35177 réponses à ce sujet

[UnDutchable]

Aroihkin wrote...

Minaleth wrote...

I am not sure is soldier vs. assassin comparison is really good one, but the fact he didn't have much choice only adds to me opinion - judging from Zevran's actions and backstory given the setting I think he is moral person, at least to my standards

Some soldiers didn't have a choice either, with the draft we used to have. And they certainly have no choice in their orders once they are one, era of the draft or not. I think it's a good comparison. But I don't think refusing to assign moral weight to one thing means being amoral in the rest of one's life.

I think he's pretty moral, outside of his old career. He could even change his views about it in hindsight, but that's a dangerous road to venture down and he probably knows it, being a smart guy. Wynne would love that, I'm sure, but I think the old bat runs off martyrdom.

It's actually kind of interesting, how well-adjusted Zev is. Being amoral about that one part of his life explains a lot.

UnDutchable wrote...

The line about Zevran resisting Crow training is from his codex entry, if I recall correctly.
I was actually pleasantly surprised by Zevran's amoralism. The cliché of the assassin who regrets every kill he's ever made really annoys me, since it usually leads to a lot of guilt-tripping and "fix me!"-relationships. I understand why the cliché exists, my grandfather regretted what he did as a soldier his entire life, but it just bothers me because it pops up so often. As you said, Aroihkin, Zevran's attitude towards his job is a rather healthy one, and the Crow recruits who couldn't make peace with what they had to do were probably "weeded out" quite early in their training.

Agreed! He sort of pokes fun at that, even, in one of his banters with Wynne. He's actively and knowingly refusing to go that route, even in hindsight, and probably for damn good reason. Who knows how many fellow trainees he saw hanging from the rafters when they couldn't take it anymore?
And is it in his Codex? Sweeeet. I'm totally not crazy! ...About that one thing!

Hmm, I don't have the game with me so I can't check the codex entry to be sure, but I know for a fact that his wiki entry says he resisted the Crow training. You're probably still crazy, though. Everyone in this thread is, and it's totally okay as long as you folks keep posting gay dwarf porn and naked sexy mens.

I really like how he told Wynne that feeling guilty, by itself, was rather pointless as it wouldn't solve anything. That's why the story about Rinna really struck something with me. When he first started telling it I thought: "Oh okay, this is the part where you compare me to your dead girlfriend and want me to fix you by loving you, right?" But nope, he doesn't really expect you to do anything for him. You can even tell him you think what he did to Rinna was utterly cruel, and he agrees with you. It caught me completely off guard.

And his voice when he says  "That I was nothing. That she was nothing." And the look on his face! Ye gods, I wanted to bash in some Crow master faces. Is there a "hug Zevran" mod? Because I think sometimes Zevran just deserves a hug.

Edit: Top of the page, tra la la.

Modifié par UnDutchable, 11 avril 2010 - 11:59 .

[Aroihkin]

Sannox wrote...

I agree that he's relatively well-adjusted. It's one of the things I love about the character. There's no wallowing in remorse or asking to be 'fixed'. Any fixing that needs to be done, he does by himself.

The Rinna story blew me away the first time I heard it - the awfulness of the story, but also the way he tells it. He's not looking for a way to make it right, because he knows he can't. He accepts the responsibility and the burden of it, and carries it himself.

I've thought about him managing to hold on to his mother's gloves. Somebody must have cared about him enough to keep those for him, and make sure they weren't stolen or taken by somebody else. I liked to think that he maybe did have some love and caring when he was very little, and that maybe helps to explain his loving nature despite everything.

Well, he (and all the other kids, motherless or not) were raised communally by the ****s. His Dalish mother was one of them for at least long enough to get pregnant and have a kid, perhaps one of them was a friend of hers, or at least sympathetic enough to her to make sure her son ended up with a memento? She can't have been the first or only one they knew to die in childbirth, in that kind of setting.

He claims he was fairly happy back then, IIRC, so it's not like the women hated the kids. The kids themselves were beaten now and then, but that's no worse than what the women themselves went through. A beating was probably pretty standard for everyone who worked there.

Although I'd argue that a loving nature doesn't need to be brought about by example, else everyone with a severely messed up family wouldn't be capable of such a thing. And he's messed up about it enough to not recognise it when he feels it, and to be unnerved by it. I doubt that's just the Rinna incident at work.

