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[Sresla]

It's some sort of triggered dialogue with Redcliffe (IF: PRESENT_WHEN_JOWAN_MET [wynne_main]. IF NOT: ARL_EAMON_PLOT_OVER. IF: party is at Redcliffe are the plot flags).

Wynne: And so we meet Jowan again. It must hurt you to see what he has become.
PC (if you choose "Why would it?" or "Yes, it does. He was my friend.")
Wynne: He was your fellow apprentice. Perhaps you even considered him your friend.
Wynne: I spoke to him, a year ago... he sounded like a nice boy. Earnest, a little awkward, perhaps. He talked about you with both awe and resentment. (??????)
Wynne: It seems he's made several bad decisions over the course of his life. Still, I can't help but feel sorry for him. (Yeah, the guy who resented me, it's him you feel sorry for, but when it comes to me and Zevran, wow, you have no trouble just telling me off about that, do you?)
PC: All he wanted to do was be with Lily.
Wynne: Ah, Lily. The girl from the Chantry. Vows made to a faceless organization are hardly a match for young love, are they? (NO THEY REALLY AREN'T, GLAD YOU ARE SO UNDERSTANDING)

Edit: Top of page required courtesy of Zephony at Deviant Art!

Modifié par Sresla, 03 avril 2010 - 09:50 .

[Sabriana]

Nice picture, Sresla

*goes to stare at the picture(s) some more*

[Tellervo]

I think I'll quote Shale, as its appropriate to the topic of Wynne: hag.

[jenovan]

Sresla wrote...

Speaking of the Gauntlet (indirectly), I was perusing Wynne's dialogue (yes, I know, why oh Maker why, but I was looking at the Zevran is bad for you conversation) and found another "God I want to kick her in the teeth" moment. I hadn't ever gotten this one on my mage - I'm guessing because I never take her to Redcliffe - where she talks about Jowan and proceeds to tell the player (if they're a mage) how Jowan talked about you with resentment back in the Tower.

-snip-

Edit: Forgot to add the best thing - the VO note for that dialogue? Remembering fondly. Ya, FU too, you old biddy Glad to know that people hating on me is a fond memory for you... And you wonder why I might never want to go back there and/or wipe out the mages?

Two things... "OMG" and "WAT". 

My mage wouldn't even mind the resentment bit from Jowan, he'd understand that a little, but like Sresla said, why he HELL would you tell someone that?!

Must ... control.... urge to play meta...

Modifié par jenovan, 03 avril 2010 - 11:03 .

[soulsweeper87]

Sresla wrote...

It's some sort of triggered dialogue with Redcliffe (IF: PRESENT_WHEN_JOWAN_MET [wynne_main]. IF NOT: ARL_EAMON_PLOT_OVER. IF: party is at Redcliffe are the plot flags).

Wynne: And so we meet Jowan again. It must hurt you to see what he has become.
PC (if you choose "Why would it?" or "Yes, it does. He was my friend.")
Wynne: He was your fellow apprentice. Perhaps you even considered him your friend.
Wynne: I spoke to him, a year ago... he sounded like a nice boy. Earnest, a little awkward, perhaps. He talked about you with both awe and resentment. (??????)
Wynne: It seems he's made several bad decisions over the course of his life. Still, I can't help but feel sorry for him. (Yeah, the guy who resented me, it's him you feel sorry for, but when it comes to me and Zevran, wow, you have no trouble just telling me off about that, do you?)
PC: All he wanted to do was be with Lily.
Wynne: Ah, Lily. The girl from the Chantry. Vows made to a faceless organization are hardly a match for young love, are they? (NO THEY REALLY AREN'T, GLAD YOU ARE SO UNDERSTANDING)

Uhh, what? <_< I can see than Jowan could be a little bit jealous of the PC, as he/she was supposedly a star pupil and Jowan seemed like a pretty mediocre mage, at best. Others may have perceived him as a PC's sidekick and that may have cuased some bitterness. Still, my characters aren't stupid enough to trust someone who resents them! Tower isn't so big, I'm sure they'd know.
I never saw this dialogue, but it's just another reason to dislike Wynn And to think I liked her at first.

[jenovan]

*****Jowan spoilers!*****





If you offer to execute Jowan yourself (you don't *have* to do it, you can still back out after this), as a mage, you can talk to him about why he started using blood magic. He will reveal that he was kinda jealous of the PC's abilities. Still, this doesn't come across (to me) as a mean, nasty sort of jealousy... just that of an insecure friend trying to measure up against their buddy. It was really a very poignant conversation IMO.

*****end spoilers*****



But ugh... if you ended up getting the hag's comment BEFORE that... (which you would)... that would ruin it. Ugh ugh ugh....

[Sannox]

Nonvita wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

Nonvita, don't take Oghren. His is so unbelievably sad, I teared up a little bit because of it. Every one else's is like, "whatever". I wish that Morrigan would answer her freaking question though. I'm weird, I don't like mystery.

