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[Creature 1]

ejoslin wrote...
But had the crow master reacted differently, would the whole thing have haunted him the way it did?  Or was it the loss of everything that he thought defined him which haunted him?

Good point.  If the Crow master hadn't screwed that up, he might have gone on without being terribly bothered, maybe feeling like he'd had an escape.  Must think about this! 

[ejoslin]

Creature 1 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
But had the crow master reacted differently, would the whole thing have haunted him the way it did?  Or was it the loss of everything that he thought defined him which haunted him?

Good point.  If the Crow master hadn't screwed that up, he might have gone on without being terribly bothered, maybe feeling like he'd had an escape.  Must think about this! 

He was bothered, enough to want to tell the crows what they had done.  But I think he would have gone on had the master punished him in some way instead of just letting him know the whole thing didn't even matter.  But I don't think what he felt for Taliesen was trivial in any way.  In that conversation, it's pretty obvious that Zevran actually did care  for Taliesen and was upset that he had been killed.  He didn't blame the PC, he blamed Taliesen for it, but it's another one of those moments where you can just hear the pain breaking through -- he's not even trying to hide it.

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...
However he felt about Rinna, he had no desire to protect her and he did not trust her -- of course, it was because he did not want to.  He was very quick to side with Taliesen over her and let him kill her, he even spit on her.  You know she loved him, and he may have thought he loved her, or maybe he did actually love her and was trying to be cold.  But had the crow master reacted differently, would the whole thing have haunted him the way it did?  Or was it the loss of everything that he thought defined him which haunted him? 

I just think what brought him to the breaking point was far more than Rinna.  

I can agree that what really broke him was not just having killed Rinna, but realizing that no one but him even cared.  However, I'm also going from the fact that he tells you that Rinna touched him in a way that no one else ever had, that his feelings for her scared him etc.  The fact that he killed her and spit on her is consistent to my mind.  Did he spit on other "marks"?  No, he felt her betrayal (what he thought was her betrayal) more keenly because of his beginnings of passion for her.

Modifié par Addai67, 22 janvier 2010 - 11:12 .

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...


I can agree that what really broke him was not just having killed Rinna, but realizing that no one but him even cared.  However, I'm also going from the fact that he tells you that Rinna touched him in a way that no one else ever had, that his feelings for her scared him etc.  The fact that he killed her and spit on her is consistent to my mind.  Did he spit on other "marks"?  No, he felt her betrayal (what he thought was her betrayal) more keenly because of his beginnings of passion for her.

There is no doubt that he regrets what he did, and that his regrets were based on his feelings for her. He doesn't deny that he fell in love with her, but he does not confirm it either; he just accepts he had feelings for her and did not want to and was ready to kill her to keep that part of his cold.  And his feelings for Rinna I don't think were the same as his feelings for the PC whom he definitely falls in love with -- he ends up so confused by how he feels for her, whereas with Rinna he made sure he was completely guarded.  I'm not sure I'm wording this well.  

But his feelings for Taliesen cannot just be brushed aside either.  He obviously does not think Taliesen lied to get Rinna out of the way.  For someone who is not supposed to be caring about anyone, he certainly bleeds all over the place.  Realizing that he actually cared for and continued to trust Taliesen puts a different light on a few things for me.  

Just when you think a story can't get any more complex!

Edit: I need to quit analyzing this and just enjoy it I think!

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 janvier 2010 - 11:44 .

[Sabriana]

See, that's what I'm trying to say. The Zevran/Taliesan relationship can't be brushed aside as just being a non romantic, no complex feelings and emotions relationship. There's more than simple friend/sex-partner behind it, and talking to Ingnacio reveals a lot.

Unless Zevran outright lies to my PC, he never had a true friend until he met her. And furthermore, it was drilled into him that deep feelings are 'reckless'.

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

See, that's what I'm trying to say. The Zevran/Taliesan relationship can't be brushed aside as just being a non romantic, no complex feelings and emotions relationship. There's more than simple friend/sex-partner behind it, and talking to Ingnacio reveals a lot.
Unless Zevran outright lies to my PC, he never had a true friend until he met her. And furthermore, it was drilled into him that deep feelings are 'reckless'.

I did talk to Ignacio, and I did interpret what he said differently than you did (*grin* I love the posturing they both do).  I still think the crows put a contract out on Zevran as he said they would, and Taliesen volunteered for it.  HOWEVER . . . The feelings for Taliesen are definitely complex, and strong.  But everyone seems to use everyone in his world.  Once someone no longer has a use, you kill them.  Rinna's death started him questioning everything he believed, and the crow master telling him they just don't matter at all furthered that.

I agree with you that the PC was the first person who ever was a friend to him.  He obviously values that just as highly or even more as as anything else he may feel.  Gah, you make so many good points.

