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[Cuddlezarro]

Sannox wrote...

Oh, Doctor Who - did anybody see the new Doctor Who this weekend? What did you think? I thought Matt Smith was great fun, and rather attractive in a quirky sort of way.

Charsen did

im to busy playing catch up on the new series to be that far yet (im still on season 1 disk 3 of the reboot and got done watching the episode where rose tries to save her dad)

[Tellervo]

soignee wrote...

afternoon everyone. Spending my hours writing Zevran doin' my Brosca in Adraste's place of final rest, just because the image made me lulz.

...Anyway, how is everyone?

*goes back to fanfiction in special box*

This blasphemy--both my Warden and I approve (+15).

[Mirthadrond]

Sannox - read my post above.

Thinking back on it, Zev doesn't act like a man at all. He behaves like a woman. He says one thing, and means another.



Such complexity eludes my fragile mind, and simpleton brain.

[Tellervo]

Sannox wrote...

Male elf gate kiss video for anybody who is interested. I apologise for the crappy quality.  It looks much better in the game.   I think those yelllow blobs of smoke coming off them are Loghain's 'rally'.  If they're not, I don't know what they are.  It's more of an embrace than a kiss, but very sad and beautiful.   Thank you, Charsen and Ejoslin.

Speaking of blasphemy... the long ending doesn't work for me at all (too much like this new "drunk" animation, and I just have flashbacks to this awful new DLC), the camera work is indeed too fast, and I really enjoy the adorable head bowing in the HM/Zev one... it was such a vulnerable, lonesome gesture.
 Doesn't work when you're the same height, though.  However, not having that means you don't have that closeness... it just looks like Zev's blueballing you here on the kiss, instead of that sweet hesitance in the HM cutscene.

I love the slow slide with the hand, though.

[soignee]

Mirthadrond wrote...

Sannox - read my post above.
Thinking back on it, Zev doesn't act like a man at all. He behaves like a woman. He says one thing, and means another.

Such complexity eludes my fragile mind, and simpleton brain.

Join this Bioware fanclub IMO.

Modifié par soignee, 04 avril 2010 - 05:37 .

[ejoslin]

Mirthadrond wrote...

Sannox - read my post above.
Thinking back on it, Zev doesn't act like a man at all. He behaves like a woman. He says one thing, and means another.

Such complexity eludes my fragile mind, and simpleton brain.

Actually, it's more that he doesn't say everything.  The romance definitely is NOT for everyone.  But you didn't finish it, and you couldn't allow yourself to understand the character's behavior in the context of his upbringing.  Which is as an assassin who uses seduction as a tool.  He was a ****house boy until the age of 7 (which is horrifying if you think about even THAT aspect of his life), trained to be a killer, tortured as part of his training.

The fact that he has a very caring heart and ends up equating sex with love is in itself pretty extraordinary.  But it's not all flowers and puppy dogs for sure.

[Tellervo]

Mirthadrond wrote...

Sannox - read my post above.
Thinking back on it, Zev doesn't act like a man at all. He behaves like a woman. He says one thing, and means another.

Such complexity eludes my fragile mind, and simpleton brain.

A lot of people kill him outright after their first playthough because he gives them a headache, apparently.  I kind of sympathize with you, despite the fact that Zev's my favorite character.  All that subtext and blatant stuff Ejoslin says is present really is, though, confirmed by using the toolset.  Zevran's the only one who gives you a lasting committment at the end of the game (once you take into account the fact that a HN's marriage to Alistair is purely political, his default is to break up with you), and that's especially apparent if you do the US ending.

Those lines missing at the City Gates would be the culmination of the relationship for people who didn't turn down the earring the first time, and that the game leaves something so important out confounds me.

[soignee]

Tellervo wrote...


This blasphemy--both my Warden and I approve (+15).

I fecking hate the Ashes and all they stand for. Yeah my Pragmatic, anti religious dwarf totally thinks it makes sense to get some ashes of a mad dead woman for some Arl to snort and hope they'll heal him back to health.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-

[Tellervo]

soignee wrote...

Tellervo wrote...


This blasphemy--both my Warden and I approve (+15).

I fecking hate the Ashes and all they stand for. Yeah my Pragmatic, anti religious dwarf totally thinks it makes sense to get some ashes of a mad dead woman for some Arl to snort and hope they'll heal him back to health.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-

Yes.  Cadryn went, "Whut."  And then I imagine he laughed for a good five minutes before someone could calm him down and explain that they were serious about this quest.

[Cuddlezarro]

soignee wrote...

Tellervo wrote...


This blasphemy--both my Warden and I approve (+15).