Oh I know- you don't even get to hear her question. I like, though, the way she gets upset at it all. It's dumb to put everyone on the spot that way. It's not even any sort of a "moral" test, since you can get by no matter how you answer the question. It's just a way of shaming everyone for the sake of shaming them.
Morrigan speaks up as soon as the Warden is questioned. It's probably not intended as a friend thing, but I've always taken it that way. She's basically saying, "Leave him/her alone." It's about as close as she ever comes to protecting the Warden.

I do want to see Oghren, though. I usually end up being his friend, but still feeling like I know so little about him. I help him get back with Felsi, give him his alcohol, but where's the substance? I want to know more!

Yes, Morrigan is great at the Gauntlet.  She sees through it, doesn't she?  I agree that it's about shaming for the sake of it.  

Yesterady I had Zevran, Sten and Morrigan at the Gauntlet.   Sten didn't let the guardian fluster him, and Morrigan dismissed the whole thing.   (Although, I supposse she has to.   The question would be bound to be about the dark ritual and her purpose in being there).   Only Zevran got hurt.   I think I'm going to have to defile the ashes again, just so that I can kill the guardian for that.  Or I will do if I can ever get over the bridge. 

The only one I haven't taken yet is Shale.

[Sannox]

sami jo wrote...

Sannox wrote...

I think Zevran does need the warden, though, at least as much as the other characters do. He works through his issues on his own, without help (which is one of the things I love about him) - I do agree with that. But he's able to do that because of the warden. He doesn't need you to do anything for him but he does need your presence, I think. If it wasn't for the warden he'd be dead or damaged in some way.

Allistair and Lelianna seem to need the PC to define who they are for them.  Allistair can't/won't make a decision on his own and Lel will turn herself into a pretzel to be what you want her to be.  Zev needs the PC to care about him and truly value him, but he doesn't need the PC to tell him what his world view should be.  He doesn't seem to expect his opinions to matter, but he speaks up more than any of your other companions about the decisions you are making (or will if you are being evil anyway).  It has always seemed as if he is offering his opinion on how you should act while the others (generally) are offering their opinions on how you *did* act.  Of the romanceable companions, Morrigan and Zev both know who they are.  They learn to open up, trust, be valued and love, but they both have an inner strength and sense of self that isn't defined by others and doesn't require the PC at all.  They are both strong, determined, capable, survivors.  Lel and Ali need/want someone to lead them.  My PC's always value the fact that they can lean on Zev, even the ones who never romance him. 

I don't think my son has seen the US epilogues, so I kind of doubt he was (over) analyzing it the way I have.  I think he was just reacting to the hardening thing, the clinginess of Lel, and Ali's inability to make a decision.

I see what you (and your son) mean then, and I agree.  Zevran is the opposite of 'needy'.   He is a strong, resilient character.  (Although I think Leliana is too, in her way).    

About leadership - I don't think Zevran seems to aspire to it.  He says something right at the beginning about not being ambitious and I don't remember seeing any signs of ambition after that.   He speaks his mind, but doesn't try to take over (I like your point about him giving his opinions at the time instead of afterwards).  I get the impression that he's very happy in the role of sidekick/right hand man/supporter/etc.  

But actually needing the warden - I think his genuine need is greater than the other companions.   I remember being gobsmacked by the Rinna conversation first time round, so soon after meeting him.    He seems to say that you are the reason he now wants to live, and that he thinks he's found what he was looking for.  That's long before he's aware of feeling love (and I think it's a friendship option too).   The warden completely changes his life around.  He doesn't ask anything of you, but he needs you.  I don't know if there's an epilogue for him if you drive him out of the party, but I imagine his fate wouldn't be rosy.

[ejoslin]

Hmmmmm, Zevran does say that to a friendwarden. But I disagree that he is unaware of any feeling of love. That is one, though, that I have gone back and forth on -- when does Zevran have deeper feelings for the warden. I think it happens once he hits "adore."

Keep in mind, for Zevran to tell the story of his final mission to a friend, the Taliesen encounter has to be finished and the approval has to be high (+76 Friendly). The warden has saved his life and freed him from the Crows. The friendwarden has done more for Zevran than he probably ever thought anyone would.

However, he will tell this same story to a lover at Adore. That says to me that the feelings Zevran has to a lover before Taliesen are equal to that of a friend afterwards.

Edit: There are also a couple of times you can tell other people that you and Zevran are in love, even before the Taliesen encounter.  It can be played casually, but it my no means has to be.  But either way, Zevran has deeper feelings going on.  He trusts a lover, feels (s)he is more than he deserves, even before Taliesen.  I think by the time he hits "adore" he cares for the warden more than he's ever cared for anyone else.