[Minaleth]

Charsen wrote...
i'm sorry Mina. i sometimes am a bit thoughtless. i have gone back & deleted my pics. i'll repost links only.

Thank you, you are too adorable <3 You know, I wouldn't mind myself, but my BF was lurking around and has gone all "WTF, I need to check your online friends, woman!" LOL 

[Sabriana]

Sorry for running off like that last evening, but I had to pick up my kid. He had a car accident. He's fine, not a scratch on him, but I was ripe for the psych ward after getting the phone call.

But he's fine. He was even whining about spilling pepsi on his favorite pants.
The viewing for the car is at Schneider's funeral and wrecking yard. Time: 4 to 7 PM
Followed by the funeral.

I've been playing a bit to relax my nerves. Yes, I'm still jumpy. I come here to great pictures, great posts, funny posts, and I feel better. The thread is coming through for me, works everytime.

I've been replaying the gate scene with my mage. Poor mage. I imagined this conversation:

Benevolent Overseer Sabriana (henceforth denoted as "BOS"): "We  have to replay the gate scene."

Blood Mage Katherine: "Why? What was wrong with it?"

BOS: "I...ah..., I wish to put you into different armor, and see how it looks."

Katherine: "But it was such a sad scene for Zevran and me"

BOS: "Yes. *sigh*. But it has to be done."

Katherine: "Fine." Wanders off grumbling.

Cue in the gates, Take Two.

BOS: "That was nice. We will have to play it again, however."

Katherine: "WHAT? Why? No. I refuse. It is far too emotional for the two of us."

BOS: "What are you yammering on about? You won't even remember."

Katherine: "I do so remember. Because it is emotional. And heart-wrenching. And..."

BOS: "Hush, my dear.Nevertheless, we shall do it again. The lighting was all wrong. I need to fine-tune
the graphics."

Katherine: "The..graphics? What's that?

BOS: "Nothing you need to concern yourself with,dear. But it IS important, trust me."

Katherine: "FINE! But you had better get it right this time."

BOS: "Are you threatening me, young lady? I wouldn't were I you."

Katherine: "ALRIGHT ALREADY." *Shoots an angry glare at the monitor and walks off to find Zevran.*

Cue in the gates, Take Three.

BOS: "We almost have it perfectly. I think we are really close to perfection here."

Katherine: "Oh no. Does that mean you're going to put Zevran and me trough the emotional ringer again?"

BOS: "Now, now. No reason to get overly dramatic here. Besides, I know you like it too, and don't try
to deny it. I know EVERYTHING about you. And Zevran. Everyone, actually.

Katherine: "Well, yeah. I like it, but it is emotionally draining. I won't do it again.

BOS: "What's this? A revolt? I'd think twice about that. I'll punish you in a heartbeat."

Katherine: "Punish me? How? I just want to get on with it and fight the archdemon...."

BOS: "I know dear. You will. And then you can get Gwaren, and live gloriously with Zevran and the
kids."

Katherine: "Gwaren? Kids? What kids?"

BOS: "Nevermind. Just go get your lover and lets do this again."

Katherine: "NO! No. I. Won't."

BOS: "I'll punish you. I'll reload a much earlier save and make you do everything all over again. You
won't even remember anything. Your memory will be wiped out up to that point. How about them apples?"

Katherine: "If I don't remember anything, how can that be punishment?"

BOS: *Ponders* "I'll make Leliana fall in love with you, muahahahah."

Katherine: *Faints*

Zevran: "Amora! What happened?"

BOS: "She fainted, that's all. She'll be alright, my lovely."

Zevran: *Looks around, puzzled* "Who said that?"

BOS: "I did. I'm your Benevolent Overseer. I guide you all, I know all, and I decide all your fates."

Zevran: "And you decided Katherine should faint? How odd. Why did she faint?"

BOS: "I ordered her to do the gate scene with  you again, she refused, I threatened punishment, she
fainted."

Zevran: "I don't believe you. She is strong, and exiting, and...."

BOS: "I know all that, dear. I heard you say it to her. I hear and see everything."

Zevran: "You hear and see EVERYTHING? *Raises eyebrow, and smiles lasciviously* Well, well, how strange
that sounds. And a bit exciting. But what made her faint?"

