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 janvier 2010 - 12:21 .

[Addai]

I loaded up a game save from my Dalish character and best I can tell, she had Zevran at +64 (never romanced or tent-ed) when he helped her fight Taliesen.

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

I loaded up a game save from my Dalish character and best I can tell, she had Zevran at +64 (never romanced or tent-ed) when he helped her fight Taliesen.

Interesting.  I wonder if it's because he was never romanced, or if because she was a Dalish.  I suspect because she was a Dalish as I have noticed that Zevran has different approval gains and such depending on race on occasion.  I have a Dalish that I could possibly replay to check, but usually I'm at 100 before even hitting Orzammar so I'd have to go back quite far, possibly to picking him up.  But definitely worth checking to see what the differences are.

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

I loaded up a game save from my Dalish character and best I can tell, she had Zevran at +64 (never romanced or tent-ed) when he helped her fight Taliesen.

Ok, I had a save right before the encounter, and a couple of bars in my inventory, so I chose to break it off right before the encounter and give the bars, bringing my PC up to 68 warm.  He stuck with her no matter what.  This actually makes a lot of sense if Zevran and Taliesen were lovers.  If he and the PC are romancing but not at adore, then it's a choice between an old lover and someone who may become his lover -- he cares equally for both as at that point the relationship would probably be the same (someone he admires, someone he's attracted to, someone he cares for, but neither that he adores).  If they're just friends, it's a choice between an old life and a new life.

This PC had not gone to his tent.  That may make a difference as well.

Edit: Even at 49 warm, he will not leave.  I can't rekindle the romance though.

Second edit: Gah, I can't stand not knowing.  I'm going to test going to the tent, losing approval on it, and seeing what happens!

Ok, if he's romancing, tent or no tent, he will leave you if you if you answer anything but "Zevran doesn't need the crows anymore" if you're under 70.   save games!  If you're just friends, he'll stay.  If he's dumped, he'll ask to leave.  And I'm sure there are other variables in there.  I haven't tried glitching it to "adore" under 70, which can happen, but I doubt it will make a difference.

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 janvier 2010 - 08:14 .

[FaeriesBite]

After reading through the whole awesome thread (kudos to all the contributors) I've decided to add my two bits from another POV you might find interesting. To me, the whole Alistair-Warden-Zevran dynamic resembles the main relationships in the opera Carmen (wiki/google it if you like).

To make the paralells visible in bullet points:

Alistair/Don José - a young soldier longing for a (return to) life with his family, with only a single close friend to give him any semblance of belonging. Thrown together with a strong woman by circumstances, he falls in love and ends up following her every whim. His proclamations of love are insistent, but he's ultimately weak and can't honor his promises properly/ends up killing his lover after she leaves him. <_< Major difference: Alistair remains steadfast in his devotion to the Wardens, while Don Joseé gets so weak he can't even be moved to go see his sick mother.

fem!Warden/Carmen - a strong, indepentent woman using her cunning to get out of messes. She trusts her instincts, faces death without shirking away from her beliefs. Also, she's not above twisting the rules to suit her purposes. Depending on your playthrough, there's more, but from a Zevran-romancing Warden POV, it's possible she eventually realizes the total dependence of Alistair/Don José on her and practically dismisses him.

Zevran/Escamillo - a renowned assassin/bullfighter, he's an apparently free-spirited and open-minded man, taking things in stride. This includes the initial rejection of his advances towards the heroine, but he continues actively trying to win her favor. :)When he wins her love, he seems most content and is apparently genuinely in love with her as well (open to interpretation in the opera). He likes her as who she is, not idealizing her or trying to change her.

You have to look at the plot a little to see the connections, but the game is set up similarly - you meet Alistair first, which makes his romance likelier for first-time players. One gets the feeling that whereas Alistair/Don José isn't able to let go of his love because he can't imagine life without her, Zevran/Escamillo is determined to find happiness in the moment it presents itself.

Yes, opera singer-in-training here. Which is why I totally adore Maferath's ram-horn helmet. Stock parody of Wagner ftw.

Edited because the formating is weird.

Modifié par FaeriesBite, 22 janvier 2010 - 08:22 .

[Creature 1]

FaeriesBite wrote...

After reading through the whole awesome thread (kudos to all the contributors) I've decided to add my two bits from another POV you might find interesting. To me, the whole Alistair-Warden-Zevran dynamic resembles the main relationships in the opera Carmen (wiki/google it if you like).

You're not the only one.  I drew that parallel in some thread.  But I put Zevran as Carmen and Taliesin as Don Jose.   I guess the PC gets to be Escamillo! 

