35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

My problem with this character is that she's either going to be queen or sacrifice herself with Alistair as king- I just cannot put Anora on the throne for the life of me. Either way, I do not want her to be in love with Zevran. She couldn't cheat on Alistair since she does love him, and player selfishness will not let me sacrifice her knowing what happens to Zevran if she does. Oh, the corners I paint myself into.

As you know, you don't have to have Alistair in love to marry him, and if you ever did have him in love, you make him just as happy by marrying him, even at friendly.  He still is completely in love with his bride.  Alistair . ..  he's pretty easy to make happy if you're a HNF!

I just don't think my PC could do this.  If she marries Alistair, it will be partly political, but she couldn't cheat on him since she cares for him so much.  It is very confusing for her right now.  She had slept with other men, but Alistair is different and Zevran is different.  She would probably have slept with Zevran after the Crow missions for the reasons I stated, but not long before that she tried to seduce Alistair and he told her he was nervous because he cares for her and wanted it to be right.  She's never met a man who liked her enough not to sleep with her when given such a bald invitation.  (Of course, she would get to that point with Zevran eventually too!)  It is just like Zevran tells your PC when he makes you choose- even if he could live with some double-dipping on the PC's part, Alistair can't.  I can't really believe that Alistair would be happy with the PC keeping a lover, if he himself is in love with her- ending slide or no.

Modifié par Addai67, 28 janvier 2010 - 07:43 .

[errant_knight]

Namirsolo wrote...


[...] I would say that if we're comparing Alistair to Zevran than Alistair was spoiled as a child. He basically had a father until he was at least 10, and then that father sent him away (out of love) and Alistair cannot recognize that Arl Eamon did what he did because he cared about him. I guess you could take the more cynical road and say that Eamon only protected Alistair so that he could put his adopted son on the throne and control him. But, I prefer to blieve that he sent Alistair to the chantry to get him away from the bitter atmosphere that Isolde was creating.

That's not really looking at it from the child's point of view, it's an outside view looking in. How does one person's pain negate another's? And I'm thinking that our view of what constitutes spoiled differs so widely that it probably doesn't meet anywhere along the road.

[Sialater]

City elf had a father that loved her and a mother that taught her to take care of herself. Dwarf Commoner's mother is a drunk, but still present. (I haven't seen the dwarf commoner one, it may be the worst familial origin story.)



You don't know much about your own origin as a mage. Certainly there was little parental influence on the mage child, but there was certainly guidance and friendship.

[ejoslin]

Sialater wrote...

City elf had a father that loved her and a mother that taught her to take care of herself. Dwarf Commoner's mother is a drunk, but still present. (I haven't seen the dwarf commoner one, it may be the worst familial origin story.)

You don't know much about your own origin as a mage. Certainly there was little parental influence on the mage child, but there was certainly guidance and friendship.

City elf also lived with death as a very common part of her life, and oppression.  Her mother died when she was young.  She did have a supportive father and community, but with the way elves were basically treated compared to humans, no, her life was very VERY difficult.  As the lives of all elves.  If you speak to the elves in Ostegar, they're all worried about not doing their jobs quickly enough and getting beaten.  And these are elves in enviable positions.

Dwarf commoner mom is present and drunk and abusive.  Your life is just scrapping to get by.  You are treated as a **** or offered money for your teeth if you're lucky enough to have them still.  Your sister is trying her hardest to get pregnant so you don't have to become a prostitute.  

Mage, you never knew your family, apparently.  You are basically imprisoned the same way Alistair was.  

I'm not saying Alistair had a wonderful life.  But depending on the origin, the warden did not necessarily have it any better.  Human noble did for sure -- a very loving and supportive family.  Dwarf noble . . . it sounds like that is a dog-eat-dog world, and the wrong type of person would completely crack under that system as well.