BOS: *Fans self, then recovers* "I told her I'd make Leliana fall in love with her."

Zevran: *Pales* "You..., you wouldn't do that. Surely.

BOS: "Oh? Wouldn't I? All she has to do to avoid that is to obey me and do the gate scene.

Zevran: "Again? I'm game. But what will the other's think?"

BOS: "Leave that to me, my handsome elf. Just go get your girl off the ground and get ready for
reload."

Cue in the gates. Take Four.

[Ramante]

Good thing your son is all right.
Understandable that you are all nerves even hours after it happened.

Sabriana that's terrible. xD
And you are at the City Gates? Wow, my mages are still in the Landsmeet crap. I haven't played them much lately (started 2 new playthroughs). I was a little bored with playing as a mage (read: it was the most boring thing ever).
Started a male playthrough (again) Dalish Elf, is going to be a archer with bard/ranger spec.
Have also a female City Elf DW warrior, who's specs I haven't decided.
I must say it is much more fun than the whole magic act. But my mages will get the city gate kisses, (at least 10 times, beat that BOS!)

Edit: why is my profile uploading non-existing characters? o.o'
*has removed 3 characters last 2 days*
At least the game is working.

Modifié par Ramante, 11 avril 2010 - 12:35 .

[Aroihkin]

UnDutchable wrote...

Aroihkin wrote...

Minaleth wrote...

I am not sure is soldier vs. assassin comparison is really good one, but the fact he didn't have much choice only adds to me opinion - judging from Zevran's actions and backstory given the setting I think he is moral person, at least to my standards

Some soldiers didn't have a choice either, with the draft we used to have. And they certainly have no choice in their orders once they are one, era of the draft or not. I think it's a good comparison. But I don't think refusing to assign moral weight to one thing means being amoral in the rest of one's life.

I think he's pretty moral, outside of his old career. He could even change his views about it in hindsight, but that's a dangerous road to venture down and he probably knows it, being a smart guy. Wynne would love that, I'm sure, but I think the old bat runs off martyrdom.

It's actually kind of interesting, how well-adjusted Zev is. Being amoral about that one part of his life explains a lot.

UnDutchable wrote...

The line about Zevran resisting Crow training is from his codex entry, if I recall correctly.
I was actually pleasantly surprised by Zevran's amoralism. The cliché of the assassin who regrets every kill he's ever made really annoys me, since it usually leads to a lot of guilt-tripping and "fix me!"-relationships. I understand why the cliché exists, my grandfather regretted what he did as a soldier his entire life, but it just bothers me because it pops up so often. As you said, Aroihkin, Zevran's attitude towards his job is a rather healthy one, and the Crow recruits who couldn't make peace with what they had to do were probably "weeded out" quite early in their training.

Agreed! He sort of pokes fun at that, even, in one of his banters with Wynne. He's actively and knowingly refusing to go that route, even in hindsight, and probably for damn good reason. Who knows how many fellow trainees he saw hanging from the rafters when they couldn't take it anymore?
And is it in his Codex? Sweeeet. I'm totally not crazy! ...About that one thing!

Hmm, I don't have the game with me so I can't check the codex entry to be sure, but I know for a fact that his wiki entry says he resisted the Crow training. You're probably still crazy, though. Everyone in this thread is, and it's totally okay as long as you folks keep posting gay dwarf porn and naked sexy mens.

I really like how he told Wynne that feeling guilty, by itself, was rather pointless as it wouldn't solve anything. That's why the story about Rinna really struck something with me. When he first started telling it I thought: "Oh okay, this is the part where you compare me to your dead girlfriend and want me to fix you by loving you, right?" But nope, he doesn't really expect you to do anything for him. You can even tell him you think what he did to Rinna was utterly cruel, and he agrees with you. It caught me completely off guard.

And his voice when he says  "That I was nothing. That she was nothing." And the look on his face! Ye gods, I wanted to bash in some Crow master faces. Is there a "hug Zevran" mod? Because I think sometimes Zevran just deserves a hug.

Oh, I'm plenty crazy! That isn't in question! But I try to use it for good instead of just letting it go to waste!

Re Rinna, yeah, it is sort of a confession, as he admits at the start if you take that response option. But confessing doesn't mean wanting to be "fixed", of course, and he's telling you because you asked about it and he's comfortable enough with you to tell you about it.

