35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Cuddlezarro]

another reason why Warriors are awesome... they have they have attacks that are made of pretty colours! :3

[Nonvita]

Addai67 wrote...

She could if built to do that.  I usually don't take DW Mastery because dagger-dagger is faster and thus deals more damage, so I just don't bother, but there's no reason a rogue can't be a dual longsword or dual axe wielder and use whirlwind.

But it doesn't really make sense to do that. Rogues get greater benefits from weapons with fast attack speeds and high armor penetration. Rogues are going to use fewer special attacks because they're backstabbing, so they want to be backstabbing as often as possible.
Warriors get better benefits from weapons that do higher damage. Warriors are going to use special attacks more often, so they want to do the most damage with those attacks.

Also, a rogue running into a big group of enemies to whirlwind them is way more likely to get killed than the warrior. Unless you're putting your rogue in massive armor, which I wouldn't understand... They also don't have taunt (which does work if used correctly) to draw the enemies onto them. Warriors also have higher resistances and other benefits that work for this type of build.

So no, I don't think a rogue can do those things as effectively as a warrior. I personally think rogues and warriors are suited to very different combat styles, and that each of those styles is very enjoyable when used to its utmost. All I really hope is that some people might get new ideas for their DW warriors and find the unique things that make it fun, and that make it different from a rogue.

[Cuddlezarro]

I personally think rogues and warriors are suited to very different combat styles,

thats because they are

my DWW plays extremly different from my DWR's and Warriors get abilities that Rogues do not (Warriors in general have much better crowd control even mroe so with the right specializations while in my experianc erogues are more suited for taking out tough single targets like bosses with high damage fast backstabs)

but saying a warrior is a gimped rogue is 100% wrong period

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 23 mars 2010 - 10:33 .

[ejoslin]

It is the cunning that makes the difference with rogues, why they're higher damage than dw warriors. I actually don't understand rogues who don't use dual daggers; then again, I really don't get the str build rogues either. And I'm sure someone who's far better at combat and I can tell me why I'm wrong, but my rogue PCs normally do between 45 - 50% of party damage, where Zevran is usually around 25% (which is also quite good).

One advantage warriors have is the mobs come to them; rogues have to run to the mobs. So they're doing MORE damage per hit, but travel time makes for less dps.

Edit: Both warriors and rogues benefit greatly from poison use, but I think DW warriors benefit more.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 mars 2010 - 10:37 .

[Addai]

Nonvita wrote...

But it doesn't really make sense to do that. Rogues get greater benefits from weapons with fast attack speeds and high armor penetration. Rogues are going to use fewer special attacks because they're backstabbing, so they want to be backstabbing as often as possible.

It's all in how you build and play it.  Like I said, I prefer to play my rogues more like warriors.  If they get a backstab, that's great.  With Combat Movement etc., it happens more often than not.  There's no need to put such limitations on a rogue build.  If you want to use the "sexy swords" (ha ha Zevran, you still don't get Maric's Sword, I'm sorry my Antivan friend ) then you just put a little more into str and don't bother with the Lethality line of talents.

Also, a rogue running into a big group of enemies to whirlwind them is way more likely to get killed than the warrior. Unless you're putting your rogue in massive armor, which I wouldn't understand...

No way!  High dexterity means you don't get hit, period.  I'm always having to heal the warriors.  I just realized with Zevran last night that I had been playing him for a long time without an auto-health poultice on his tactics.  I didn't know it because he didn't need it.

So no, I don't think a rogue can do those things as effectively as a warrior. I personally think rogues and warriors are suited to very different combat styles, and that each of those styles is very enjoyable when used to its utmost. All I really hope is that some people might get new ideas for their DW warriors and find the unique things that make it fun, and that make it different from a rogue.

We'll just have to disagree on this one!  Like I said, I've played DW warriors on multiple playthroughs, and if I could go back to rogue on my DNF, I would.

[Cuddlezarro]

actually some one did the numbers and Cunning+Dex rogues are>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Str+Dex Rogues over at the gameplay forum Ill try dig it up if you wish

No way!  High dexterity means you don't get hit, period.

maybe its because I use difficulty boosting mods *and* play on nightmare but thats simply not true in my experiance

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 23 mars 2010 - 10:40 .

[ejoslin]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

actually some one did the numbers and Cunning+Dex rogues are>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Str+Dex Rogues over at the gameplay forum Ill try dig it up if you wish

  
Ah good, so I'm NOT crazy.  A cunning build works REALLY well for me.  

Edit: I've not found a str build that works for me.  20 str WITH gear is the best way to go.  I usually am a bit too high.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 mars 2010 - 10:43 .

[SurrealSadi]

Only reason cunning+dex rogues are evil is Lethality. If you get just enough Dex to get the really useful DW rogue skills, 20 Str for good armor(leather, of course), then just dump every point into Cunning, it's pure evil.

[AndreaDraco]

This was before Awakening though, since Accuracy changes everything

[Cuddlezarro]

ejoslin wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

actually some one did the numbers and Cunning+Dex rogues are>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Str+Dex Rogues over at the gameplay forum Ill try dig it up if you wish

  
Ah good, so I'm NOT crazy.  A cunning build works REALLY well for me.  

heres the topic

http://social.biowar.../index/223777/1

Long story short

Duel Dagger cunning rogues do the most DPS followed by Axe/Dagger and Sword+dagger cunning rogues

[Cuddlezarro]

AndreaDraco wrote...