Edit: hahaha, and to keep it about Zevran in a Zevran love thread, I will point out that this is another difference between Zevran and Alistair.  Zev actually comments on the PC having a difficult life and her inner strength and ability to keep going.  You never would hear him say that he had it much harder -- he compares their two circumstances.

Alistair, when giving the warden the rose, also acknowledges the difficulty the warden has gone through recently.  But he makes no comment on her basic character as Zevran does, nor acknowledges how difficult her life must have been in order to make her so strong.

Second edit: With Alistair, the warden has to be the strong one, always.  With Zevran, he can be the strong one for her, at least every once in awhile.  That actually may be my favorite part of his character.

Modifié par ejoslin, 28 janvier 2010 - 08:03 .

[Sialater]

ejoslin wrote...

Sialater wrote...

City elf had a father that loved her and a mother that taught her to take care of herself. Dwarf Commoner's mother is a drunk, but still present. (I haven't seen the dwarf commoner one, it may be the worst familial origin story.)

You don't know much about your own origin as a mage. Certainly there was little parental influence on the mage child, but there was certainly guidance and friendship.

City elf also lived with death as a very common part of her life, and oppression.  Her mother died when she was young.  She did have a supportive father and community, but with the way elves were basically treated compared to humans, no, her life was very VERY difficult.  As the lives of all elves.  If you speak to the elves in Ostegar, they're all worried about not doing their jobs quickly enough and getting beaten.  And these are elves in enviable positions.

Dwarf commoner mom is present and drunk and abusive.  Your life is just scrapping to get by.  You are treated as a **** or offered money for your teeth if you're lucky enough to have them still.  Your sister is trying her hardest to get pregnant so you don't have to become a prostitute.  

Mage, you never knew your family, apparently.  You are basically imprisoned the same way Alistair was.  

I'm not saying Alistair had a wonderful life.  But depending on the origin, the warden did not necessarily have it any better.  Human noble did for sure -- a very loving and supportive family.  Dwarf noble . . . it sounds like that is a dog-eat-dog world, and the wrong type of person would completely crack under that system as well.

Edit: hahaha, and to keep it about Zevran in a Zevran love thread, I will point out that this is another difference between Zevran and Alistair.  Zev actually comments on the PC having a difficult life and her inner strength and ability to keep going.  You never would hear him say that he had it much harder -- he compares their two circumstances.

Alistair, when giving the warden the rose, also acknowledges the difficulty the warden has gone through recently.  But he makes no comment on her basic character as Zevran does, nor acknowledges how difficult her life must have been in order to make her so strong.

Well, I actually wanted to correct Zevran as an HNF.  Other than her family being betrayed, she knows she had it easy prior to that.  And knew his life hadn't been anything she'd have wished on a Mabari.  But the dialogue option comes across as snobby, instead of sympathetic (not that Zevran would accept that).  I had to choose the agreeing with him option.

[Namirsolo]

errant_knight wrote...

Namirsolo wrote...


[...] I would say that if we're comparing Alistair to Zevran than Alistair was spoiled as a child. He basically had a father until he was at least 10, and then that father sent him away (out of love) and Alistair cannot recognize that Arl Eamon did what he did because he cared about him. I guess you could take the more cynical road and say that Eamon only protected Alistair so that he could put his adopted son on the throne and control him. But, I prefer to blieve that he sent Alistair to the chantry to get him away from the bitter atmosphere that Isolde was creating.

That's not really looking at it from the child's point of view, it's an outside view looking in. How does one person's pain negate another's? And I'm thinking that our view of what constitutes spoiled differs so widely that it probably doesn't meet anywhere along the road.

Yes, but Alistair is no longer a child. He could now look back at the situation and realize that it was different from how he perceived it as a child, but he doesn't. For instance, as a child I was angry at my parent's for certain things that they did, but now that I am adult I can judge them less harshly because the world is less black and white to me.

And I said that Alistair was spoiled compared to Zevran which I fail to see how someone could disagree with. Zevran never knew his mother or his father and was raised by prostitutes. Then he was sold into slavery where he was forced to endure torture, give up all attachments to his former life, and kill people unless he wanted to be killed himself.