You kind of are helping him in the long run, if you stick with him and don't do the Sacrifice ending... even as a friend. But that's normal, really, and he neither asks for it nor expects it.

And yeah, poor guy. No wonder he responds so well to being called a friend -- not only was that sort of thing discouraged in his previous life, but it means he's not nothing to someone, at least. Even if you're not in a romance. That sheds some light on his intense loyalty, certainly.

[Aroihkin]

Sabriana wrote...

Sorry for running off like that last evening, but I had to pick up my kid. He had a car accident. He's fine, not a scratch on him, but I was ripe for the psych ward after getting the phone call.

But he's fine. He was even whining about spilling pepsi on his favorite pants.
The viewing for the car is at Schneider's funeral and wrecking yard. Time: 4 to 7 PM
Followed by the funeral.

I've been playing a bit to relax my nerves. Yes, I'm still jumpy. I come here to great pictures, great posts, funny posts, and I feel better. The thread is coming through for me, works everytime.

I've been replaying the gate scene with my mage. Poor mage. I imagined this conversation:

*snip for quote length, lol*

Wow, glad your kid's alright!

[TheComfyCat]

lol Sabriana! (or should I say BOS?)

But it's very good to hear that your son's is okay. Car accidents are definitely scary for a while afterward. Charsen's screenshots are good stress relief, though (for us and Zev in this case...)

[Sannox]

I don't think an loving nature is brought about example, entirely, but I do think that a complete lack of love and caring in early childhood can affect development. It looks like Zevran did have something to go on - not enough to keep from being sold into slavery, but enough for somebody to encourage him to treasure those gloves and tell him about his mother years after her death, and to make sure the gloves went with him when he was sold. All of the Crows that we know about seem to fall in love despite themselves (Zevran, Rinna, arguably Taliesin).



I'm never quite sure about the ratio of 'happy enough existence' to 'occasional beating' because Zevran tends to play down the awful things so much. So the gloves are a bigger clue, for me.

[Sannox]

I'm sorry you had such a scare with your son, Sabriana. It must have been horrible hearing about it, even if he was OK. I remember when my son was involved in a car incident - completely unhurt, but I was hysterical. I still get chills thinking about it. *Hugs*

[Aroihkin]

Sannox wrote...

I don't think an loving nature is brought about example, entirely, but I do think that a complete lack of love and caring in early childhood can affect development. It looks like Zevran did have something to go on - not enough to keep from being sold into slavery, but enough for somebody to encourage him to treasure those gloves and tell him about his mother years after her death, and to make sure the gloves went with him when he was sold. All of the Crows that we know about seem to fall in love despite themselves (Zevran, Rinna, arguably Taliesin).

I'm never quite sure about the ratio of 'happy enough existence' to 'occasional beating' because Zevran tends to play down the awful things so much. So the gloves are a bigger clue, for me.

True enough about 'happy enough' vs 'occasional'. There's just no telling with him, sometimes...

[ejoslin]

Wow, go to sleep for a few hours and look what I miss! BEAUTIFUL pictures, Charsen.  But /cry!  *grin*

Hmmmm, I would consider Zevran amoral. NOT immoral. As he says, he takes whatever situations he's in and makes the best of it.

I do wonder how happy his childhood, before age 7, really was. Not only the comments about the occasional beating, but in a few conversations he says he learned about sex in the ****house. Which he left at age 7. He learned massage techniques there, etc. etc. He sounds a bit bitter when it calls it "a happy enough existence, aside from the occasional beating."

Hmmm, I need more coffee before I talk about this more.

Edit: Yikes, Sabriana.  I'm glad your son is ok!

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 avril 2010 - 12:40 .

[TheComfyCat]

I wondered as well about his time at the ****house.... Like, how exactly was he expected to earn his keep? And why does he have skills learned from ****s when he was supposed to have left at such an early age? These things surely must have impacted his feelings on sex, sexuality, and love (which he, of course, points out after refusing to go to the tent).

Meh.. need coffee..

Modifié par senorfuzzylips, 11 avril 2010 - 12:45 .

[Aroihkin]

ejoslin wrote...
Wow, go to sleep for a few hours and look what I miss! BEAUTIFUL pictures, Charsen.  But /cry!  *grin*

Hmmmm, I would consider Zevran amoral. NOT immoral. As he says, he takes whatever situations he's in and makes the best of it.