[Creature 1]

Sabriana wrote...
See, that's what I'm trying to say. The Zevran/Taliesan relationship can't be brushed aside as just being a non romantic, no complex feelings and emotions relationship. There's more than simple friend/sex-partner behind it, and talking to Ingnacio reveals a lot.

I don't think I'm brushing it aside.  "Not in love" covers a lot of territory. 

[jenovan]

Hmm, I think we all can agree Zevran's relationships are complicated! XD

Taliesen -- As Creature said, "not in love" is a lot of things. If Taliesen was Zevran's mentor/senior/something, Zevran might have felt some admiration, adoration, some such thing. That sort of thing could lead to a sexual relationship, but not necessarily a romantic one. As for Zev telling the PC he's never had a friend before, I'm guessing he means a friend with no expectations, no conditions. He may have liked Taliesen quite a lot, but I imagine he knew Taliesen wouldn't hesitate (much) if he suspected Zevran had betrayed the Crows, or some such. Like ejoslin said, their world was very different than what Zevran came to know with the PC.

Rinna -- she might have been, I think, Zev's first experience with romantic, non-conditional feelings, and i imagine that freaked him out. Did she love him and *not* want something from him? Not want to use him? What could that mean? And so on... I don't know, I could see him being in love (or at least deeply infatuated -- he says, "everything I thought I wanted"...) with her, but feeling betrayed by her supposed treachery....

But I agree that the fact that the Crow masters' uncaring about Rinna's death was probably the real kicker for Zevran.  If they'd punished him, he would have the satisfaction that some justice was done for her... but to know that none of them mattered... brr.

Hmm, I'm not wording this well... I'll stop here

Modifié par jenovan, 23 janvier 2010 - 01:20 .

[Sabriana]

Creature, I never targeted you with my remarks. I value your input, and I agree with you. 'Not in Love' does indeed cover a lot of territory, but the 'friend' territory is something different. Zevran tells my PC that "her saying he's a friend comes so easy to her, but that he never had a friend before."



I think there is much more than the casual 'let's have sex, cause all the chessboards are taken" interpersonal happenings going on between Taliesan and Zevran. Perhaps what Duncan is to Alistair, Taliesen is to Zevran. I don't know, but I just can't put the 'casual' spin on their relationship, simply because it seems to be so much more compex than a casual sexual thing.



It's unfortunate that the character writers do make a point of sticking their noses into the "Alistair" threads, but we are left to hack everything out by ourselves as far as Zevran is concerned.

[Creature 1]

Sabriana wrote...
Creature, I never targeted you with my remarks. I value your input, and I agree with you. 'Not in Love' does indeed cover a lot of territory, but the 'friend' territory is something different. Zevran tells my PC that "her saying he's a friend comes so easy to her, but that he never had a friend before."

Goodness knows what's going on in his head, because he calls Taliesin "old friend" and tells the PC he was a friend.  It would be nice if he would write an essay on what "friend" means in its various appearances.  

I think there is much more than the casual 'let's have sex, cause all the chessboards are taken" interpersonal happenings going on between Taliesan and Zevran.

  That's a great line!

It's unfortunate that the character writers do make a point of sticking their noses into the "Alistair" threads, but we are left to hack everything out by ourselves as far as Zevran is concerned.

It's not as if Alistair isn't easy to figure out either. 

[ejoslin]

Sabriana, I think part of the deal is women approach sex far differently than men do, and you're taking more of a woman's point of view when it comes to sex. Men seem to have no problems with a FWB situation, but most women, despite what they say, end up falling in love or at least having deeper feelings. Men (speaking in generalities here, of course there are exceptions) can handle keeping the physical part separate from the emotional part.

With Zevran, it's not until he falls in love with the PC that the sex takes on real meaning -- when the physical and the emotional act actually become related. When I say that, I still think that Zevran had strong feelings for the PC from the beginning and was falling in love with her from the start (as evidenced by how he handles breakups despite what he says), but have sex with him, don't have sex with him, it makes no difference in his interactions with the PC other than he approves each time. There are a few minor dialog changes if you don't have sex with him (when forcing you to choose, he refers to what you two have going on as a "flirtation"), but for the most part, his feelings towards the PC grow and change despite the physical relationship, not as an expression of it. Until, of course, he falls in love.

I'm actually a bit glad that the writers stay out of the Zevran threads. We all see him so differently, and put ourselves into it. With Alistair, it's all out there -- not too much to interpret there. Well, you have the analyzing of "Anything you need, my dear," but that's about it. I like having that bit of myself in there.

Edit: jenovan, don't stop there!  *grin*  

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 janvier 2010 - 01:36 .

[Creature 1]

Another question: What happened to the boys from the ****house that didn't get sold to the Crows? And considering I assume a pretty high attrition rate for Crow recruits, how could it be much worse?