Yes, the city elf had a loving father. However, her mother was murdered by humans (we're not really told the particulars of this, but it is implied that humans did kill her in one of the dialogue options) while she was pretty young. I also believe, given the reaction that the city elf and her cousin have to Duncan appearing in the alienage, that humans quite often went there and probably most often had ill-intentions. Let's also not forget that the elves are not allowed to leave the alienage at all- they are locked in a cage there. And, the humans generally view them as less than human.

So, compared to Zevran and the city elf (and I'd say also dwarf commoner), Alistair had a pretty great childhood.

[Sabriana]

Oh help again. I'm such a noob playing warriors, and now I'm again in a quandary. My girl hit level 14, and it's now between Berserker and Champion. She already took the Templar for the cool magic destroying. No, she's not a templar, she only learned the tricks of the trade from Alistair.

What should I pick? Which one? Oh help a poor out of her waters warrior beginner.

[Sialater]

Oh, I dunno, neglect warps a person just as much as abuse.





Now, back to Zevran.



I do want to thank y'all for this thread. I haven't been able to play enough to get all the facets of this character down, so thank you for doing my research for me! LOL

[Sialater]

Sabriana wrote...

Oh help again. I'm such a noob playing warriors, and now I'm again in a quandary. My girl hit level 14, and it's now between Berserker and Champion. She already took the Templar for the cool magic destroying. No, she's not a templar, she only learned the tricks of the trade from Alistair.
What should I pick? Which one? Oh help a poor out of her waters warrior beginner.

Champion.  I hate Berzerker.  Rally and War Cry is Teh Awesome.

[Sabriana]

Okay, thanks Sialater. You're a life-saver. Alright, I'll go right back and level her up. Then its time for some loving with you know who. Gads, this play-through is so fun. Zevran keeps staring at her, all the time. I've never noticed that before.

My Amazon (her name's Alissande btw), Zevran, Morrigan, and Alistair were at Jarvia's just now. In the animal pen, my girl told them all to wait because of the small spaces. When she told them they could move freely again, Zevran bolted for her side, while Morrigan and Alistair stayed where they were, quite further off. How sweet.

[Addai]

I think if you're a dual-wield DPS, Berserker is "supposed" to be your most helpful specialization, but templar was the only ability I ever actually used as a warrior. But, I ran with Alistair mostly and he had Champion maxed out so I didn't need that.  (And RP-wise, your "amazon" sounds like a Champion.  )

While we're pausing to talk about tactics, I recall ejoslin saying that you reset Zevran's (and all rogues') tactics in the game. Do you mind saying how you set them up? I find with my rogues that I do a lot of micromanaging or else I end up just wading in like a warrior.

Modifié par Addai67, 28 janvier 2010 - 08:26 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Namirsolo wrote...


Yes, but Alistair is no longer a child. He could now look back at the situation and realize that it was different from how he perceived it as a child, but he doesn't. For instance, as a child I was angry at my parent's for certain things that they did, but now that I am adult I can judge them less harshly because the world is less black and white to me.

And I said that Alistair was spoiled compared to Zevran which I fail to see how someone could disagree with. Zevran never knew his mother or his father and was raised by prostitutes. Then he was sold into slavery where he was forced to endure torture, give up all attachments to his former life, and kill people unless he wanted to be killed himself.

Yes, the city elf had a loving father. However, her mother was murdered by humans (we're not really told the particulars of this, but it is implied that humans did kill her in one of the dialogue options) while she was pretty young. I also believe, given the reaction that the city elf and her cousin have to Duncan appearing in the alienage, that humans quite often went there and probably most often had ill-intentions. Let's also not forget that the elves are not allowed to leave the alienage at all- they are locked in a cage there. And, the humans generally view them as less than human.

So, compared to Zevran and the city elf (and I'd say also dwarf commoner), Alistair had a pretty great childhood.

