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[Sabriana]

He doesn't sound mocking, he doesn't sound sarcastic, and he certainly doesn't sound greedy.

What he *does* sound like is practical and trying to be reasonable. I'll be sending Jon Curry a buquet of flowers with a "thank you" note. He seems to have grasped Zevran far better then some other people did.

A lot of stuff was changed in the game, changes that are not reflected in the toolset (think ages for NPCs). This has to be one of them. Or Jon Curry is a lousy VA, and he isn't that.


Edited because of topping:

Modifié par Sabriana, 11 avril 2010 - 02:28 .

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

I usually go by the VO comments, because they make sense and/or because it's come through in the game. This one doesn't make any sense at all. He doesn't sound mocking at all. Jon Curry seems to agree that Zevran wouldn't act like that and put his own spin on things. And he was right.
It makes zero sense for Zevran wanting the anvil for himself. For what purpose? He could never utilize it any which way you look at it. It's simply a stupid comment, and Jon Curry seems to have agreed, bless his hear.

Keep in mind it's how his voice is supposed to sound, not what is actually intended.  There are a lot of things in there that the voice is one thing, the facial animations are another and combined make a completely different emotion.

Just for instance, he's supposed to sound indifferent when talking about his mother -- a few comments he's supposed to sound bitter, but for the most part, he's supposed to sound indifferent, he's just telling a story.  But you add in the facial expressions, it takes on a lot of meaning, and HAD he sounded bitter the whole way through, it would have come off as whining, and not nearly as powerful.

Another, the poetry reading, he's supposed to sound very romantic.  Well, obviously, it does not come off that way, but had his voice sounded joking combined with that playful facial expression, it would have made the whole thing very silly. 

[Aroihkin]

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmmm, if Zevran does take over the crows, it's tragic. But if it happens as a friendwarden, it seems like it's just another situation he found himself in -- he's not happy with it, but it is what it is. If he was in love though, it's horrible. What was good there no longer is -- his love of life, his love of pleasure, his compassion, all gone.

I really liked what DG said about Zevran, because obviously, it fit with what I believe about him. I don't think he was meant to be an assassin with a heart of gold -- his beliefs just, to me, don't seem to jibe with that. His compassion seems to be really only for the helpless. He doesn't seem to have compassion for the weak at all.

Whether he believes slavery is morally wrong, or morality enters into what he allowed to happen to Rinna, I can't say. I don't think so, but there's not enough information there. He obviously had deep feelings for Rinna and he thinks what he did to her was terrible, but I'm not sure he thinks that on a moral level.

A lot of that is open to interpretation.

This is also very true, about his lack of compassion for the weak but not-helpless. He thinks alienage elves need to grow a spine or shut up, which I kind of agree with after climbing around in CE!Alley's head and finding her own reasons for thinking much the same way. He also has no patience for Harrowmont and Harrowmont's easily-blackmailed Proving fighters.

I think I've stepped into the amoral-overall camp, haha. Mostly because I was interpreting things like the  CE slaves and such as morality, but it makes much more sense as simply compassion for the helpless. It's not like he cares much about alienage elves' plight as a whole when they're not locked in cages and about to be shipped off to the Tevinters.

[Sabriana]

I guess I'm getting very sensitive where Zevran is concerned. Poor guy has so much working against him already. If the VO programmer wrote that in, Jon Curry certainly didn't follow directions, thank goodness.

I bet that VO director wrote Zevran in the DLCs [/being bitter]

[Minaleth]

Aroihkin wrote...
... taking over the Crows: Why not? Someone has to run them, it may as well be someone who will look for ways to change the current system. After the Warden dies to the Ultimate Sacrifice, I don't think he cares anyway, and is probably just waiting for someone to manage to take him out. If you mean the Awakening ending where your Warden might take over the Crows with him, I like to think that various policies are made to change.

Exactly my thoughts. In each of the three points.

[Aroihkin]

Since Zevran could hardly personally make use of the Anvil if it was kept, since it would be under Dwarven control, I always interpreted that as him wanting it for their side. As in against the darkspawn. Not so much to take for himself and make an army of golems with which to... I don't know, steal panties? He's the first to admit a lack of personal ambition, which doesn't seem contradicted. I couldn't see him trying to take over the world.