True, though I don't think he's amoral about all things. He has a set of ethics about some things, like not selling others into slavery, and not being a fan of slaughter. Though that isn't him applying society's morality to it, even then, so I suppose you could call it either way even then. Does it count if it's your own unique moral code you care about?

ejoslin wrote...
I do wonder how happy his childhood, before age 7, really was. Not only the comments about the occasional beating, but in a few conversations he says he learned about sex in the ****house. Which he left at age 7. He learned massage techniques there, etc. etc. He sounds a bit bitter when it calls it "a happy enough existence, aside from the occasional beating."

Hmmm, I need more coffee before I talk about this more.

Edit: Yikes, Sabriana.  I'm glad your son is ok!

Very true. I'd sort of dismissed the learning about sex thing as a goof in the timeline, or just being a matter of living around it, and being raised by those for who it was a profession. But it's quite possible there's darker things being referenced there.

And I heard that as bitter as well, but again... there's those gloves. I think the whole thing could be translated any number of ways, though I agree that I don't think he had much of a "loving" childhood by any stretch of the imagination.

Edit: It's also generally my first inclination to latch onto the darker clues when stuff like that crops up in a character's background, so I try to lean away from immedately thinking it these days. Possibly leaning too far, though, if it set off other people's radar as well.

Modifié par Aroihkin, 11 avril 2010 - 12:55 .

[UnDutchable]

If it was a high-class *****house the kids, if pretty and intelligent enough, could have been trained to work when they reached their teens - for courtesans and the like, who needed to know a lot more than just how to have sex, training in all kinds of arts was necessary from an early age. But considering Zev's mother had to sell herself to buy off the woodcutter's debts, and considering she was an elf, who probably wouldn't be able to end up at a nobleman's side in public like a courtesan could, I'm guessing the *****house wasn't high class at all. The kids probably earned their keep by stealing and helping out in the *****house by cleaning, until they got old enough to get in the way too much.

I think it depends on who was running the *****house, though. If the women themselves managed it, the kids were probably fine up to a certain age. But if there was a pimp involved... well, historically they don't really care about the well-being of their "merchandise", so there's a chance the kids would have "worked" the same way as the women.

... Actually, what disturbed me the most about what Zevran reveals from his childhood is that he only ever refers to the boys who were living in the *****house with him. Were there no girl children?

[TheComfyCat]

Aroihkin wrote...

*snip*

Edit: It's also generally my first inclination to latch onto the darker clues when stuff like that crops up in a character's background, so I try to lean away from immedately thinking it these days. Possibly leaning too far, though, if it set off other people's radar as well.

Especially since in Zevran's case, he tries to make light of his past or gloss over things entirely. (like that line, which I'm just paraphrasing here, where he lies and says re: torture.. "oh none of those things ever happened to me"). But I'm wary of thinking things were darker than they really were. I mean, living in a ****house means he would necessarily be exposed to sex, but how much farther did it go? Are we given enough to really determine..?

[Creature 1]

Aroihkin wrote...
Very true. I'd sort of dismissed the learning about sex thing as a goof in the timeline, or just being a matter of living around it, and being raised by those for who it was a profession. But it's quite possible there's darker things being referenced there.

And I heard that as bitter as well, but again... there's those gloves. I think the whole thing could be translated any number of ways, though I agree that I don't think he had much of a "loving" childhood by any stretch of the imagination.

Edit: It's also generally my first inclination to latch onto the darker clues when stuff like that crops up in a character's background, so I try to lean away from immedately thinking it these days. Possibly leaning too far, though, if it set off other people's radar as well.

Cute orphan elf kid + ****house == $$$

A few centuries ago sometimes people would purposefully cripple a child so he'd bring in more money as a beggar.  I think Thedas would be similarly brutal.  Even if some of the people at the ****house were "nice", they'd probably consider selling sex a fact of life, and something you just have to get used to if you don't want to starve--even for children.  For an orphan it's either that or begging on the streets. 

[Aroihkin]

UnDutchable wrote...