I disagree. As Slaater said, neglect, abondonment, and emotional abuse can warp a person in different ways and make it very difficult to cope later in life.

It's like in the real world, people who end up being raised in strict religous orders can quite often end up being preyed upon by members of the order and subjected to different forms of abuse, from physical to sexual and emotional. People who come out of such unbringings can end up with some serious mental problems, sometimes worse than say, some kid who was raised on the streets and ended up in a gang.

Judging by what I've seen of the Chantry and templars in game, I would not consider Alistair's childhood to be anything remotely pleasant.

You are also incorrect that elves are locked in the alienage. They can come and go, if you read the codexes. Some even try to buy homes and live life amongst humans. Most elves choose to stay within the alienages to be amongst their own kind. They sometimes do leave the alienages and try to buy houses/live amongst humans. The problems they encounter are that humans do not like or trust them, and given their inferior social status, opportunities to advance their position are limited. But I see there are several elves outside of the alienage, and no one really seems interested in tracking them down or forcing them to go home.

If you want to discuss oppression, the mages have a far deeper case. They are forbidden from existing outside the circle, forbidden from leaving it, and if they do, they have those nice guys in metal plate and dresses to hunt them down and kill them, no questions asked. So far, I don't see anyone hunting down elves for leaving their homes.

The only time the elves really get a lock down is after rioting.

[ejoslin]

Sialater wrote...

Well, I actually wanted to correct Zevran as an HNF.  Other than her family being betrayed, she knows she had it easy prior to that.  And knew his life hadn't been anything she'd have wished on a Mabari.  But the dialogue option comes across as snobby, instead of sympathetic (not that Zevran would accept that).  I had to choose the agreeing with him option.

You know, Zevran when romancing is so easy to please, you can take those less-approval gaining options and see what he says and get great answers.  His response to being told her life is nothing like his is revealing.  That she's only looking at the surface, and what they have in common, how'd he put it, brought together by fate and by excellence.  Yes, he has a high opinion of himself, but also of the warden which he sees as someone who also is a . . . oh, I don't know, better, stronger person, one who rises to the top . . . as he feels he does as well.

And while you can write off the HNF as having had a very good life, spoiled and pampered, I'm certain that the death of your entire family and losing all that has defined you has to be . . . more than traumatic.  She went from being the second child of the second most powerful man in Ferelden to being . . . nothing.  She lost everything.  Family, home; even her family's honor was slandered. The people she was charged to protect were now at the mercy of Howe (I believe she took the people of her Terynir more seriously than, say, Isolde did of her Arling).  Most people would completely crumble after something like that happened to them.  She not only had the inner reserves to keep herself together, but the additional strength to then go on and lead.  And not get blinded by either hate or pity.

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

I think if you're a dual-wield DPS, Berserker is "supposed" to be your most helpful specialization, but templar was the only ability I ever actually used as a warrior. But, I ran with Alistair mostly and he had Champion maxed out so I didn't need that.  (And RP-wise, your "amazon" sounds like a Champion.  )

While we're pausing to talk about tactics, I recall ejoslin saying that you reset Zevran's (and all rogues') tactics in the game. Do you mind saying how you set them up? I find with my rogues that I do a lot of micromanaging or else I end up just wading in like a warrior.

My Zevran tactics are pretty easy, actually. He drops into stealth when at 90 health or less.  But for the most part, I put paralyzing runes in his dagger, and have coup de grace and momentum as a talent.  So he hits FAST, things usually get paralyzed, then it doesn't matter where he is, just about every hit is a backstab and he's doing between 70 - 90 damage per hit.  Things die very quickly. 

Edit: If you keep his default tactics, he will attack whatever is attacking you, which, in some cases is ok, but if you're playing a warrior, it means he jumps around to everything and it doesn't work out too well.  If you're a controlling mage, or even a an archer rogue, it works out better.

Modifié par ejoslin, 28 janvier 2010 - 08:34 .