[jenovan]

Sorry, ejoslin, I ran out of steam! XD;; Also, there was pizza.

*grins* Sabriana, that chessboard line is a keeper. I actually started a mage character today, and they have all those chessboards in the dorms... I'll never look at them the same way again. XD

Creature 1 wrote...

Another question: What happened to the boys from the ****house that didn't get sold to the Crows? And considering I assume a pretty high attrition rate for Crow recruits, how could it be much worse?

At first, I was under the impression that the ****house sold Zevran (and whoever else) directly to the Crows, but I've seen somewhere else that Zev does say he was bought "on the slave market"... otherwise I would have said, maybe some of them don't leave the ****house... :|

And, well, maybe others get purchased for manual labor and some such. We know that a Crow can live a comfy little life in their cage -- being sold to the Crows is a chance for a better life, from the perspective of a run-of-the-mill slave, I suppose.

Modifié par jenovan, 23 janvier 2010 - 02:31 .

[ejoslin]

jenovan wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

Another question: What happened to the boys from the ****house that didn't get sold to the Crows? And considering I assume a pretty high attrition rate for Crow recruits, how could it be much worse?

At first, I was under the impression that the ****house sold Zevran (and whoever else) directly to the Crows, but I've seen somewhere else that Zev does say he was bought "on the slave market"... otherwise I would have said, maybe some of them don't leave the ****house... :|

And, well, maybe others get purchased for manual labor and some such. We know that a Crow can live a comfy little life in their cage -- being sold to the Crows is a chance for a better life, from the perspective of a run-of-the-mill slave, I suppose.

That is extremely depressing but . . . yes, even in Ferelden, where the elves are not slaves, they are treated horribly.  

[seramiran]

There is no way to repay the joy I felt in reading the marvelous Mary Sue interpretation of game arc written by Creature 1.

Thank You.

Modifié par seramiran, 23 janvier 2010 - 05:58 .

[Creature 1]

seramiran wrote...

There is no way to repay the joy I felt in reading the marvelous Mary Sue interpretation of game arc written by Creature 1.

Thank You.

You're welcome! 

I was thinking it reminds me of what Oghren says if you ask him for a description of these Gray Wardens.  I'm going to have to find a save game and ask him what a Gray Warden looks like if no one has that dialogue transcribed yet!  

[seramiran]

Namirsolo wrote...

I just got back from a vacation (and couldn't play the game the entire time!) and was able to play DA for the first time in 10 days last night. I just love Zevran's voice.

This is slightly off-topic, but if anyone is curious about what Zevran's voice actor looks like he's in the avatar trailer and the very first scene of the movie. He must be a very good voice actor because I didn't even recognize his voice. haha

Check out his site and the voice clips: http://www.joncurry.com/

Think he qualifies as a master voice actor?

[Addai]

seramiran wrote...

There is no way to repay the joy I felt in reading the marvelous Mary Sue interpretation of game arc written by Creature 1.

Thank You.

Are you trying to be insulting and/or ironic, or did I miss something?

[Creature 1]

Addai67 wrote...

seramiran wrote...

There is no way to repay the joy I felt in reading the marvelous Mary Sue interpretation of game arc written by Creature 1.

Thank You.

Are you trying to be insulting and/or ironic, or did I miss something?

Found it!  Page 15:

Creature 1 wrote...

If we are talking Mary Sue, that would be the female PC, she would have to be beautiful, with lovely clothes, beloved by everyone, everyone acquiescing to her whims as she possesses the power to convince the sternest mind, and without flaw except for an adorable trait such as clumsiness (I'm looking at you, Bella) or fear of public speaking. And she would have eyes like limpid pools, or azure as the sea, or like violets in spring, or maybe one emerald and one topaz. Her hair would be long, raven black, or red as flame, or perhaps like purest gold. Her hero would adore her and move mountains to be with her. If she were in danger or perhaps captured by her archnemesis he would suffer searing soul pain™ and risk life and limb to save her. Her love could turn the coldest man into a paladin, and through healing sex™ all of his hurts would be soothed.

If Alistair were a Marty-Stu he would be born to lead, with an air of quiet authority, broad shoulders, and rippling abs. He would serve his Mary Sue as her champion, and step aside only to her authority. He would seek the throne if she would only sit beside him, although being willing to give up all if she does not want to be queen, and would rewrite the laws of the land to allow her to rule. If she were ever to betray him, he would go mad with rage and sorrow and seek self-destruction by flinging himself into battle against the darkspawn, taking down hundreds single-handed before their combined blows fell him on the bloodstained field.