I fecking hate the Ashes and all they stand for. Yeah my Pragmatic, anti religious dwarf totally thinks it makes sense to get some ashes of a mad dead woman for some Arl to snort and hope they'll heal him back to health.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-

heh all my dwarves have defiled the ashes hell I used defiling the ashes as an excuse to kill off ones girlfriend so he could get with zevran lol

also Xander defiled them as well hey if you read genitivi's note reavers are suppossed to be pretty damn powerful, and its not like any one but the loony cult(which he killed off after they gave him what they wanted because they where too dangerous) and an old man (who got sent to denerim because he was in no condition to go mountainc limbing) knew about the ashes >_>

[Sannox]

Mirthadrond wrote...

Perhaps it's just my simple man brain that makes Zev less complicated.

Even in real life I waste little time trying to read between the lines, which frustates my wife to no end. I constantly miss her subtle clues and innuendos, regarding what she really wants from me.

I reloaded almost every conversation I had with Zev, because if I was real to my character, I always ended up with disapproval.
Reload, try another response...

He's like a woman!!! Too complex for me to understand!!

I got him to 100, and love; he even gave me the earing, but made it sound like no big deal.
So, my male mind immediately thought it was "no big deal"...

Go figure...

Anyway... I don't recall him ever rejecting me about sex, but I wasn't hounding him about sex all the time either.
In my mind, as a woman at the time, I was presuming the man would at least try to do the mommy daddy dance with me, at least once. (after romance had started)

then, there he was at love rating, still hitting on Wynn and Leilanna.

Unfortunately, game / conversation limitations don't allow us to "disapprove" and make them work for a change.

In contrast, my romance with Alister seems so natural, simple, and sweet.

Easier than Leilanna even, despite her ninja love. She starts talking about shoes and I just want to hit the escape key..

Argh, I'm not doing a good job at rping....

I didn't find I had to be too careful with the conversations.  If you're flirting and interested in him, I think you tend to go for more favourable responses.   If you go for 'you're an evil murderer' type responses, then he's bound to get offended.   That's why you have him along, for killing.  I tried to get his approval down once to see what happened, and sometimes it was difficult to offend him (and I also got some interesting responses).   But I got it very wrong when I tried to order him to tell me how to be an assassin.  I didn't need to know, but I thought I was flirting and that he would laugh, but it offended him.   I do find it difficult to judge the tone of some of the responses.  

Zevran seemed more 'simple' than Alistair.   He's attracted, he has sex with you (usually), and accidentally falls in love (but doesn't know it until late in the game).   There's no game playing.  I don't think he's complicated as a romance option.   He does offer sex once, I think, if you don't ask first (the massage), but generally he lets you take the lead.   He only refuses sex when he starts to realise he's in love, and then will have sex again very quickly if you talk to him about it. 

[Minaleth]

Sannox wrote...

Mirthadrond wrote...

See, as a man, I think you ladies are just reading too much between the lines.

Men are not that complicated. Really.

In what way are we reading too much between the lines?   Are you saying that Zevran is a more straightforward character than he appears?  In what way?  (Genuine questions, because I don't understand).

I'll tell you why do I think that be overanalyze sometimes. Read this e.g.

ejoslin wrote...
The reason I don't think this, and it's odd, is he makes you choose even if you're not having sex with him.  But not only that -- he will have sex with the warden even if the warden is at 100 love with someone else; it's not until Zevran hits "adore" that he makes the warden choose.  

Ejoslin's wonderful interpretation makes us think that Zev wants the exclusively committed Warden when he likes them enough (= he is inevitably falling in love and is on the way to admit it maybe?), and that even if they haven't had sex (=his relationship with Warden is not about sex at all?). He doesn't care about Warden's sexual activities or romantic relations at all, until something magical happens in his brain (= once he is in love it's all only about Warden and Zev?). This is all plausible and very entertaining train of thought, but... 

... in simple truth IMHO (!!) this is all about game design and it means nothing. All LI are designed to push PC to choose once specific conditions are met. The game doesn't check if PC is 100 in love with another char when resolving if Zev has tent option in dialogue or not. The check when to trigger choosing dialogue is same for each LI, it has nothing specific regarding Zev's personality. That's the problem with fictional characters when you really reason about their motives, they don't have genuine motives only the ones their author gave them and honestly I think that authors do not think THAT comprehensively about their chars as we do it here Sorry if someone does, I know I do not ... maybe that's why my writing sux? (LOL, I have been talking to my boring brain today.)

That is the point where reading something that isn't there happens I think. But it's fun, so who cares <3 

[Mirthadrond]

I see, I definately missed some of his dialog then.



I usually tried to talk to him every time we were in camp, but he eventually stopped giving me new dialog choices, so I must have missed some event somewhere to trigger the real deal.



