35177 réponses à ce sujet

[caldur06]

Namirsolo wrote...

Interesting, because being flamboyant would actually make him a stereotype. And as far as him "apologizing" for coming onto you, that's a safeguard that the writers put it for homophobic people who might feel pigeon-holed into his relationship. I don't really think you can read anything into that. It's just a side effect of the society we live in.

Also, his tattoo is unique to him. So there goes your "nothing unique about him" complaint. The only thing unique about Alistair is his hair, and as far as I know there is nothing at all unique about Leliana.

Some of us do find him endearing. I see that you don't, but that doesn't mean that he's a stereotype. And Zevran is no more a "shameless sexual omnivore" than Leliana is. Also, how can be shameless if you just said you thought he was apologizing for finding your pc attractive?

yes, but it'd be a stereotype that is unusual and not nonthreatening. and my comment about his lack of uniqueness was more a lament about the ridiculous amount of time and effort put into Morrigan's unique appearance, even going so far as to regift you at the end of the game with upgraded states for the very same breast-baring robe she wore at the start. I think that Allister has a disappointing lack as well, but makes up for it with extensive storyline.

Leilanna is in the exact same boat as Zevran. Not a damn thing is unique about her, and she even (sadly) has less story. but, heh, the first words out of her mouth, upon meeting her with my male character, were also expressing how bi she is. something about "the pretty, innocent novices" of the abbey keeping her interest. Terribly unfortunate that the first two gay/bi characters you meet make sure to let you know of that fact before they even join your party. But that's neither here nor there, in this thread about Zevran.

Regardless, like you said first off. Zevran is tailored to suit a homophobic male audience, and he does this in pretty much every stereotypical way a gay/bi male character has before. My mention of stereotypes is not so much that he's stereotypically gay, but stereotypically gay for a video game character.

Modifié par caldur06, 28 janvier 2010 - 03:46 .

[Creature 1]

caldur06 wrote...
Regardless, like you said first off. Zevran is tailored to suit a homophobic male audience, and he does this in pretty much every stereotypical way a gay/bi male character has before. My mention of stereotypes is not so much that he's stereotypically gay, but stereotypically gay for a video game character.

Give it time.  Not to long ago even putting a same-sex romance option in at all would be unmarketable. 

[ejoslin]

Jayelet wrote...

Part of the expansion to end the Crows have it written, just need more data on Antivir and crows. It's just a question of time to mount the module and adventure.


Edit: I could tell that you mean Zevran search, after Taliasin I have not found any search ... If so I would like to know how to get there.

I'm not sure what you mean, Jayelet.  There is some amazing dialog after the Taliesen encounter as I'm sure you know, up to an (almost but implied) proposal; before that, a declaration of friendship before Zevran is able to sort out his feelings that you know no matter what happens, this man is there for you on all levels; a couple of declarations of love at the gate (depending on whether you have him in your party or not), that even though the word "love" is not used, leaves no doubt that this is your partner forever. 

As far as a search . . . no.  I'm sorry.  I think it must be the language barrier.

[Jayelet]

The post-meeting discussions with Taliasin I have explored fully, so I missed what he said
highcastle
And Zev's personal quest was about the only one that really had a major impact on me. Maybe Because of the deal with the ring afterward or he can give the lines depending on your reaction to Talis. It was such a great surprise the first time I did it. No impact on the story? I do not think so.

I may not have misunderstood

Edit: I would love the story I wrote about Zevran, which I base the expansion will do. If you want you can translate a web translator.
zevran.crearblog.com/

Modifié par Jayelet, 28 janvier 2010 - 04:16 .

[David Gaider]

caldur06 wrote...
I was extremely unimpressed with him overall. he had no unique storyline, no effect on the plot, no unique model, armor, or even hair. everything about him felt carefully tailored to be utterly forgettable and completely nonthreatening to the straight guys playing (even down to Zevran trumpeting his sexuality for the world to see), because he confroms to every preconcieved notion available of what a gay/bi guy should be. I don't necessarily hate him because he's too sleazy, immature, or flamboyant. I hate him because of everything that he represents.

Hmm.

Well, I guess everyone's entitled to their opinion.