[ejoslin]

Oh, I agree. He doesn't want the anvil for himself. I just found the VO notes interesting. Both Zevran and Morrigan were referred to as "bad" characters, and his voice is supposed to sound greedy. I love the effect of the voice and the animations together to have yet a different meaning -- whoever came up with this stuff is incredibly talented.

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 avril 2010 - 02:42 .

[Minaleth]

@ anvil VO comment *shugs* I never took them to serious anyway. Me thinks he is being practical - more golems = better chances to end the blight = better chance to survive => alive Warden + Zevran doing some tent activities ... *grin* something like that.

[Aroihkin]

Though one has to admit, Zevran's army of panty-stealing golems is an amusing mental image.

"Today, we steal only the pink ones!" *clunk thump STOMP STOMP*

Modifié par Aroihkin, 11 avril 2010 - 02:46 .

[TripLight]

Aroihkin wrote...

Though one has to admit, Zevran's army of panty-stealing golems is an amusing mental image.
"Today, we steal only the pink ones!"

Oh god, just the image of Zevran standing at the head of a group of Golems, with the control rod raised straight up, ready to raid underware drawers is going to be the death of me, LOL.

[Aroihkin]

TripLight wrote...

Aroihkin wrote...

Though one has to admit, Zevran's army of panty-stealing golems is an amusing mental image.
"Today, we steal only the pink ones!"

Oh god, just the image of Zevran standing at the head of a group of Golems, with the control rod raised straight up, ready to raid underware drawers is going to be the death of me, LOL.

I was picturing him perched on one of their shoulders! But otherwise, yes. Yes indeed.

...I've been up all night. Does it show?

[ejoslin]

Truthfully, I always saw Zevran as more to get the panties directly off the owner of said panties. I see Cullen as more the panty stealing type! (duck and run)

Edit: Though the golem army does give the whole idea a new light!

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 avril 2010 - 02:50 .

[Aroihkin]

Maybe he steals them from their dressers so that they have to come looking for them, hm? A mass-hostage situation, if you will.

[Minaleth]

*dies laughing*

[Sabriana]

*dies laughing too*

[TanithAeyrs]

LOL, Zev holding panties hostage.



I usually lurk on this thread rather than post because I rarely have time to keep up with it. I did find the whole Zevran moral vs amoral discussion interesting - I agree it makes for lots of fun when writing FF (I love Immovable Object, Aroihkin). I will confess I think Zev leans to the amoral but he has his own sense of ethics ( I try to keep this in mind for my own FF). Zev will always land on the practical side of the argument.

[Sannox]

Aroihkin wrote...

I think we're just going into semantics at this point, amoral is a tough one for that it seems. :3
I'm cool with it either way, whether he's amoral all-over or only in the sense of his job. It's just a label, the character does what he does either way, and his motives could be painted in either color. It's damn interesting to try to figure out, though.
@Sannox: Re taking over the Crows: Why not? Someone has to run them, it may as well be someone who will look for ways to change the current system. After the Warden dies to the Ultimate Sacrifice, I don't think he cares anyway, and is probably just waiting for someone to manage to take him out. If you mean the Awakening ending where your Warden might take over the Crows with him, I like to think that various policies are made to change.

You see, if he felt compelled to change the system, I'd see that as being moral too - that it bothered him.  I agree about him not caring after the US - I suppose losing the warden, so soon after finally coming to believe in love, he defaults back to the Crows teaching.  In that case, he might not bother to change the Crows, although I'm still not sure where the ambition comes from.  It could be necessity (kill or be killed). 

Maybe it is just semantics, but I think if he has any sense of right and wrong, he's not truly amoral.  I think because he doesn't automatically give the message 'killing is wrong', he can come across as having no sense of right and wrong - because killing is probably the biggy that everybody 'knows' is wrong.  But he doesn't act amoral (for instance, why does he never kill bystanders 'on purpose' if he enjoys killing?).

I think it's actually pretty unusual for people to be amoral - morals are so tied up in humanity.    You can see even tiny children developing a strong sense of morality.  

Modifié par Sannox, 11 avril 2010 - 03:15 .

[Aroihkin]

TanithAeyrs wrote...

LOL, Zev holding panties hostage.