His Love'o'meter hit 100, so I thought that was it until then ending.



I do like Zev a lot as a character, despite killing him last time with my dwarf. (payback for leaving me in the romance epilogue)



well, I did feel a little regret.... But at the same time, my mdn is a cold cold man.

So far he's shown absolutely no mercy to anyone, unless mercy killings count?

He would have left Leilanna behind as well, with all her crazy maker talk, but I need 3 companions to finish the ash quest.

[Cuddlezarro]

you dont need 3 companions to finish the ashes quest if you enter that part of the gauntlet lacking party members you get ash wraiths to help you instead

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 04 avril 2010 - 05:55 .

[Minaleth]

Mirthadrond wrote...
Thinking back on it, Zev doesn't act like a man at all. He behaves like a woman. He says one thing, and means another.

Maybe I know weird people but I do not think this is female specific thing. It's certain people specific thing. I know some most complicated and layered guys and most simple woman

(Note, my previous comment were only about overanalyzing. I agree that Zevran and his romance is complex and need quite a bit of careful uncovering. But on the other hand it could be the most natural thing to do for certain roleplayed wardens).

[Sannox]

Minaleth wrote...
... in simple truth IMHO (!!) this is all about game design and it means nothing. All LI are designed to push PC to choose once specific conditions are met. The game doesn't check if PC is 100 in love with another char when resolving if Zev has tent option in dialogue or not. The check when to trigger choosing dialogue is same for each LI, it has nothing specific regarding Zev's personality. That's the problem with fictional characters when you really reason about their motives, they don't have genuine motives only the ones their author gave them and honestly I think that authors do not think THAT comprehensively about their chars as we do it here Sorry if someone does, I know I do not ... maybe that's why my writing sux? (LOL, I have been talking to my boring brain today.)

That is the point where reading something that isn't there happens I think. But it's fun, so who cares <3 

Very true.  I know I do tend to take what is a simple gameplay thing and try to turn it into something that makes sense in the real world in real relationships.   And I'm probably over-literal about it.   I know I tied myself in knots last time we talked about this, by trying to work out why his reaction was triggered by what the other companions felt rather than what the warden felt.   When, of course, the simple answer is that the game only 'knows' what the other companions feel, and can't know what the warden feels.  There is no way for his reaction to be triggered by what you feel because you don't have 'approval'.

But in that context, his reaction makes sense to me - it's not about jealousy (because it's not about what you feel for other people), but about honour, morality, fairness. 

[ejoslin]

Of course it's a game mechanic -- but it's also one that is very easily changed if you wanted to get a different message across about Zevran. I think the point is, he feels the same as the other love interests do when it gets to that level.

Edit: In one of the Alistair dialog mods, in fact, the author DOES change the mechanic and has Alistair objecting to the warden sleeping with Zevran at 51+ care instead of 71+ adore.  I could, in about three seconds, make it so that Zevran steps aside once Alistair or Leliana hits adore.  That is not how it's set up, though.  

My point, at least what I'm trying to get across, is it is NOT about the other person.  Zevran has to have deep feelings as well -- if he doesn't, he'll sleep with a warden who's in love with Alistair or Leliana.  I think if the game really did want to reflect that Zevran was just concerned about Alistair and Leliana, it would be set up so it was about that and Zevran would be forcing the choice based on their feelings.  But he's forcing the choice based on HIS.

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 avril 2010 - 06:18 .

[Mimsypeach]

Huh...I always thought the PC had the most misleading dialogue. As Sannox mentioned above, with the ordering him to teach the assassin specialization, it sort of shows that as a player, you can roleplay it a certain way, but the response will be less than favorable ; There were too many instances of that in my first playthrough. Zev ended up in the high orange area by the end of the game due to my trying to sound awesome and instead making him less than happy >__>;



Morning, all -nibbles on chocolate-



and @epic kiss mods:....I'm all teary eyed now. I cannot wait til I get the PC version so these can be installed -grins wildly- Female's on the way, yes?

[Minaleth]

Sannox wrote...
Very true.  I know I do tend to take what is a simple gameplay thing and try to turn it into something that makes sense in the real world in real relationships.   And I'm probably over-literal about it.   I know I tied myself in knots last time we talked about this, by trying to work out why his reaction was triggered by what the other companions felt rather than what the warden felt.   When, of course, the simple answer is that the game only 'knows' what the other companions feel, and can't know what the warden feels.  There is no way for his reaction to be triggered by what you feel because you don't have 'approval'.

But in that context, his reaction makes sense to me - it's not about jealousy (because it's not about what you feel for other people), but about honour, morality, fairness. 