Second edit: I wonder, though.  Maybe the reasons he will tell a lover/friend at those various times is because he is finally feeling valued as a person.  I don't think I could ever play it casual at that point, now that I think about that.

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 avril 2010 - 02:52 .

[ejoslin]

Hmmmm, reading the toolset some more (gah, I don't even play the game much any more, stupid toolset), Zevran in the fade, when you wake him, is supposed to join you and help you kill the demons according to the script notes. I wonder if that's worth attempting to fix.

Edit: Dammit, why I can't I leave this stuff alone.  I will try to fix it.

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 avril 2010 - 04:18 .

[jenovan]

That's interesting... I always found his inability to fight kind of endearing, though... XD

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmmm, reading the toolset some more (gah, I don't even play the game much any more, stupid toolset), Zevran in the fade, when you wake him, is supposed to join you and help you kill the demons according to the script notes. I wonder if that's worth attempting to fix.

I dunno, as it is I actually think that is more interesting.  Zevran is normally so fearless, but the "afraid" stance shows how traumatized he is at the memory.

[ejoslin]

Since 1.03, I don't even get him being terrified. Just standing around.

Actually, the scripting note directly contradicts the notes in the script itself.  Hmmmmm.

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 avril 2010 - 04:20 .

[Cuddlezarro]

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmmm, reading the toolset some more (gah, I don't even play the game much any more, stupid toolset), Zevran in the fade, when you wake him, is supposed to join you and help you kill the demons according to the script notes. I wonder if that's worth attempting to fix.

I dunno, as it is I actually think that is more interesting.  Zevran is normally so fearless, but the "afraid" stance shows how traumatized he is at the memory.

agreed

edit:though I do get that glitch ejoslin gets since i patched the game

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 03 avril 2010 - 04:19 .

[ejoslin]

Hmmmm, I'm not sure what causes the cringing. I liked that as well. Since there's a direct contradiction here, though, I think I will leave this alone. It's not like the fight is hard, and he's supposed to be in pain at that point anyway.

Edit: Ok, I found what makes him cower, and that hasn't changed, so something must have been overwritten in 1.03.

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 avril 2010 - 04:30 .

[Tellervo]

Haven't done the Fade since 1.03, have to see if I've lost the cringing as well. Talk about a punch in the gut, seeing him do that....



To lighten the mood, have we seen this bit of fanart?

[ejoslin]

Oooh, I like that!

[TripLight]

Tellervo wrote...

Haven't done the Fade since 1.03, have to see if I've lost the cringing as well. Talk about a punch in the gut, seeing him do that....

To lighten the mood, have we seen this bit of fanart?

That is beautiful!

[jenovan]

*grins* unsurprised to find it already faved on my account... X3

[Kaioku]

*sneaks in*
Sorry guys, nothing new from me yet, just some proper scans of the comic you've already seen.
Still, since I promised:








Or full-size on my DA-account.

*sneaks back out*

[SurrealSadi]

I still like this one....

[Tellervo]

Kaioku wrote...

*sneaks in*
Sorry guys, nothing new from me yet, just some proper scans of the comic you've already seen.
Still, since I promised:


>snip<

Or full-size on my DA-account.

*sneaks back out*

I really like that last panel.  Very cute.  And the awkward pose isn't so awkward--I sit like that quite frequently.

SurrealSadi wrote...

I still like this
one....

Much as I love suggestive mostly-naked Zev, those tattoos kind of ruin it for me.  They don't match the facial tats in style, and I honestly don't find them very attractive.  They make his back look wider, instead of accentuating muscle structure, which on elves seems to be very slim.  I've always imagined some very suggestive tattoos around the hips, and only a little inking on the back.

[SurrealSadi]

Tellervo wrote...

Kaioku wrote...

*sneaks in*
Sorry guys, nothing new from me yet, just some proper scans of the comic you've already seen.
Still, since I promised:


>snip<

Or full-size on my DA-account.

*sneaks back out*

I really like that last panel.  Very cute.  And the awkward pose isn't so awkward--I sit like that quite frequently.

SurrealSadi wrote...

I still like this
one....

Much as I love suggestive mostly-naked Zev, those tattoos kind of ruin it for me.  They don't match the facial tats in style, and I honestly don't find them very attractive.  They make his back look wider, instead of accentuating muscle structure, which on elves seems to be very slim.  I've always imagined some very suggestive tattoos around the hips, and only a little inking on the back.

True, but it's still an amazing painting, and the tattoos on the back do draw the eyes downward...

[TripLight]

LOL Kaioku, its awesome, and poor Jiminy.



Found two gorgeous renditions of Zev from LuciferaCat at DevArt:

[Tellervo]

I do really like that second one. I find a lot of people on DA have trouble with Zev's face, or something, and it makes me cringe at even the really good stuff. In spite of that, this is probably my favorite piece of Zevran fanart to date. At least until Soulsweeper does more art and satisfies my stiffy for lines.