Zevran certainly wasn't "chosen" to be bisexual, he was created that way from the outset. He's also not meant to represent all gay or bisexual people... he was just a fun, flirty character that I thought might be interesting to try, and that some people might appreciate as something a little different. If you were looking for a political statement, or choose to look on the inclusion of a bisexual romance that's not to your taste as an insult, I guess that's up to you.

[Namirsolo]

I guess my main problem with calling Zevran a stereotype is that he is a well-written and fleshed-out character. Those facts and stereotype just don't go together. To me, a stereotype is a characer that exists solely  as a way to play off of whatever someone may already believe about a certain demographic. Zevran has an interesting background and thoughts and feelings that apparently make him likeable to many people who are posting in this thread.

Yes, he is bisexual and happens to like sex. Does that make him a stereotype? I don't really think so. There are plenty of straight and gay people who have the same quirk.

And, I didn't say that Zevran is "tailored" to homophobic players. I said he has certain safeguards in his dialogue so as not to offend certain people. I still think the inclusion of a homosexual romance option that is also a really great character is a huge step forward.

[Rhinna]

ejoslin wrote...

Ohoh, I can only hope.  I would be ok with the romance being acknowledged in a serious way, and not ended.  I would be delighted if I could continue the adventure with him, especially since he does in every single ending I see (hahahaha) become a recruiter/trainer for the Grey Wardens.  I think he'd be great at that.  Just as amoral as Duncan!

LOL Duncan was quite a handful as a young man!  I was so surprised to read about how he became a Grey Warden, and his "younger" days...QUITE a difference from when the PC met him!!

[Nonvita]

caldur06 wrote...

no, I played through his storyline. I know everything about him. doesn't make me like him any more- in fact, it makes me like him less. especially the way he expresses his interest in you (as a guy) and then immediately apologizes and "hopes that you don't mind." I mean, if he were confidant and secure in himself, like he's apparently supposed to be, then his attraction to men shouldn't matter at all, but it never rang to me as anything deeper. it just sounded like he's apologizing for his sexuality, and that's about the only thing I never, ever want hear a game tell me.

I'd have even been happier if he were outright, flamboyantly gay (sequins and feather boa optional). at least then it'd be like "woah, not something you see every day." as it is, though, he's just one of another lackluster character who was chosen to be bi because he's a) slight of build,  a shameless sexual omnivore, and c) not human. 

I have yet to see a game that has a "cute, shy" character like Allister, or "strong, silent" character like Sten, be gay/bi. Zevran was lying on the ground, trying to get me to spare him and "oh, by the way Caldur, he's gaaaaaaaay!" seriously, he just puts it out there that he thinks I'm handsome. hardly through the very first conversation I have with him, bam. just announces that he's gay. bi. whatever.

I was extremely unimpressed with him overall. he had no unique storyline, no effect on the plot, no unique model, armor, or even hair. everything about him felt carefully tailored to be utterly forgettable and completely nonthreatening to the straight guys playing (even down to Zevran trumpeting his sexuality for the world to see), because he confroms to every preconcieved notion available of what a gay/bi guy should be. I don't necessarily hate him because he's too sleazy, immature, or flamboyant. I hate him because of everything that he represents.

I guess I don't understand what you want from him. You say he's too much of a gay stereotype, but then say you'd rather he be more of a stereotype. Like I said, it's fine if you don't like him. If you even got through the entire romance and don't like him, that's fine. But he is who he is, and I think David and the other writers did a great job at making a character who has genuine feelings and reasons why he acts like he does. I don't see him as "representing" anything.

Personally, I felt completely comfortable pursuing a straight romance with him as a female, and others have said they enjoyed the male/male romance as well. Not everyone, but then the game can't cater to what everyone wants. And I can't help but think, if Alistair had been the bisexual romance, how many people would have complained that he's so steretypical because he's so sensitive and girly...

[angj57]

I've never included him in my party for one reason: I can't roleplay the game in good faith and let someone who just tried to assassinate me get up and join my party. I mean sure, I know from outside the game that he isn't going to kill me in my sleep, but there is no way for an in game character to know that after a few lines of conversation. It's one thing to show the guy mercy and let him live, but to let him come join you really doesn't make any sense. Allistair's reaction pretty much sums it up: "wait, we're letting the assassin come with us now?"