[Sabriana]

Ok, then we just have to agree to disagree, and that's entirely a good thing. I say that there is/was too much emotion involved in the Zevran/Taliesen relationship to be just chucked off as non-romantic if sex is involved. In my view Taliesen is a mentor and an advisor, as well as a superior. That Zevran can put in bids is because the superior takes them to the minions and they can bid on them.

Do the Crows have extreme levity when it comes to sex? Yes, they do indeed. But the Zevran/Taliesen relationship is different. He's very sad when Taliesen dies. That is high emotion right there. Listenting to Ignacio once again tells me, as I interpret it, that Taliesen is the master and Zevran the adoring pupil.

It makes more sense to me this way, and I do mean me personally. Could sex be involved? Yes, why not, being schooled in sexual matters is a Crow thing after all. But seeing it as such a simple thing as being just non-romantic sexual partners is not right in my view of the character of Zevran

He tells my PC that he never had a friend before.

He tells my PC that the feelings he has for her are reckless and essentially will lead to a great big mess, according to his breeding to be an assassin.

He says that not only once, but also in the blurbs.

I guess we agree to disagree here, but I don't think the relationship between Taliesen and Zevran can be shrugged off as a 'non-romantic' relationship if sexual relations of the higher degree are involved.
Love this game. Love it, love it, truly. No other game can bring out such different points of view, as proven by the many posts in this forum alone.

[jenovan]

ejoslin wrote...
Ok, I had a save right before the encounter, and a couple of bars in my inventory, so I chose to break it off right before the encounter and give the bars, bringing my PC up to 68 warm.  He stuck with her no matter what.  This actually makes a lot of sense if Zevran and Taliesen were lovers.  If he and the PC are romancing but not at adore, then it's a choice between an old lover and someone who may become his lover -- he cares equally for both as at that point the relationship would probably be the same (someone he admires, someone he's attracted to, someone he cares for, but neither that he adores).  If they're just friends, it's a choice between an old life and a new life.

This PC had not gone to his tent.  That may make a difference as well.

Edit: Even at 49 warm, he will not leave.  I can't rekindle the romance though.

Second edit: Gah, I can't stand not knowing.  I'm going to test going to the tent, losing approval on it, and seeing what happens!

Ok, if he's romancing, tent or no tent, he will leave you if you if you answer anything but "Zevran doesn't need the crows anymore" if you're under 70.   save games!  If you're just friends, he'll stay.  If he's dumped, he'll ask to leave.  And I'm sure there are other variables in there.  I haven't tried glitching it to "adore" under 70, which can happen, but I doubt it will make a difference.

Wow!  I love your analysis of that, it really does say something about Zevran's values as well as (possibly, but sure looks like it) his relationship with Taliesen.

Thanks to all you guys with multiple old save games for figuring these things out!  XD

[FaeriesBite]

Creature 1 wrote...

You're not the only one.  I drew that parallel in some thread.  But I put Zevran as Carmen and Taliesin as Don Jose.   I guess the PC gets to be Escamillo! 

You know what, that works too! The thing is, we never find out enough about Taliesin to really go into details there... but yeah, I completely see the Zevran/Carmen parallels. Especially with the you're-my-one-true-love and then oh-look-you-weren't-actually-the-one-too-bad-this-guy/chick-is deal. When in doubt, use Buffy speak.

[ejoslin]

jenovan wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Ok, I had a save right before the encounter, and a couple of bars in my inventory, so I chose to break it off right before the encounter and give the bars, bringing my PC up to 68 warm.  He stuck with her no matter what.  This actually makes a lot of sense if Zevran and Taliesen were lovers.  If he and the PC are romancing but not at adore, then it's a choice between an old lover and someone who may become his lover -- he cares equally for both as at that point the relationship would probably be the same (someone he admires, someone he's attracted to, someone he cares for, but neither that he adores).  If they're just friends, it's a choice between an old life and a new life.

This PC had not gone to his tent.  That may make a difference as well.

Edit: Even at 49 warm, he will not leave.  I can't rekindle the romance though.

Second edit: Gah, I can't stand not knowing.  I'm going to test going to the tent, losing approval on it, and seeing what happens!

Ok, if he's romancing, tent or no tent, he will leave you if you if you answer anything but "Zevran doesn't need the crows anymore" if you're under 70.   save games!  If you're just friends, he'll stay.  If he's dumped, he'll ask to leave.  And I'm sure there are other variables in there.  I haven't tried glitching it to "adore" under 70, which can happen, but I doubt it will make a difference.