I usually lurk on this thread rather than post because I rarely have time to keep up with it. I did find the whole Zevran moral vs amoral discussion interesting - I agree it makes for lots of fun when writing FF (I love Immovable Object, Aroihkin). I will confess I think Zev leans to the amoral but he has his own sense of ethics ( I try to keep this in mind for my own FF). Zev will always land on the practical side of the argument.

It was a very interesting discussion, though I'm probably not nearly awake enough for it.  Still up from yesterday, lol.
(I saw your review on ffnet, glad you like it~<3)

Edit: Also, when he's holding panties hostage he can dangle them at their owners while standing on the golems. See? Harder to grab them from an elf on an eight-foot tall step-stool!

Modifié par Aroihkin, 11 avril 2010 - 03:16 .

[ejoslin]

Well, you don't know if he felt compelled to change the system. There's nothing that indicates that either way.

I'm using amoral in this sense of the word:

1. adjective: not involving questions of right or wrong; without moral quality; neither moral nor immoral.

I really don't think morality is a part of his beliefs. That doesn't mean he's bad, it doesn't mean he's immoral, it doesn't mean he's without compassion.

Edit: Besides, someone who would steal and hold panties hostage obviously ...  gah, I lost my train of thought here.

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 avril 2010 - 03:17 .

[Aroihkin]

Sannox wrote...

You see, if he felt compelled to change the system, I'd see that as being moral too - that it bothered him.  I agree about him not caring after the US - I suppose losing the warden, so soon after finally coming to believe in love, he defaults back to the Crows teaching.  In that case, he might not bother to change the Crows, although I'm still not sure where the ambition comes from.  It could be necessity (kill or be killed). 

Maybe it is just semantics, but I think if he has any sense of right and wrong, he's not truly amoral.  I think because he doesn't automatically give the message 'killing is wrong', he can come across as having no sense of right and wrong - because killing is probably the biggy that everybody 'knows' is wrong.  But he doesn't act amoral (for instance, why does he never kill bystanders 'on purpose' if he enjoys killing?).

I think it's actually pretty unusual for people to be amoral - morals are so tied up in humanity.    You can see even tiny children developing a strong sense of morality.  

I think in the case of the Sacrifice he flings himself at the Crows like he flung himself at the Wardens. He wins, however unexpected, and finds himself being offered leadership of the organization. What better way to get himself killed than to be the leader of the Crows?

The way I see it, he didn't find it acceptable to simply kill himself after Rinna, he wanted to "suicide by cop" on the Warden. Perhaps he still insists on going down with a fight even after the Warden is gone.

That's how I've always seen it in my head-canon anyway. If the Warden dies, he picks up where he left off -- trying to get killed -- but he's way more tough to kill now, and it backfires. I've been meaning to write it in fic-form, sometime, because I can see it as very darkly-emotional, though I doubt I'm making Alley do the Sacrifice. Martyrdom is not her style; I'd have to make Alistair absolutely refuse to do the Ritual for her to take the final blow, which she would do at that point. Letting someone else die in her stead would never be acceptable.

...Meh. My brains are lacking in tea.

Modifié par Aroihkin, 11 avril 2010 - 03:28 .

[ejoslin]

I think i need to quit rambling, because everyone says what I want to FAR better.



I agree with Aroihkin about throwing himself at the crows is just another way he's trying to die.



I think it's one of three times he actively is trying to die, and all three are glorious (channeling Cailin here). Once against the grey wardens, once against the archdemon (he DOES offer to die for the warden there), and once against the crows.

[Aroihkin]

ejoslin wrote...

I think i need to quit rambling, because everyone says what I want to FAR better.

I agree with Aroihkin about throwing himself at the crows is just another way he's trying to die.

I think it's one of three times he actively is trying to die, and all three are glorious (channeling Cailin here). Once against the grey wardens, once against the archdemon (he DOES offer to die for the warden there), and once against the crows.

Yeah, he reminds me of Priscilla Asagiri when she had her death-wish. She wanted to go out, but she wanted to go out in a bang. If it didn't leave one hell of a mark on the asphault, it wasn't worth it.

[Charsen]

drive-by kisses

[ejoslin]

I think I love you, Charsen.

Edit: I know I love that screenie! 

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 avril 2010 - 03:36 .

[Aroihkin]

Charsen wrote...

drive-by kisses