If it was a high-class *****house the kids, if pretty and intelligent enough, could have been trained to work when they reached their teens - for courtesans and the like, who needed to know a lot more than just how to have sex, training in all kinds of arts was necessary from an early age. But considering Zev's mother had to sell herself to buy off the woodcutter's debts, and considering she was an elf, who probably wouldn't be able to end up at a nobleman's side in public like a courtesan could, I'm guessing the *****house wasn't high class at all. The kids probably earned their keep by stealing and helping out in the *****house by cleaning, until they got old enough to get in the way too much.
I think it depends on who was running the *****house, though. If the women themselves managed it, the kids were probably fine up to a certain age. But if there was a pimp involved... well, historically they don't really care about the well-being of their "merchandise", so there's a chance the kids would have "worked" the same way as the women.
... Actually, what disturbed me the most about what Zevran reveals from his childhood is that he only ever refers to the boys who were living in the *****house with him. Were there no girl children?

Yeah. And ...yeah about the last bit especially. He also refers, in a very dark tone, to "what happened to the other ****house boys who didn't fetch a decent price with the Crows". Makes one wonder where they went, or to who, if going to the Crows was the preferred result.

[TripLight]

*walks in with a slight hangover and a cup of coffee* Good Morning.



I'm glad your son's alright Sabriana, and LMAO at the BOS!

[Sannox]

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmmm, I would consider Zevran amoral. NOT immoral. As he says, he takes whatever situations he's in and makes the best of it.

I don't think making the best of situations is amoral (I don't mean to imply that that's what you're saying).   If he truly is amoral, though, how do you explain the number of occasions when morality comes up for him?   Spitting on Rinna for betraying the Crows, for instance.  I do think that unknown to himself, there was more going on there*, but he seems to have felt that her imagined betrayal was wrong, morally wrong.  He later says that he was taught that what he feels is wrong, and he struggles with that.  Then there are the things he comments on, the Dalish, the slaves, Ruck, etc.  I think the conversation where he forces the warden to choose shows morality too, although I know that's up for debate.  A lot of what he says seems to involve morals, whether they are the same morals as others or not. 


*I think there's a lot more going on there, so it's probably a really bad example.   He 'readily agreed' that she should pay the price - why so readily?  He doesn't seem happy about somebody breaking through his barriers, when he has tried to close off his heart.  He 'didn't care to know' that she might be innocent.   He chose to believe she was guilty, and punished her in the most extreme way.   That's why it's such a deeply awful, story, I think.   Although it's obvious how his life experiences led him to act that way what he did was completely terrible.  He did what he did to her because he didn't want to face his own feelings, basically.  

So it is a rubbish example to use, but I think he still believed that what he wanted to believe she'd done was wrong - his morality was off, but it wasn't amorality. 

[ejoslin]

As far as Zevran being amoral, Zevran is a survivalist. His compassion is surprising, and is for the helpless. He even refers to asking for forgiveness for his sins every chance he gets. So he has a conscious for sure. He's not a sociopath by any stretch of the imagination. But I also get that he doesn't live by a strong sense of "right and wrong." He does what is needed. Would he kill an innocent if he had to? He would feel bad about it, but yes, I think he would.



He doesn't make it his mission in life to save the world though he's proud and amazed to be part of such a thing. But his motive, even there, is the warden.



The wh*rehouse -- I believe that the children there were taught and used that way. Certainly what they can get when selling a child into slavery wouldn't pay enough for their upbringing, so there'd be no real reason to keep the children as long as they do unless they had another purpose.



The gloves I think were given to him by a wh*re. The wh*res there probably had as much choice to be there as the children, but there was probably bonding there as well.



Ok, I need more coffee. I'm rambling.

[Aroihkin]

senorfuzzylips wrote...

Aroihkin wrote...

*snip*

Edit: It's also generally my first inclination to latch onto the darker clues when stuff like that crops up in a character's background, so I try to lean away from immedately thinking it these days. Possibly leaning too far, though, if it set off other people's radar as well.

Especially since in Zevran's case, he tries to make light of his past or gloss over things entirely. (like that line, which I'm just paraphrasing here, where he lies and says re: torture.. "oh none of those things ever happened to me"). But I'm wary of thinking things were darker than they really were. I mean, living in a ****house means he would necessarily be exposed to sex, but how much farther did it go? Are we given enough to really determine..?

*nods* I poked at that line about torture in the fic I write, since we see him getting tortured in the Fade.