If Zevran were a Marty-Stu he would be Jander Sunstar and at least six inches taller. He would be tormented by his past sins, seeking redemption, and finding it in the form of the Mary Sue. He would weep at the lives he had taken, and his emotional torment would be assuaged by her love. Physically scarred, he would bear scars upon his soul as well, and his past crimes and sufferings would prey upon his mind. He would be unable to sleep at night, until one night when the Mary Sue comes to him and through healing sex™ makes him whole. From that time he will become her champion, protecting the innocent and fighting for Good until the day when he is cut down in battle, bidding his farewell to the Mary Sue as she cradles his head in her lap, and bends weeping over his body. He will be carried from the field and buried in a tomb that will stand as a memorial to the power of love, and roses will grow upon it in the dead of winter.

Now I have to go shoot myself.

Modifié par Creature 1, 23 janvier 2010 - 08:57 .

[Sabriana]

Rofl once again@ Creature. But please, don't shoot yourself. I love reading your posts.



Not that I'm selfish or anything. I mean, really, I' m not.

[seramiran]

ejoslin wrote...



Ugh, it's obvious (though I can't take the credit here). "I would do anything for love" by Meatloaf.



Ok, I need to go shoot myself now!

You made me pull up the player and now I'm cycling that song!!

[seramiran]

Addai67 wrote...

seramiran wrote...

There is no way to repay the joy I felt in reading the marvelous Mary Sue interpretation of game arc written by Creature 1.

Thank You.

Are you trying to be insulting and/or ironic, or did I miss something?

I think it was a beautifully written post that perfectly captures the Mary Sue approach to fan fic. Clever, witty and so very well written that I'm in awe. Especially as it was done without being mean. Really a deft touch there. *ahem* I do tend to gush about writing that I enjoy.

Sooooo, I was being up front.

edit: formatting ...

Modifié par seramiran, 23 janvier 2010 - 10:11 .

[errant_knight]

Creature 1 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

seramiran wrote...

There is no way to repay the joy I felt in reading the marvelous Mary Sue interpretation of game arc written by Creature 1.

Thank You.

Are you trying to be insulting and/or ironic, or did I miss something?

Found it!  Page 15:

Creature 1 wrote...

If we are talking Mary Sue, that would be the female PC, she would have to be beautiful, with lovely clothes, beloved by everyone, everyone acquiescing to her whims as she possesses the power to convince the sternest mind, and without flaw except for an adorable trait such as clumsiness (I'm looking at you, Bella) or fear of public speaking. And she would have eyes like limpid pools, or azure as the sea, or like violets in spring, or maybe one emerald and one topaz. Her hair would be long, raven black, or red as flame, or perhaps like purest gold. Her hero would adore her and move mountains to be with her. If she were in danger or perhaps captured by her archnemesis he would suffer searing soul pain™ and risk life and limb to save her. Her love could turn the coldest man into a paladin, and through healing sex™ all of his hurts would be soothed.

If Alistair were a Marty-Stu he would be born to lead, with an air of quiet authority, broad shoulders, and rippling abs. He would serve his Mary Sue as her champion, and step aside only to her authority. He would seek the throne if she would only sit beside him, although being willing to give up all if she does not want to be queen, and would rewrite the laws of the land to allow her to rule. If she were ever to betray him, he would go mad with rage and sorrow and seek self-destruction by flinging himself into battle against the darkspawn, taking down hundreds single-handed before their combined blows fell him on the bloodstained field.

If Zevran were a Marty-Stu he would be Jander Sunstar and at least six inches taller. He would be tormented by his past sins, seeking redemption, and finding it in the form of the Mary Sue. He would weep at the lives he had taken, and his emotional torment would be assuaged by her love. Physically scarred, he would bear scars upon his soul as well, and his past crimes and sufferings would prey upon his mind. He would be unable to sleep at night, until one night when the Mary Sue comes to him and through healing sex™ makes him whole. From that time he will become her champion, protecting the innocent and fighting for Good until the day when he is cut down in battle, bidding his farewell to the Mary Sue as she cradles his head in her lap, and bends weeping over his body. He will be carried from the field and buried in a tomb that will stand as a memorial to the power of love, and roses will grow upon it in the dead of winter.

Now I have to go shoot myself.

I missed this, too! ROTFL!
Oh, how I hate Mary/Marty Sues. That's why I like these characters. They have flaws and humanity without being so flawed that you can't identify with them (I'm looking at you, Stargate: Universe). Bravo, Creature 1!

[Addai]

seramiran wrote...

I think it was a beautifully written post that perfectly captures the Mary Sue approach to fan fic. Clever, witty and so very well written that I'm in awe. Especially as it was done without being mean. Really a deft touch there. *ahem* I do tend to gush about writing that I enjoy.

Sooooo, I was being up front.

Ohh!!  I thought you were accusing her of being a Mary Sue.  Sorry.  Carry on...

Edit:  And that was, indeed, a beautiful essay on the phenomenon!

Modifié par Addai67, 23 janvier 2010 - 11:32 .

[LyonVanguard]

Frankly, I hate the character.
I always choose to kill him :innocent: