35177 réponses à ce sujet

[UnDutchable]

Yep, the discussion about whether Zevran is amoral or not seems to be stuck on two different definitions of amoralism.
Dictionary definition = lack of morals.
Philosphical definition = not believing in morals as objective truths
Everyone seems to agree that Zevran is a good person, though. :3

And hooray for drive-by kisses!

Edit: I'd post a sexy picture to celebrate the new page, but I don't have any. D:

Modifié par UnDutchable, 11 avril 2010 - 03:41 .

[Charsen]

here is one you can use

[ejoslin]

I guess I loan you mine!

 


Edit: Charsen ninjaed me, and his, while not BETTER, is awesome in its newness!

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 avril 2010 - 03:46 .

[Sannox]

ejoslin wrote...

Well, you don't know if he felt compelled to change the system. There's nothing that indicates that either way.

I think it might depend on his reasons for going back to the Crows.  

Suicide makes sense, I agree, but in the end it must have actually taken some effort to get to the top and stay alive.   So it's maybe not as straightforward as the Grey Warden contract.   Rinna was something he did himself, but the US was done to him.   Not that I'm making any particular point there.  

I'm using amoral in this sense of the word:

1. adjective: not involving questions of right or wrong; without moral quality; neither moral nor immoral.

I really don't think morality is a part of his beliefs. That doesn't mean he's bad, it doesn't mean he's immoral, it doesn't mean he's without compassion.

Edit: Besides, someone who would steal and hold panties hostage obviously ...  gah, I lost my train of thought here.

Yes, that's pretty much what I'm meaning by amoral - no right and wrong, rather than 'bad'.   I think he does have a sense of right and wrong and lives by it, even though it's subtle.   For instance, why does he try to avoid killing the bystanders?   It's not just practicality either, I don't think.   It feels wrong to kill indiscriminately to him, I think.  What about rape - would he that's morally neutral?   I get the impression he wouldn't.   It's difficult to separate compassion and morality, but normally, you wouldn't describe people as amoral just because they are compassionate.

[Minaleth]

:wub:Charsen is back with the kisses! 
In the linked one she looks a bit like ... dunno ... like she is thinking "I need you right now, right here!"

[TripLight]

Minaleth wrote...

:wub:Charsen is back with the kisses! 
In the linked one she looks a bit like ... dunno ... like she is thinking "I need you right now, right here!"

LIke I am not squeeing enough over that kiss<3.  Charsen:wub:.

[Charsen]

yes, i am a ninja and not adorable like mina said 

i'm just fixing some clipping with big noses currently, hope to have it done soon. haha, she does have something of a come hither look. can't quite blame her.

still, need tongues

[Sannox]

Minaleth wrote...

:wub:Charsen is back with the kisses! 
In the linked one she looks a bit like ... dunno ... like she is thinking "I need you right now, right here!"

Or as if he actually is right there, right now!  (Out of shot!).

[Aroihkin]

Charsen wrote...

yes, i am a ninja and not adorable like mina said 

i'm just fixing some clipping with big noses currently, hope to have it done soon. haha, she does have something of a come hither look. can't quite blame her.

still, need tongues

Alley's big busted nose thanks you for not making it stab Zev in the face. XD

Sannox wrote...

Minaleth wrote...

{smilie}Charsen is back with the kisses!{smilie}
In the linked one she looks a bit like ... dunno ... like she is thinking "I need you right now, right here!"

Or as if he actually is right there, right now!  (Out of shot!).

Yeah, my thought was "...What are his hands doing off-frame?" XD

[ejoslin]

Sannox wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Well, you don't know if he felt compelled to change the system. There's nothing that indicates that either way.

I think it might depend on his reasons for going back to the Crows.   

Suicide makes sense, I agree, but in the end it must have actually taken some effort to get to the top and stay alive.   So it's maybe not as straightforward as the Grey Warden contract.   Rinna was something he did himself, but the US was done to him.   Not that I'm making any particular point there.  

I'm using amoral in this sense of the word: 

1. adjective: not involving questions of right or wrong; without moral quality; neither moral nor immoral.

I really don't think morality is a part of his beliefs. That doesn't mean he's bad, it doesn't mean he's immoral, it doesn't mean he's without compassion.

Edit: Besides, someone who would steal and hold panties hostage obviously ...  gah, I lost my train of thought here.

Yes, that's pretty much what I'm meaning by amoral - no right and wrong, rather than 'bad'.   I think he does have a sense of right and wrong and lives by it, even though it's subtle.   For instance, why does he try to avoid killing the bystanders?   It's not just practicality either, I don't think.   It feels wrong to kill indiscriminately to him, I think.  What about rape - would he that's morally neutral?   I get the impression he wouldn't.   It's difficult to separate compassion and morality, but normally, you wouldn't describe people as amoral just because they are compassionate. 

Hmmmm, rape is a tricky one, and one that there have been huge flame wars about here because the line of consent can be a bit fuzzy when it's your assassin that you're having sex with (I hope I am NOT starting this up again -- my views are that Zevran is not a rapist, but there was a huge flamefest about it not that long ago). DG says he is not, and ultimately, I go by what his creator says.

I do want to say that I never said, nor meant to imply, that someone who is compassionate is amoral.

I think again, that we are arguing semantics. Here is my feeling of the difference between compassion and morality. I don't think Zevran was against the elves being sold because he had some sense that slavery was wrong. He at other points shows he has no real problem with slavery, though he certainly hated BEING a slave. I think he felt compassion for their helplessness and identified with them as an elven slave.

Edit: added quote for context because LOTS of posts between mine and what I was replying to!

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 avril 2010 - 04:05 .