[Sabriana]

I usually give him more cunning, strength, and dex in the beginning, leaving willpower for later, and really not doing much with constitution. As long as STR and DEX are high, I found that CON rarely matters. I also gave him the lock-picking skills, leaving the stealth ones behind. He doesn't need them much, I found.

I give him the rogue talents in the first row, talent 1 - 3, and leave the rest (except lock-picking, of course) for later. Instead I give him all the DW talents that he can get.

And thanks for the compliment. She's indeed awesome. I have a screenshot, but I'll be darned if I know how to get it in here. Do I have to use Photobucket or something like that?

[Namirsolo]

You are also incorrect that elves are locked in the alienage. They can
come and go, if you read the codexes. Some even try to buy homes and
live life amongst humans. Most elves choose to stay within the
alienages to be amongst their own kind. They sometimes do leave the
alienages and try to buy houses/live amongst humans. The problems they
encounter are that humans do not like or trust them, and given their
inferior social status, opportunities to advance their position are
limited. But I see there are several elves outside of the alienage, and
no one really seems interested in tracking them down or forcing them to
go home.

Yeah, I was mixed up with the "plague" that happens in the endgame. In that instance they are locked in and cannot leave. I don't think this is a one-time occurrence. There was an uprising before that lead to the alienage being locked down, and many elves were slaughtered.

It's not really worth it to discuss levels of oppression. Both mages and elves are oppressed. The difference is that if a mage were to escape somehow from the tower (or be born outside of it like Morrigan) no one could tell just by looking at them that they are a mage. I wouldn't say either group has it better or worse than the other, though.


On my rogues, I tend to pump cunning and dex (but I make sure that cunning is always higher because I use lethality). I put their strength at about 20, so that they can use every dagger in the game. Then, they dual-wield daggers and have the specialization of duelist (mostly for the stat bonsuses, it gives, I don't use any of the skills) and assasin.

Modifié par Namirsolo, 28 janvier 2010 - 09:06 .

[Jaulen]

Yes, if you play as a CE male, and what Soris says after you kill *what's his name* Soris asks, "Will this lead them to Purge the Alienage again?" So, hmm, having roving bands of humans going through your home randomly killing people seems to be a rather common occurrance.

And mention made about CEs who try to leave the alieneage and buy a plce outside of it...they just don't get harassed, they get killed and their houses get burned down....it's not JUST being socially ostracized/ignored

And Alistair just hasn't matured mentally or emotionally yet. So yes, calling how he reacts childish and selfish is true. He's STILL acting like a little kid. And I would say to anyone IRL that doesn't realize, "Hmm, sh#te happens, deal with it"


****
I usually play a rouge and go heavy on Dex and Cun until later, then I start putting some into strength.

Was a lot of fun being the last one standing hacking at the archdemon's heels. Took FOREVER to bring 'em down....

Modifié par Jaulen, 28 janvier 2010 - 09:10 .

[Addai]

Sabriana wrote...
And thanks for the compliment. She's indeed awesome. I have a screenshot, but I'll be darned if I know how to get it in here. Do I have to use Photobucket or something like that?

That's how I do it.  If you upload it to Photobucket, there is html text on the left which you can just cut and paste into a post. 

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

My Zevran tactics are pretty easy, actually. He drops into stealth when at 90 health or less.  But for the most part, I put paralyzing runes in his dagger, and have coup de grace and momentum as a talent.  So he hits FAST, things usually get paralyzed, then it doesn't matter where he is, just about every hit is a backstab and he's doing between 70 - 90 damage per hit.  Things die very quickly. 

Love those paralyze rune- I am having trouble finding them in my current game.  I'll have to try the stealth tactic you mentioned.  Still, 70-90 per hit really?  My PC rogue is only doing 30-ish at level 14 with Momentum.  I must be doing something wrong.