Wow!  I love your analysis of that, it really does say something about Zevran's values as well as (possibly, but sure looks like it) his relationship with Taliesen.

Thanks to all you guys with multiple old save games for figuring these things out!  XD

One other thing to support Zevran and Taliesen being lovers -- if he doesn't leave you when you're just friends (it looks like he'll either fight with you or turn on you), then you can never question him about his relationship with Taliesen. His relationship with Taliesen would be irrelevant if either Zevran and the PC are just friends, or if Zevran and Taliesen were not lovers, but someone who is considering being with him would deserve an explanation.  Then again, if he adores the PC, he stays as well, but it could be that at that point he is completely over Taliesen and so it's irrelevant as well.

Well, I'm convinced anyway.

[Creature 1]

FaeriesBite wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

You're not the only one.  I drew that parallel in some thread.  But I put Zevran as Carmen and Taliesin as Don Jose.   I guess the PC gets to be Escamillo! 

You know what, that works too! The thing is, we never find out enough about Taliesin to really go into details there... but yeah, I completely see the Zevran/Carmen parallels. Especially with the you're-my-one-true-love and then oh-look-you-weren't-actually-the-one-too-bad-this-guy/chick-is deal. When in doubt, use Buffy speak.

Zevran and Carmen are in many ways completely unlike.  Carmen fancies herself in love, Zevran fancies himself not in love.  Once actually in love, Zevran doesn't just change his mind.  But I think in some ways their attitudes are similar.  Both try to enjoy life as much as possible, both have a fatalistic attitude, and both use their sexuality to manipulate others. 

I don't think Zevran was in love with Taliesin, certainly never told him so.  He was in love with Rinna, and IMO so freaked out by this that he didn't make much protest when they thought she was a traitor and Taliesin killed her. 

[BlastedLands]

omg, my boyfriend just started his first playthrough.... zev didn't last long in that one. *sigh* now i feel guilty, because i'm sure he killed him because i was annoying him with my obsession for a certain elf.

i'll find myself a corner to cry in now....

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Ok, if he's romancing, tent or no tent, he will leave you if you if you answer anything but "Zevran doesn't need the crows anymore" if you're under 70.   save games!  If you're just friends, he'll stay.  If he's dumped, he'll ask to leave.  And I'm sure there are other variables in there.  I haven't tried glitching it to "adore" under 70, which can happen, but I doubt it will make a difference.

No kidding!  Good to know.  Of course, I find it difficult to not have him at high approval by that point, especially in a romance.  He's pretty easy to please, I find.

As for the Taliesin lover vs. friend argument, the only thing that comes to my mind is that whatever he had with Taliesin, it was not on the same level as with Rinna.  So that is significant, I find.

Modifié par Addai67, 22 janvier 2010 - 09:39 .

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Ok, if he's romancing, tent or no tent, he will leave you if you if you answer anything but "Zevran doesn't need the crows anymore" if you're under 70.   save games!  If you're just friends, he'll stay.  If he's dumped, he'll ask to leave.  And I'm sure there are other variables in there.  I haven't tried glitching it to "adore" under 70, which can happen, but I doubt it will make a difference.

No kidding!  Good to know.  Of course, I find it difficult to not have him at high approval by that point, especially in a romance.  He's pretty easy to please, I find.

I had to make an effort to keep him under 70.  I didn't give him any bars or tent time, and still ended up at 69 just by being decent to him.

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...
As for the Taliesin lover vs. friend argument, the only thing that comes to my mind is that whatever he had with Taliesin, it was not on the same level as with Rinna.  So that is significant, I find.

Hmmm, I'm not actually sure about that -- it was different, but in fact he was quick to betray Rinna.  I thought before seeing the dialog where you question him about Taliesen that Zevran knew all and felt betrayed, it was about being scared of falling in love.  Now i'm not sure.  There's no reason to think he's holding anything back in that conversation either -- he's been nothing but completely honest with the PC in his other conversations.  He says he has no quarrel with Taliesen, and wishes that he never came after them.  He has real regrets that Taliesen is dead and you can tell it pains him greatly.   

However he felt about Rinna, he had no desire to protect her and he did not trust her -- of course, it was because he did not want to.  He was very quick to side with Taliesen over her and let him kill her, he even spit on her.  You know she loved him, and he may have thought he loved her, or maybe he did actually love her and was trying to be cold.  But had the crow master reacted differently, would the whole thing have haunted him the way it did?  Or was it the loss of everything that he thought defined him which haunted him? 

I just think what brought him to the breaking point was far more than Rinna.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 janvier 2010 - 10:44 .