35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Aroihkin]

...Coherency is overrated.

Edit:


I always liked this cutscene. I just now realized it's because it actually displays decently on my computer. o_o

Modifié par Aroihkin, 11 avril 2010 - 08:27 .

[Tellervo]

Ramante wrote...

Good morning all and oh my... ._.
This isn't what I was expecting in this thread this morning..

Nonvita wrote...

TripLight wrote...
Come over to the Dark Side, Nonvita. We have cake, and it is NOT a lie.

You all are cruel for tempting an innocent girl such as myself onto this path of evil. Hum. I'll have to think about it.

I know what you mean, it looks interesting but at the same time I don't have time for it.
Some of these peoples/characters/whatever look Egyptian, that's cheating! I can't resist if they look like that.

They are the setting's equivalent of north African... and all members of my favorite RPG organization.  I (heart) the Sunspears so much....  They give me an even bigger nerdgasm than the Grey Wardens.

[Charsen]

And here we spy the elusive Crow...

*deleted*

k, back to kisses for me. =P

*edit* deleted pic, check list on pg 710 for list of links

Modifié par Charsen, 11 avril 2010 - 11:25 .

[Tellervo]

Charsen wrote...

And here we spy the elusive Crow...



k, back to kisses for me. =P

I--what--

[Nonvita]

Charsen wrote...

And here we spy the elusive Crow...



k, back to kisses for me. =P

Why does all this make me imagine that for every night not spent with the Warden, you can find Zevran out in the forest getting in some private time...

*needs to stop having an overactive imagination tonight*

[Aroihkin]

Charsen wrote...

And here we spy the elusive Crow...



k, back to kisses for me. =P

In his natural habitat?

[Charsen]

don't know what you guys are implying. he is just getting some air and counting the stars.

[Nonvita]

Charsen wrote...

don't know what you guys are implying. he is just getting some air and counting the stars.

And extremely overcome with awe at the beauty of the universe...

[Tellervo]

Charsen wrote...

don't know what you guys are implying. he is just getting some air and counting the stars.

I find that just as hot.  Is that strange?

[Aroihkin]

Tellervo wrote...

Charsen wrote...

don't know what you guys are implying. he is just getting some air and counting the stars.

I find that just as hot.  Is that strange?

Nope, I agree! Unless we're both strange.

Which is possible.

[Sresla]

Sorry, were you guys talking? I think I hear darkspawn out there in the bushes. I am going to investigate. Be back... in a few hours. Or longer. Don't wait up. Don't come looking for me. Just trust that Zevran whatever's out there will get what's coming to him it.

Modifié par Sresla, 11 avril 2010 - 08:50 .

[Tellervo]

Aroihkin wrote...

Tellervo wrote...

Charsen wrote...

don't know what you guys are implying. he is just getting some air and counting the stars.

I find that just as hot.  Is that strange?

Nope, I agree! Unless we're both strange.

Which is possible.

Probable, even.

[Tellervo]

Sresla wrote...

Sorry, were you guys talking? I think I hear darkspawn out there in the bushes. I am going to investigate. Be back... in a few hours. Or longer. Don't wait up. Don't come looking for me. Just trust that whatever's out there will get what's coming to him it.

HAH YES

These screenshots make me want to write dirty things.  I must resist and concentrate on the enormous amount of writing I've already commited to.

[Aroihkin]

Sresla wrote...

Sorry, were you guys talking? I think I hear darkspawn out there in the bushes. I am going to investigate. Be back... in a few hours. Or longer. Don't wait up. Don't come looking for me. Just trust that Zevran whatever's out there will get what's coming to him it.

Tellervo wrote...

Aroihkin wrote...

Tellervo wrote...

Charsen wrote...

don't know what you guys are implying. he is just getting some air and counting the stars.

I find that just as hot.  Is that strange?

Nope, I agree! Unless we're both strange.

Which is possible.

Probable, even.

I'll admit nothing if you don't.

Modifié par Aroihkin, 11 avril 2010 - 08:56 .

[Sannox]

I've gone back a couple of times and read the David Gaider post in this
thread.   And today, this part is bothering me. 