[caldur06]

David Gaider wrote...

Hmm.

Well, I guess everyone's entitled to their opinion.

Zevran certainly wasn't "chosen" to be bisexual, he was created that way from the outset. He's also not meant to represent all gay or bisexual people... he was just a fun, flirty character that I thought might be interesting to try, and that some people might appreciate as something a little different. If you were looking for a political statement, or choose to look on the inclusion of a bisexual romance that's not to your taste as an insult, I guess that's up to you.

Oh wow. I didn't expect the writers to really be glancing this deep in a thread. If I offended, I'm sorry, reading back I realize my tone was pretty harsh, and I truly do wish I'd started out more even-toned. Anyways, I know that any insult was definitely not intentional, and that you (of all people) don't have one specific stereotype of glbt people (yeah, I bought the book!). I don't want a political statement and I'm not looking for a fight where there's none to be had! It's just that the, well, for want of a better term, Depraved Bisexual (and I swear I didn't even know Zevran's name was on there till I glanced at it just now) is a terribly common trope, and one that annoys me pretty much because it is so commonplace.

Namirsolo wrote...

And, I didn't say that Zevran is "tailored" to homophobic players. I said he has certain safeguards in his dialogue so as not to offend certain people. I still think the inclusion of a homosexual romance option that is also a really great character is a huge step forward.

Yes, I apologize, I did put words in your mouth there. It's just that between the most typical role bisexual guys are cast in, and the inherent safeguards built into Zevran's conversations- turning what's supposed to be unabashed flirting into an apology- I was left a little sore about the Zevran romance.

Also, the epilogue telling me that Zevran followed his Grey Warden wherever she went (my character was male) just made me frown, and wonder who his new lady friend was.

[Namirsolo]

Also, the epilogue telling me that Zevran followed his Grey Warden
wherever she went (my character was male) just made me frown, and
wonder who his new lady friend was.

That's just a bug. There's a bunch with the epilogue titles already.

I just ran into one last night where Zevran referred to my PC as male (she's not)- well, he used the dialogue option that is supposed to be for a male pc. "We all have our reasons for doing what we do- mine just happen to come with a set of strong arms". For a female pc, he's supposed to say "lovely eyes" instead. Oh well.

This whole business of labeling things "tropes" and "stereotypes" bugs me because if a writer is overly concerned with not touching them things can get messy. There are so many of these "tropes" that's' it's nearly impossible to not touch on one of them during the course of writing a story. Trying to avoid them could make a story stilted and unoriginal.

What I want to say is this- plenty of real people have personal quirks and do things which others would consider "stereotypical behavior" for them. Zevran is not limited to a stereotype. He is a former assasin who regrets having an active part in killing his past love. He is pragmatic. He is loyal and supportive of the pc if treated well. He does not wear his heart on his sleeve and uses humor and his sexuality to deflect scrunity from the other party members. He does not exist soley as a the "token gay character" who has nothing more to him than his sexuality. He is a whole lot more than that one little personality trait.

Yes, there is a stereotype out there that bisexual people are prosmiscuous. Yes, Zevran has been promiscuous in his past (which was pretty much a vital part of his survival, as I have said before) but once he is in a relationship he is not anymore. Therefore, he does not fit into your stereotype you are trying to squeeze him into. I would take this further and say that Zevran was promiscuous in his past because that's how Zevran is, not because he's somehow supposed to represent every single bisexual person ever.

Modifié par Namirsolo, 28 janvier 2010 - 08:10 .

[Sabriana]

Zevran shouldn't have been made the flamboyant gay man, simply because he isn't gay. He's bisexual, meaning he can fall in love with either woman or man.

His comments early on all come off as deflections, trying to keep people (and himself) away from his deeper feelings. Think about it. A 7-year old child being sold to a brutal band of assassins, and bred to be a cold killer. Try the "That's a bit cold" line, and you'll see what I mean.