This was before Awakening though, since Accuracy changes everything

that skill is insane

it turned Archers from a 2 skill wonder (scatter shot and arrow of cheese) to LOLOL I just destroyed your entire party faster than a gaggle of mages

[Cuddlezarro]

SurrealSadi wrote...

Only reason cunning+dex rogues are evil is Lethality. If you get just enough Dex to get the really useful DW rogue skills, 20 Str for good armor(leather, of course), then just dump every point into Cunning, it's pure evil.

Leathality AND the Rogues activated skill from Wardens keep that *also* adds damage based on the amount of Cun you have

plus Bard skills rely on Cunning as well

[MorGothic]

ejoslin wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

actually some one did the numbers and Cunning+Dex rogues are>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Str+Dex Rogues over at the gameplay forum Ill try dig it up if you wish

  
Ah good, so I'm NOT crazy.  A cunning build works REALLY well for me.  

Edit: I've not found a str build that works for me.  20 str WITH gear is the best way to go.  I usually am a bit too high.

Oh you most certainly are crazy, your just not wrong.  

Modifié par MorGothic, 23 mars 2010 - 10:46 .

[Addai]

SurrealSadi wrote...

Only reason cunning+dex rogues are evil is Lethality. If you get just enough Dex to get the really useful DW rogue skills, 20 Str for good armor(leather, of course), then just dump every point into Cunning, it's pure evil.

I'm not sure why this would be, though, since all Lethality does is substitute Cunning for Strength as a damage modifier?

[Nonvita]

Addai67 wrote...

We'll just have to disagree on this one!  Like I said, I've played DW warriors on multiple playthroughs, and if I could go back to rogue on my DNF, I would.

Well, I guess we will.

Modifié par Nonvita, 23 mars 2010 - 10:52 .

[Cuddlezarro]

Addai67 wrote...

SurrealSadi wrote...

Only reason cunning+dex rogues are evil is Lethality. If you get just enough Dex to get the really useful DW rogue skills, 20 Str for good armor(leather, of course), then just dump every point into Cunning, it's pure evil.

I'm not sure why this would be, though, since all Lethality does is substitute Cunning for Strength as a damage modifier?

Cunning adds to armor penetration

plus the bard song buffs (in this case song of courage since it boosts damage) also rely on cunning as well as the Wardens keep rogue skill that adds damage based on your cunning to (and it does stack with bardsong buffs and leathality)

[Addai]

Right, but I'm just talking purely on the basis of comparing damage str to cun, without considering other buffs. If you don't have a cunning build, you're probably not going to be taking Bard anyway. Agreed on armor penetration.

[Creature 1]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

SurrealSadi wrote...

Only reason cunning+dex rogues are evil is Lethality. If you get just enough Dex to get the really useful DW rogue skills, 20 Str for good armor(leather, of course), then just dump every point into Cunning, it's pure evil.

I'm not sure why this would be, though, since all Lethality does is substitute Cunning for Strength as a damage modifier?

Cunning adds to armor penetration

plus the bard song buffs (in this case song of courage since it boosts damage) also rely on cunning as well as the Wardens keep rogue skill that adds damage based on your cunning to (and it does stack with bardsong buffs and leathality)

Plus assassin's Exploit Weakness, bonus to backstab damage. 

[Cuddlezarro]

Addai67 wrote...

Right, but I'm just talking purely on the basis of comparing damage str to cun, without considering other buffs. If you don't have a cunning build, you're probably not going to be taking Bard anyway. Agreed on armor penetration.

the reason Cun roughs do so well though is because leathality makes it so it synergises with the rogue skillline its not just for the damage calculation switch

granted Rogues do get a Str based specialization now but thats expansion only till some one mods them into origins

[Nonvita]

Creature 1 wrote...

Plus assassin's Exploit Weakness, bonus to backstab damage. 

Yeah, if I recall, they assume you will take Assassin as your first specialization. Which, if you're doing DW, I don't see why you wouldn't...

[Charsen]

*eyes glazed over*

[Cuddlezarro]

Charsen wrote...

*eyes glazed over*

*take oppotunity to huggle charsen*

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 23 mars 2010 - 10:58 .

[Creature 1]

Charsen wrote...

*eyes glazed over*

One of my favorite NWN characters was a dual kukri rogue/shadowdancer/assassin built primarily for maximum criticals.  One disappointment of DA is that it doesn't allow for more discussion of mechanics! 

[Addai]

Oh no, we are boring Charsen. Quick, put up some naked Zevran pictures. LOL

[SurrealSadi]

Creature 1 wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

SurrealSadi wrote...

Only reason cunning+dex rogues are evil is Lethality. If you get just enough Dex to get the really useful DW rogue skills, 20 Str for good armor(leather, of course), then just dump every point into Cunning, it's pure evil.

I'm not sure why this would be, though, since all Lethality does is substitute Cunning for Strength as a damage modifier?

Cunning adds to armor penetration

plus the bard song buffs (in this case song of courage since it boosts damage) also rely on cunning as well as the Wardens keep rogue skill that adds damage based on your cunning to (and it does stack with bardsong buffs and leathality)

Plus assassin's Exploit Weakness, bonus to backstab damage. 

Yup. All my DW Rogues are Cunning-based dual daggers. They kill really well, and usually don't get hit unless its against a really nasty boss.