David Gaider
wrote...
Is he thin? Sure. He's an elf, and they all have the same
body. Is he bisexual because he's an elf? Not at all -- the choice to
make him an elf came from his background... in some ways he's a victim
of his circumstances, which are pretty bad for all elves, and instead of
whining about it he's rolled with the punches. He's amoral, but I'm not
sure that assassin-with-a-heart-of-gold would somehow be better in
terms of breaking stereotypes. His sexuality is part of what he is, but
it doesn't define him -- should it? A lot of what he is comes from him
being an assassin. If we made every decision regarding his character
about his sexuality alone, wouldn't that define the very essence of a
stereotype?

Because I feel that Zevran is moral, I'm not sure what to make of that.  Does it just mean simply in relation to being an assassin, that he just gets on with the job rather than angsting over the rights and wrongs of it?  Or does it mean that he's actually an amoral character?    I think maybe it might be the formar as Gaider is comparing him to an 'assassin with a heart of gold'.   But if it's the latter, it doesn't seem to fit with how I see his character portrayed.   What about the defence of the enslaved elves, for instance?    (It doesn't even quite fit with RTO - feeling that Cailan's body belongs to the victors and disapproving when it's interfered seems to show a different sort of moral code rather than amorality.) 

Maybe I've just plucked out one word and am making too much a fuss over what it means.  What do you think?  Is he really amoral?

[Aroihkin]

Sannox wrote...

I've gone back a couple of times and read the David Gaider post in this
thread.   And today, this part is bothering me. 

David Gaider wrote...
Is he thin? Sure. He's an elf, and they all have the same body. Is he bisexual because he's an elf? Not at all -- the choice to make him an elf came from his background... in some ways he's a victim of his circumstances, which are pretty bad for all elves, and instead of whining about it he's rolled with the punches. He's amoral, but I'm not sure that assassin-with-a-heart-of-gold would somehow be better in terms of breaking stereotypes. His sexuality is part of what he is, but it doesn't define him -- should it? A lot of what he is comes from him being an assassin. If we made every decision regarding his character about his sexuality alone, wouldn't that define the very essence of a stereotype?

Because I feel that Zevran is moral, I'm not sure what to make of that.  Does it just mean simply in relation to being an assassin, that he just gets on with the job rather than angsting over the rights and wrongs of it?  Or does it mean that he's actually an amoral character?    I think maybe it might be the formar as Gaider is comparing him to an 'assassin with a heart of gold'.   But if it's the latter, it doesn't seem to fit with how I see his character portrayed.   What about the defence of the enslaved elves, for instance?    (It doesn't even quite fit with RTO - feeling that Cailan's body belongs to the victors and disapproving when it's interfered seems to show a different sort of moral code rather than amorality.) 

Maybe I've just plucked out one word and am making too much a fuss over what it means.  What do you think?  Is he really amoral?

I think -- and I could be wrong, of course -- that the comparison with the "assassin-with-a-heart-of-gold" type references his stance on being a hired killer. Death happens, but it happens more when he gets paid for it, etc. He tries not to involve innocent bystanders and kids, but admits it sometimes happens anyway -- and he doesn't sound happy about that, but he doesn't exactly angst over it, either. He tells himself that the people he kills probably had it coming anyway. That's reasonably amoral, even though he has his reasons for it.

But yeah, arguing for the Dalish, and for the city elf slaves, and even that he can be persuaded that the Anvil of the Void in the wrong hands is a Bad Enough Possibility to destroy it... none of that suggests an over-all amoral character. Hell, his angst over Rinna, and even somewhat over Taliesen, isn't the sign of someone who's amoral in a general sense.

So my theory is Gaider meant as an assassin, although Zev doesn't necessarily have any experience with anything else with which to have a moral code built-in for different situations. He's pretty disgusted with Harrowmont being such a pushover and would rather support Bhelen, but among Crows that would be the smarter choice to back, by far. Yeah, Bhelen uses blackmail to get what he wants, but what's blackmail to a Crow? He wants to kill Ruck to put him out of his misery, rather than... say... extorting money out of the mother for information on her son, or something similarly purely mercenary.

Edit: Although one could argue that Zev is amoral anyway, since being amoral is simply not assigning any weight to morality, rather than being immoral. But since he has a problem with slavery and slaughter (the mages also come to mind), and believes in mercy-killing, and is even sympathic to a female CE who tells him that her betrothed died (I don't know what the dialogue is for a male CE), I'd hold that his amorality only applies to being an assassin. He does seem to give weight to right or wrong outside of that line of work (which he never had a choice over anyway).

Modifié par Aroihkin, 11 avril 2010 - 10:37 .