My girls are all very happy with Zevran as a straight romance. All that supposed 'flirting' with the party members is not really him trying too bed them. He goes after Wynne with a vengeance because she comes off very preachy, plus, she has nothing good to say about him to the PC in the beginning. She even tries to make my PC break it off with Zevran, which she always refuses to do. Zevran can't be very happy with that, especially because his feelings for the PC are taking on a life of their own by that point. She means more to him than he ever thought possible, and Wynne's interference is not only hurtful, but very mean. She's not that nasty about Alistair, btw.

Morrigan is a bet. Leliana sounds like banter. I have a feeling that Leliana wouldn't mind having a fling with Zevran, but he's not taking it very seriously. Would he act on it? Yeah, but only if the PC wanted him to. And my PCs are very selfish girls, all of them. They want him for themselves, and if another woman lays a hand on him, they'll cut it off.

My Amazon finally bedded him, and used the "what about love" line without losing approval. Yay, he's still in love with her. I know it's a glitch most likely, but that's one glitch I like a lot. This play-through is the funnest ever. I'm hearing Zevran blurbs and lines that I never heard befofre in my other play-throughs. He thought what? That Wonders of Thedas was a ****-house? Major Rofl.

I also never had him pipe up to the Sophia demon before, calling the GWs cunning and ruthless. Plus, after clearing and leaving WK, my PC finally had the 'Superman' encounter trigger for the very first time. I'm loving that sword, perfect for my warrior woman.

As for S&M, I don't believe he'd enjoy that much. He'd do it for her, but I believe that there is a point that he wouldn't cross. too many bad memories, I would think. It is a huge shadow of the past. His words in the Fade about torture being a "bad memory" and a "bad dream" seems far to honest.

[brgillespie]

Nonvita wrote...
Not everyone, but then the game can't cater to what everyone wants. And I can't help but think, if Alistair had been the bisexual romance, how many people would have complained that he's so steretypical because he's so sensitive and girly...

LOL, too true.

[ejoslin]

@caldur06 perhaps you should see what the romance looks like from the female side. There has been at least one gay man here who expressed some concerns, but when he tried the female romance, saw that things he thought were slights were actually, well, just part of the romance. Like when Zevran first meets the PC, he calls her a "utterly gorgeous" and says there are worse things than "serving the whims of a deadly sex goddess." Also, some of the dialogs are surprisingly the same whether addressing a male or female, but can come off quite a bit differently, perhaps in very unintended ways.

Zevran is not so much, as you put it, a "sexual omnivore" as he is someone who has been taught to use sex as a tool. And he always is very cautious and very respectful when approaching the PC, always asking permission before moving to the next level.  But once he falls in love with the PC, and most likely before, he is completely faithful (unless, of course, invited to not be).  

Modifié par ejoslin, 28 janvier 2010 - 12:24 .

[Jayelet]

Totally agree with Sabrina, my characters (my children) Zevran worship, even those who have not followed the affair with.

Most of them are elves not cost them anything imagined by what has happened and much less acceptable in the group. Alistair did not know, but 99% of the time their romance is broken at that point and by that phrase. Ironies of life.

But one of my characters would say ... I've been saving since ostage humans and humans give a (****), how am not going to save a member of my people?



If tomorrow Zevran out a book on correria to buy, is a character that I love and I'd love to know much more about him.

[Addai]

caldur06 wrote...

There's zero romantic appeal. Zilch.

I found everything about him incredibly insulting. Everything about him was every single stereotype you could thrust onto a gay/bi character. He's an elf. He's sleazy, overly aggressive, sexual about every single thing in the world and can hardly hold is tongue about it for even have a second. He had only to open his mouth once, and when his purse fell out, my heart sank like a rock. I didn't expect a lot from an m/m romance in this game, but I didn't want to be slapped across the face with the most flamboyant character in the game. At least those two gay blacksmiths had the ability to leave you slightly uncertain about their relationship. I'm surprised Zevran didn't have a limp wrist and a lisp. 

I can see you've already gotten a lot of commentary on your post, but did you ever think that such a character could actually challenge such stereotypes if the player holds them?

Besides which I think you have misread Zevran completely.  My character (human noble female) just had the conversation with him about him having been with many women before, which then leads to a discussion of the fact that he has not only slept with women.  The part that stands out in memory is this, paraphrased:

Zevran:  A certain openness is required in the Crows.  Do I prefer women?  Yes, I think I do.  I cannot change the past, however.  Does this bother you?
PC: You are not with the Crows any longer.
Zevran:  I am on a new road now.  It will be interesting to see where it leads.