[ejoslin]

Charsen wrote...

yes, i am a ninja and not adorable like mina said 

i'm just fixing some clipping with big noses currently, hope to have it done soon. haha, she does have something of a come hither look. can't quite blame her.

still, need tongues

Definitely, need tongues! 

[Sannox]

Aroihkin wrote...

Sannox wrote...

Minaleth wrote...

{smilie}Charsen is back with the kisses!{smilie}
In the linked one she looks a bit like ... dunno ... like she is thinking "I need you right now, right here!"

Or as if he actually is right there, right now!  (Out of shot!).

Yeah, my thought was "...What are his hands doing off-frame?" XD

It becomes a very sexy picture if you look at it that way.

(thinking about rushing my City Elf through the game for some groping at the Gates).

[Minaleth]

Charsen wrote...
yes, i am a ninja and not adorable like mina said 

It was like 8AM, I think it's forgivable Evil awesome crazy fits much better of course. 

Charsen wrote...
i'm just fixing some clipping with big noses currently, hope to have it done soon. haha, she does have something of a come hither look. can't quite blame her.

still, need tongues

Don't let us distract you, good work, go on... *nods to tongues*

[Charsen]

off screen his hands are petting kittens:innocent:

[Aroihkin]

Charsen wrote...

off screen his hands are petting kittens:innocent:

...I'll just bet.

[UnDutchable]

Charsen wrote...

off screen his hands are petting kittens:innocent:

Yeah, I bet Zev's really good with p*ssies.

... what? You were all thinking it!

[ejoslin]

UnDutchable wrote...

Charsen wrote...

off screen his hands are petting kittens:innocent:

Yeah, I bet Zev's really good with p*ssies.

... what? You were all thinking it!

I know *I* was :innocent:

[Aroihkin]

ejoslin wrote...

UnDutchable wrote...

Charsen wrote...

off screen his hands are petting kittens:innocent:

Yeah, I bet Zev's really good with p*ssies.

... what? You were all thinking it!

I know *I* was :innocent:

Thinking it? I said it, just way too subtly.

[UnDutchable]

Aroihkin wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

UnDutchable wrote...

Charsen wrote...

off screen his hands are petting kittens:innocent:

Yeah, I bet Zev's really good with p*ssies.

... what? You were all thinking it!

I know *I* was :innocent:

Thinking it? I said it, just way too subtly.

Your post didn't show up for me at first, but now I see that you indeed beat me to it! Great minds...

... We just went from a rather deep and serious discussion about morals to joking about Zevran's, er.... "skills". This thread is friggin' awesome. XD

[TripLight]

I come bearing Zevran Ogre Kill Shots:ph34r: Enjoy the view up his skirt.

[Charsen]

.....i feel dirty now



great shots of the ogre kill!

[Aroihkin]

UnDutchable wrote...

Aroihkin wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

UnDutchable wrote...

Charsen wrote...

off screen his hands are petting kittens:innocent:

Yeah, I bet Zev's really good with p*ssies.

... what? You were all thinking it!

I know *I* was :innocent:

Thinking it? I said it, just way too subtly.

Your post didn't show up for me at first, but now I see that you indeed beat me to it! Great minds...

... We just went from a rather deep and serious discussion about morals to joking about Zevran's, er.... "skills". This thread is friggin' awesome. XD

We're Zevran fans. A topic can only go so deep before it, ah, goes deep.

[Sannox]

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmmm, rape is a tricky one, and one that there have been huge flame wars about here because the line of consent can be a bit fuzzy when it's your assassin that you're having sex with (I hope I am NOT starting this up again -- my views are that Zevran is not a rapist, but there was a huge flamefest about it not that long ago). DG says he is not, and ultimately, I go by what his creator says.

I must have missed that, and I didn't realise there was a can of worms there.  I chose rape just because it's so obviously wrong to most people , even more so than killing.  It didn't occur to me that he might be a rapist, and I think the way he talks about sex discounts that idea.  Horrible thought.  I meant more in the general sense of would he think it was OK, or  would he feel that it was wrong.  My instinct tells me that he'd feel it was wrong.

I do want to say that I never said, nor meant to imply, that someone who is compassionate is amoral.

I think again, that we are arguing semantics. Here is my feeling of the difference between compassion and morality. I don't think Zevran was against the elves being sold because he had some sense that slavery was wrong. He at other points shows he has no real problem with slavery, though he certainly hated BEING a slave. I think he felt compassion for their helplessness and identified with them as an elven slave.

Thank you for the explanation.  It's my fault for following the argument in a roundabout way.   And what I meant to say really, was that you wouldn't normally think that compassion discounted morality - that you tend to assume people are moral, rather than amoral.   But with Zevran it seems that he tends to be assumed to be amoral and any seemingly moral impulses are explained away as compassion. 

I don't think he has to subscribe to all slavery being wrong to be moral, but if any sort of slavery feels wrong, then he has a moral sense.  He's not amoral.  In fact, if anything feels wrong to him, he's not amoral really.

With the slaves, I don't feel he's saying 'Let's by nice to these poor people' - he says something about looking in their eyes, and it seems to be addresed to the wardens sense of morality - can the warden really do that without feeling guilt?  It's difficut because I think the compassion and morality often go together - I think he feels both.

Why feel any more compassion for a bystander than a mark - why spare one and not the other?  I think because he does believe it's wrong to kill indiscriminately.   He has a reason to kill the mark, but doesn't need to kill the bystander, so he tries to avoid it. 

[Charsen]

creepy ass outtake...







forgot to attach the scene to the dialog XD

about to hit testing phase

[Aroihkin]

Charsen wrote...

creepy ass outtake...



forgot to attach the scene to the dialog XD
about to hit testing phase

O___O;