I try not to immediately latch onto the darkest possible explanations, but I don't discredit them. If anything, it's just me trying to counter my natural cynicism. My mother essentially sold me to my aunt who... is not a nice person, to put it as mildly as possible, and my half-sister murdered my father with an axe. I was screwed with enough, growing up, that the stress permanently ramped up my immune system, shortening my life expectancy and forcing me to live in a chemical-free and low-light environment. My existing family basically managed to murder me with a time delay.

So I'm fully aware that I'm biased towards the darker end of the spectrum. I'm a cynical, cynical bastard. And crazy, to boot.

But, sometimes, that's still the accurate way to look at things.

[Creature 1]

ejoslin wrote...

The gloves I think were given to him by a wh*re. The wh*res there probably had as much choice to be there as the children, but there was probably bonding there as well.

He grew up in Antiva, and from what I've read it seems to have been pretty sexist.  Ferelden is no beacon of enlightenment, but it seems women are permitted to go into any career they desire and are capable of executing there.  In Antiva per Word of God (Gaider) women aren't permitted to go into combat, which suggests they aren't permitted to take jobs such as the guard or join the military.  I assume it was at least like a century or two ago, where it was considered improper for women to travel without a male escort, and possibly even more strict.  In my mind women in the Crows in Antiva were in an unusual position of near-equality with the men. 

[Aroihkin]

ejoslin wrote...
As far as Zevran being amoral, Zevran is a survivalist. His compassion is surprising, and is for the helpless. He even refers to asking for forgiveness for his sins every chance he gets. So he has a conscious for sure. He's not a sociopath by any stretch of the imagination. But I also get that he doesn't live by a strong sense of "right and wrong." He does what is needed. Would he kill an innocent if he had to? He would feel bad about it, but yes, I think he would.

He doesn't make it his mission in life to save the world though he's proud and amazed to be part of such a thing. But his motive, even there, is the warden.

He's said as much, about killing kids and bystanders. He's done it, though he tries to avoid it. It's regrettable, but it happens.

ejoslin wrote...
The wh*rehouse -- I believe that the children there were taught and used that way. Certainly what they can get when selling a child into slavery wouldn't pay enough for their upbringing, so there'd be no real reason to keep the children as long as they do unless they had another purpose.

The gloves I think were given to him by a wh*re. The wh*res there probably had as much choice to be there as the children, but there was probably bonding there as well.

Ok, I need more coffee. I'm rambling.

Yeah, I'm convinced. I tried not to go that route with my theories, but if others are seeing it so consistently then it's not just my crazy coloring it. Poor kid :/ no wonder he's a master at dealing the way he does, essentially ignoring it all until it goes away. Which he says to the Warden, at one point, when you say that it sounds like he's been through a lot. It's actually one of my favorite lines of his.

[Sannox]

I've wondered if he 'worked' in the ****house, but he does say something about never having taken his clothes off for business. Maybe I just prefer to believe it never happened, because it's just too awful a thing to add to everything else.

There's also the fact that sex, above all things, seems to have retained its purity and joy for him. That could have happened even if he'd been sexually abused, but it would be harder for him, maybe, to hang on to it as something good.

But he does say he learned skills in the ****house. When I wrote my silly story I left out the bit about growing up, because it's disturbing. My wardens can't take it that way either ('I'll show the sexual skills that I learned before I was seven'). So in my own mind, I've imagined that ****houses played a part throughout his life. He does talk about men and women being supplied to the Crows, as if sex workers were brought in to entertain them, or they were respected guests at an establishment. I like to imagine that maybe he was exposed to sexual activity (seeing the women get ready for customers, etc.) at very young age, but not involved in sex until later, when he was a willing participant.

But like I say, that's wishful thinking on my part, and there is some other things he says that could contradict his assertion that he has been strictly an amateur.

I get uncomfortable about the word '****' too. I know 'sex worker' maybe doesn't fit with the setting, and presumably '****' helps to show their lower status. But when he uses it about his mother, I want to say 'You don't need to say that'. I try to think he's reclaming it - that his attitude is 'don't you dare disapprove'. But it's another thing that makes me uncomfortable.

ETA: It obviously makes the forum uncomfortable too, because it has been censored!   But you know what I mean - the word he uses to describe his mother's profession.

Modifié par Sannox, 11 avril 2010 - 01:29 .