[Minaleth]

Amoral? Yes, in a way. Depends how you define morality His assassin occupation itself makes him amoral enough for some people. He even admits he likes the act of killing. IRL this grants you not only amoral label but nice place in jail. Thus I am not surprised that he could be labeled amoral rather easily.

But on the other hand he definitely has his standards, lines he doesn't cross and conscience. Examples listed above. In a low fantasy setting I would say he is moral.



PS: the deep thought screenies are hilarious but PLZ stop or else I am in serious trouble.

[Sannox]

Thank you. I agree with all that you say. He can't be an overall amoral character. I was thrown by hearing it from the horses mouth, but I suppose I'm taking it out of context a bit. Morality is a big issue in the game for me, so it's important. (Not that I play 'good' characters as such. I like the fact that the moral choices are a bit ambiguous, and my characters tend to be a bit mixed too).



His talk about being assassin reminds me of how a soldier might explain it - the job is killing. You don't kill for the fun of it, but you can enjoy a job done well. You don't question the reason for the kill, because you do what you're signed up to. It's the same for all the companions except on rare occasions. They will kill, if told to, without questioning. Zevran probably questions more than most! So yes, I think his 'amorality' must be purely related to being an assassin, and could apply to the other companions too, to some extent. I can see why having him angsting over it wouldn't work.

[Aroihkin]

Minaleth wrote...

Amoral? Yes, in a way. Depends how you define morality His assassin occupation itself makes him amoral enough for some people. He even admits he likes the act of killing. IRL this grants you not only amoral label but nice place in jail. Thus I am not surprised that he could be labeled amoral rather easily.
But on the other hand he definitely has his standards, lines he doesn't cross and conscience. Examples listed above. In a low fantasy setting I would say he is moral.

PS: the deep thought screenies are hilarious but PLZ stop or else I am in serious trouble.

Having standards, and lines he won't cross, by definition means he gives weight to morality and isn't amoral. At least, outside of his profession.

Inside his profession, he's never had a choice about it. Although, wasn't it mentioned somewhere that he resisted the idea of becoming a killer? I've seen this referenced but can't remember an actual in-game mention of such. Or even official and out-of-game. Anyone know? Or did I totally mis-read something somewhere? Lack of short-term memory, and all that. XD

Though even unwilling amoralism (brainwashing/being raised into it) is still amoralism. At least within his line of work.

Edit: If you're his mark, you're going to die. Unless... you're the PC and kick his butt first.

Sannox wrote...

Thank you. I agree with all that you say. He can't be an overall amoral character. I was thrown by hearing it from the horses mouth, but I suppose I'm taking it out of context a bit. Morality is a big issue in the game for me, so it's important. (Not that I play 'good' characters as such. I like the fact that the moral choices are a bit ambiguous, and my characters tend to be a bit mixed too).

His talk about being assassin reminds me of how a soldier might explain it - the job is killing. You don't kill for the fun of it, but you can enjoy a job done well. You don't question the reason for the kill, because you do what you're signed up to. It's the same for all the companions except on rare occasions. They will kill, if told to, without questioning. Zevran probably questions more than most! So yes, I think his 'amorality' must be purely related to being an assassin, and could apply to the other companions too, to some extent. I can see why having him angsting over it wouldn't work.

Emphasis mine. Exactly that. Soldiers shoot who they're ordered to shoot, and those who tear themselves up over individual cases end up broken for life. My Dad was a Vietnam vet who drank his guilt -- and eventually his life* -- away. So I saw this for myself. ( *he didn't kill himself, precisely, although he had the shotgun in his mouth when I came home from school often enough. I say it only to lend weight to my agreement, not to angst or make people uncomfortable. I do seem to do the latter a lot in this thread. )

Zev's way of handling it is kind of better. Amoral? Maybe. But refusing to assign morality to being an assassin is actually oddly healthy, for someone who doesn't have a choice about it anyway. The ones who can't learn to cope and thus end up cracking, die. Wonder how much of the fatality rate of Crow trainees is due to that? What little kid wants to kill people for the rest of their life?

Modifié par Aroihkin, 11 avril 2010 - 11:03 .

[Minaleth]

I am not sure is soldier vs. assassin comparison is really good one, but the fact he didn't have much choice only adds to me opinion - judging from Zevran's actions and backstory given the setting I think he is moral person, at least to my standards

[UnDutchable]

The line about Zevran resisting Crow training is from his codex entry, if I recall correctly.