Does this sound like a stereotypical flamboyant gay man to you?  I admit to having little experience with the latter, but it certainly did not strike me as such.  He is a person who certainly is physical and sensual, and who has learned to use charm as part of survival, is fun-loving, and who has never been in a relationship where sex is connected to love.  None of these things add up to stereotypes in my book.

Edit:  Reading through your other posts, I'm going to hazard a guess it also offends you that Zevran expresses a preference for women and asks the female PC if it bothers her that he's been with men.  In fact, it sounds to me like what you are saying is that you actually DO want a stereotype.  Not a real (pixel-) person who happens to not fit your picture of the ideal gay man.  I feel the same way when I encounter threads talking about how wimpy Alistair is, as though people would actually be happier if he were a Hollywood muscle-busting hero rather than a more complex character.

Modifié par Addai67, 28 janvier 2010 - 05:13 .

[Cuddlezarro]

Leliana sounds like banter. I have a feeling that Leliana wouldn't mind having a fling with Zevran, but he's not taking it very seriously. Would he act on it? Yeah, but only if the PC wanted him to.

if you play your cards right you can get Leliena to accept Zevrans proposal and if hes in a romance with you he turns it down

[David Gaider]

caldur06 wrote...
Oh wow. I didn't expect the writers to really be glancing this deep in a thread. If I offended, I'm sorry, reading back I realize my tone was pretty harsh, and I truly do wish I'd started out more even-toned. Anyways, I know that any insult was definitely not intentional, and that you (of all people) don't have one specific stereotype of glbt people (yeah, I bought the book!). I don't want a political statement and I'm not looking for a fight where there's none to be had! It's just that the, well, for want of a better term, Depraved Bisexual (and I swear I didn't even know Zevran's name was on there till I glanced at it just now) is a terribly common trope, and one that annoys me pretty much because it is so commonplace.

I'm not sure I agree with the term "depraved", but either way I'm not so certain it's commonplace. While that site calls them tropes the fact of the matter is there is a giant list of them -- so many, in fact, that you couldn't help but assign a great many of them to just about every creative work produced. Those are just simple categories.

If one wants to break down a character or a plot into generalizations so that they fit into a category, that's fine by me. You can do that for almost anything, however, and considering you'd need to simply disregard anything about that character or plot which doesn't match the category I'm not sure it's that helpful.

Zevran isn't a psychotic killer by any means, though he is an assassin. Part of the inspiration, if you must know, came from a report I read about some modern spy agencies preferring to recruit homosexuals as assassins because they typically do not form long-term relationships (which add complication to their existence). I wondered how this might make that person feel, and what would happen to someone that lived that way and suddenly found themselves falling in love -- something their entire existence tells them is a bad idea.

Is he thin? Sure. He's an elf, and they all have the same body. Is he bisexual because he's an elf? Not at all -- the choice to make him an elf came from his background... in some ways he's a victim of his circumstances, which are pretty bad for all elves, and instead of whining about it he's rolled with the punches. He's amoral, but I'm not sure that assassin-with-a-heart-of-gold would somehow be better in terms of breaking stereotypes. His sexuality is part of what he is, but it doesn't define him -- should it? A lot of what he is comes from him being an assassin. If we made every decision regarding his character about his sexuality alone, wouldn't that define the very essence of a stereotype?

I get being sensitive about the portrayal of the LGBT community -- boy, do I -- but suggesting that someone like Zevran must go completely against type or it's offensive is laying some pretty heavy expectations on him. Like I said, for my part I was just happy that we got to include some content for a very small audience -- something we don't normally get to do. I wanted to make him fun and flirty, and certainly didn't think that anything that made him appear less than butch or didn't go against type in every way might be construed as offensive. Considering the number of thankful emails I'm received from LGBT players who did enjoy him I don't really think I was so off the mark. 

Also, the epilogue telling me that Zevran followed his Grey Warden wherever she went (my character was male) just made me frown, and wonder who his new lady friend was.