And there is nothing wrong about assigning meaning to that. It's actually awesome when things click together like puzzle pieces and it makes sense.
I see for you this happens with push to choose dialogue. Unfortunately for me it doesn't and I take it as bit ooc due to game design.  I'll see how this will turn out with next Warden, she is more possessive :3

[Sannox]

I don't think he has to. He does give acceptable reasons for forcing a choice. If he doesn't actually believe these reasons and is moralising because he's jealous - well, I'm not sure that the character I imagine would do that. It's too pompous and manipulative.

ETA: I type too slow - this was in response to Ejoslin, and I meant that I don't think he has to feel the same as the others.  
I don't equate love with jealousy.   The two are quite independent, in my experience.   So I'm not saying that if he isn't jealous, he isn't in love, not at all.  I also think it's possible that he may be jealous, but not recognise it.  But taking the moral high ground as an excuse to cover jealousy - that's what I don't see, the way I picture him.  (But I will admit that I probably take a lot of what he says over-literally).

I don't think he's so much just concerned about the other companions as individuals, but about the bigger moral picture.  And in real world terms, I think he's right - this is a situation where you would be claiming to be faithful to one work colleague/housemate while having an affair with another (Zevran) and making him keep it a secret.    it's not hugely morally wrong, but it's not right either.    It doesn't matter that Zevran will have sex when the other companion is at love, because the other companion doesn't mind (not until Zevran's approval goes up, anyway).   It can be open and honest.  

Modifié par Sannox, 04 avril 2010 - 06:28 .

[Nonvita]

Mirthadrond wrote...
Thinking back on it, Zev doesn't act like a man at all. He behaves like a woman. He says one thing, and means another.

Two notes:
1. Not every guy acts the same. I've known guys who are as straightforward as can be, and guys who genuinely have different layers to their personalities. Zevran may be complicated, but I wouldn't call him "womanly" for it. He was also written by a man, and like ejoslin said, it's obvious (especially from the toolset notes) that the writer intentionally put those layer there.

2. You don't have to get his approval up with every conversation to get him to love. I did a friend playthrough where I got him up to the +90s after getting disapproval (often major) on just about every conversation, and obviously never taking him to the sack. If you romance him, it's actually pretty difficult not to get his approval up all the way, regardless of some disapproval points.

Otherwise, I think everything has been covered. Hope it helps a little.

Oh, and the epilogue card saying he stayed with you "for a time" simply means that you both get caught up in other business later (i.e. Awakening), not that he leaves you. You're still definitely in a relationship, and as far as I'm concerned nothing will tear you two apart unless you want it to.

[Ramante]

omg, I took Zevran, Oghren and Shale to the Ashes quest today.. and Oghren just made me laugh. I decided that this playthrough I would defile the ashes, so here I am talking to Kolgrim. Suddenly Oghren starts about the Dragon being a good trophy and that we should kill it for sport. Next thing I know Kolgrim attacks, because he thought I was insulting the Dragon. :'

Am going to replay that part again, but damn it was so funny. xD

[Minaleth]

Sannox wrote...

I don't think he has to. He does give acceptable reasons for forcing a choice. If he doesn't actually believe these reasons and is moralising because he's jealous - well, I'm not sure that the character I imagine would do that. It's too pompous and manipulative.

Let's say the Warden reads it as disguised jealousy and interprets that as Zevran secretly cares which makes her feel wanted and snap, Warden falls in love, dumps Alistair and runs away with Zev. Just a RP example.

Modifié par Minaleth, 04 avril 2010 - 06:24 .

[Nonvita]

Oh! And Charsen--you, sir, get whatever (regular or special) baked goods your heart desires for so long as you should continue to desire them.

Thrown in for good measure:
:wub::wub::wub:

[ejoslin]

There's also another interpretation. That it bothers him, and he has no idea WHY. It's just something he never experienced before. He knows he doesn't want the warden with Alistair, and rationalizes it to himself.

The VO notes say he's trying to act uncaring there, but not quite succeeding.

The problem isn't about sex, because you don't have to have sex with him to force the choice (though that could easily be put in). It's not about the other person's feelings exclusively, because it could also very easily be put in there that he forces the choice based on the other person's feelings exclusively. It's about his feelings.

Edit: In fact, there's a separate dialog if you haven't had sex with him yet, which actually is a bit nicer, but he's still forcing the choice, still trying to trivialize their relationship, and still expecting to be dumped.

Honestly, despite what he says there, do you think when he says, "I'll happily step aside.  Everyone's the happier." he really means it?

Edit: Zevran is supposed to be as faithful and as devoted as the other love interests once in a relationship.

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 avril 2010 - 06:32 .