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

My Zevran tactics are pretty easy, actually. He drops into stealth when at 90 health or less.  But for the most part, I put paralyzing runes in his dagger, and have coup de grace and momentum as a talent.  So he hits FAST, things usually get paralyzed, then it doesn't matter where he is, just about every hit is a backstab and he's doing between 70 - 90 damage per hit.  Things die very quickly. 

Love those paralyze rune- I am having trouble finding them in my current game.  I'll have to try the stealth tactic you mentioned.  Still, 70-90 per hit really?  My PC rogue is only doing 30-ish at level 14 with Momentum.  I must be doing something wrong.

You need coup de gras with the paralyze rune or have your mage be a controller (either morrigan or wynne if you're not a mage) so things are always paralyzed.  With coup de gras, if the mob is paralyzed, it doesn't matter what angle you're striking it, there's a good chance it will be a back stab.  I have him at 50 cun, so he hits hard too, with high dex, so he doesn't get hit much.

Edit: He has the rose thorn in his primary hand and I believe a tier 7 crow dagger in his secondary so he crits a LOT.  Also he uses red jenny seekers.

Modifié par ejoslin, 28 janvier 2010 - 10:22 .

[errant_knight]

Namirsolo wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Namirsolo wrote...


[...] I would say that if we're comparing Alistair to Zevran than Alistair was spoiled as a child. He basically had a father until he was at least 10, and then that father sent him away (out of love) and Alistair cannot recognize that Arl Eamon did what he did because he cared about him. I guess you could take the more cynical road and say that Eamon only protected Alistair so that he could put his adopted son on the throne and control him. But, I prefer to blieve that he sent Alistair to the chantry to get him away from the bitter atmosphere that Isolde was creating.

That's not really looking at it from the child's point of view, it's an outside view looking in. How does one person's pain negate another's? And I'm thinking that our view of what constitutes spoiled differs so widely that it probably doesn't meet anywhere along the road.

Yes, but Alistair is no longer a child. He could now look back at the situation and realize that it was different from how he perceived it as a child, but he doesn't. For instance, as a child I was angry at my parent's for certain things that they did, but now that I am adult I can judge them less harshly because the world is less black and white to me.

And I said that Alistair was spoiled compared to Zevran which I fail to see how someone could disagree with. Zevran never knew his mother or his father and was raised by prostitutes. Then he was sold into slavery where he was forced to endure torture, give up all attachments to his former life, and kill people unless he wanted to be killed himself.

Yes, the city elf had a loving father. However, her mother was murdered by humans (we're not really told the particulars of this, but it is implied that humans did kill her in one of the dialogue options) while she was pretty young. I also believe, given the reaction that the city elf and her cousin have to Duncan appearing in the alienage, that humans quite often went there and probably most often had ill-intentions. Let's also not forget that the elves are not allowed to leave the alienage at all- they are locked in a cage there. And, the humans generally view them as less than human.

So, compared to Zevran and the city elf (and I'd say also dwarf commoner), Alistair had a pretty great childhood.

Actually, he does look back on it differently, forgiving both Eamon and Isolde. You seem to be using spoiled as synonymous with 'didn't have it quite so bad', which is is not, so we're talking about apples and oranges. In any case, I've become aware that I wasn't supposed to comment about this, so I won't debate the point further. All I was trying to say is that seeing one positively doesn't mean one has to see the other negatively.

[Sabriana]

In my games he has the Rose's Thorn as well, but his main hand carries a longsword. It's usually the Green Blade in the beginning, and then I move him up in tiers, giving him Gorim's sword, and so on. They all can be upgraded with runes, which is totally nice.

I also have my PC save up her money, so she can get the "livegiver' ring from that addled merchant in Orzammar.

[Jaulen]

oh man, I've never saved enough money to get lifegiver or roses thorn....

[Cuddlezarro]

craft potent lyrium potions and sell them thats the easiest way to get cash for the super expensive items

[ejoslin]

Sabriana, daggers are better for rogues, I think. They're much faster, and do as much if not more damage.