That is an unfortunate bug in the ending (one of many, I understand) -- which I thought should be obvious, no? Unless the implication is that we would purposefully exclude a gay male player after an entire game of inclusion? Doesn't that strike you as a bit odd?

Modifié par David Gaider, 28 janvier 2010 - 05:53 .

[Axle Furret]

He is Antonio Banderas as a horny, gay, elf... Finally no more objectifying of only women in game relationships. I really like the option of a gay romance, even if Zev is a total stereotype, it is nice to have a change. And compared to the women in most games... You have to do a lot more than just give him shiny, expensive, objects. There is the whole, "Being Cautious About Coming Out" thing. In all honesty, he is the character I think has the most depth and emotional content in the game... Though I originally thought that Allistair would be a gay or Bi one as well.

[Sabriana]

Hey! Zevran isn't thin, he's wiry, okay?

My PC likes her men that way. Dairren wasn't ideal for her, but beggars can't be choosers, now, can they?

[Cuddlezarro]

Dairren looks funny to me... I dont know how to put it but his face just seems odd... but that doesnt stop my nobles from bedding him

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 28 janvier 2010 - 05:58 .

[Creature 1]

David Gaider wrote...
Zevran isn't a psychotic killer by any means, though he is an assassin. Part of the inspiration, if you must know, came from a report I read about some modern spy agencies preferring to recruit homosexuals as assassins because they typically do not form long-term relationships (which add complication to their existence). I wondered how this might make that person feel, and what would happen to someone that lived that way and suddenly found themselves falling in love -- something their entire existence tells them is a bad idea.

Nice to finally get one of the people responsible for writing Zevran commenting on him.  His backstory includes a lot of events that would have a great impact on his psychological development, but sometimes he seems too normal.  I figure part of that is because some of the worst experiences were >10 years ago, and also because anyone who couldn't make it through the Crow training in fairly decent psychological health just wouldn't survive it.  Did you do much reading on the psychological results of childhood abuse and PTSD when writing the character? 

[Sialater]

Only because Ser Gilmore isn't an option. *sigh*

[Jaulen]

David Gaider wrote...

He's an elf, and they all have the same body. Is he bisexual because he's an elf? Not at all -- the choice to make him an elf came from his background... in some ways he's a victim of his circumstances, which are pretty bad for all elves, and instead of whining about it he's rolled with the punches. He's amoral, but I'm not sure that assassin-with-a-heart-of-gold would somehow be better in terms of breaking stereotypes. His sexuality is part of what he is, but it doesn't define him -- should it? A lot of what he is comes from him being an assassin. If we made every decision regarding his character about his sexuality alone, wouldn't that define the very essence of a stereotype?

This and some other comments made above.....

Like how he jokes/relates to the other characters. Especially Wynne....she's such a nosy know-it-all, that how could he NOT want to tweak her nose by joking with her in a manner he knows would tick her off the most (I know I would and have IRL with people like her). Heck, every time I get the chance to, my PCs bug Wynne about the griffons......

He was sold and tortured...damaged goods...to me he's by far the character that pulls most of my sympathetic heart strings....how could you not want to just HUG him? 

Yeah, Alistair was a bastard and spent a lot of time sleeping in the stables, and was then sent to the chantry (a stray thought: wonder if this has anything to do with his background of mother being a mage?), but at least Alistair HAD people that cared about him and looked out for him, although in his spoiled childish rage he figured they didn't (so in character for Alistair to throw the amulet against the wall). I just can't feel a level of sympathy for Alistairs character I can for Zevran's.

But, Zevran really had nobody.....he was by himself, with the possiblility of a rather horrid death at every turn....even with his crow companions, he still ha dto watch his back. How would situations like that not cause someone to be somewhat of a false braggart, and a 'do whatever it takes to survive' type?

He's by far my most favorite character in the game....and not just as a romance option.
(please let him be in expansion/DLC)

[ejoslin]

Jaulen wrote...

He's by far my most favorite character in the game....and not just as a romance option.
(please let him be in expansion/DLC)

Agreed.  Though he is an extremely compelling romance option.  But if I ever play another game where he isn't one, he'll still be in my party always.  I can't help but compare him to the elves in Ostegar who are not slaves, but are so cowed.