I was actually pleasantly surprised by Zevran's amoralism. The cliché of the assassin who regrets every kill he's ever made really annoys me, since it usually leads to a lot of guilt-tripping and "fix me!"-relationships. I understand why the cliché exists, my grandfather regretted what he did as a soldier his entire life, but it just bothers me because it pops up so often. As you said, Aroihkin, Zevran's attitude towards his job is a rather healthy one, and the Crow recruits who couldn't make peace with what they had to do were probably "weeded out" quite early in their training.

[Charsen]

i'm sorry Mina. i sometimes am a bit thoughtless. i have gone back & deleted my pics. i'll repost links only.

slightly NSFW: implied sexual positions, no explicit nudity (no genitalia) but otherwise nude with creative camera angles and image cropping. 2 images with small rear end cracks are labelled NSFW.

Zevran fell asleep outside

Zevran tumbles

Elusive Crow in its natural habitat

Zevran has a leg cramp

*Uncensored version of above*  NSFW

Zevran has a belly ache

Sleepytime Zevran

*Uncensored version of above*  NSFW

Modifié par Charsen, 11 avril 2010 - 11:31 .

[Aroihkin]

Minaleth wrote...

I am not sure is soldier vs. assassin comparison is really good one, but the fact he didn't have much choice only adds to me opinion - judging from Zevran's actions and backstory given the setting I think he is moral person, at least to my standards

Some soldiers didn't have a choice either, with the draft we used to have. And they certainly have no choice in their orders once they are one, era of the draft or not. I think it's a good comparison. But I don't think refusing to assign moral weight to one thing means being amoral in the rest of one's life.

I think he's pretty moral, outside of his old career. He could even change his views about it in hindsight, but that's a dangerous road to venture down and he probably knows it, being a smart guy. Wynne would love that, I'm sure, but I think the old bat runs off martyrdom.

It's actually kind of interesting, how well-adjusted Zev is. Being amoral about that one part of his life explains a lot.

UnDutchable wrote...

The line about Zevran resisting Crow training is from his codex entry, if I recall correctly.
I was actually pleasantly surprised by Zevran's amoralism. The cliché of the assassin who regrets every kill he's ever made really annoys me, since it usually leads to a lot of guilt-tripping and "fix me!"-relationships. I understand why the cliché exists, my grandfather regretted what he did as a soldier his entire life, but it just bothers me because it pops up so often. As you said, Aroihkin, Zevran's attitude towards his job is a rather healthy one, and the Crow recruits who couldn't make peace with what they had to do were probably "weeded out" quite early in their training.

Agreed! He sort of pokes fun at that, even, in one of his banters with Wynne. He's actively and knowingly refusing to go that route, even in hindsight, and probably for damn good reason. Who knows how many fellow trainees he saw hanging from the rafters when they couldn't take it anymore?
And is it in his Codex? Sweeeet. I'm totally not crazy! ...About that one thing!

[Sannox]

I agree that he's relatively well-adjusted. It's one of the things I love about the character. There's no wallowing in remorse or asking to be 'fixed'. Any fixing that needs to be done, he does by himself.



The Rinna story blew me away the first time I heard it - the awfulness of the story, but also the way he tells it. He's not looking for a way to make it right, because he knows he can't. He accepts the responsibility and the burden of it, and carries it himself.



I've thought about him managing to hold on to his mother's gloves. Somebody must have cared about him enough to keep those for him, and make sure they weren't stolen or taken by somebody else. I liked to think that he maybe did have some love and caring when he was very little, and that maybe helps to explain his loving nature despite everything.

[Sannox]

Charsen wrote...

i'm sorry Mina. i sometimes am a bit thoughtless. i have gone back & deleted my pics. i'll repost links only.

slightly NSFW: implied sexual positions, no explicit nudity (no genitalia) but otherwise nude with creative camera angles and image cropping. 2 images with small rear end cracks are labelled NSFW.

Zevran fell asleep outside

Zevran tumbles

Elusive Crow in its natural habitat

Zevran has a leg cramp

*Uncensored version of above*  NSFW

Zevran has a belly ache

Sleepytime Zevran

*Uncensored version of above*  NSFW

Thank you for these.  Very nice indeed.  Yet another page on this thread that I will have to bookmark!  A leg cramp?  If you say so.