35177 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

My HNF always agreed with the sentiment of, "Some people just need killing." So did, actually, every one of my characters, though my city elf and my HNF felt that the most strongly. My casteless already was a thug who would kill on command (the origin story doesn't have to played that way, but mine sure was).

[ejoslin]

On a different topic, kind of, it was stated here awhile ago that quite a few felt that they were a notch in Zevran's bedpost at the beginning of the relationship, or didn't start one because they didn't want to become one. I have never felt the warden was just another notch, though. It certainly doesn't have much to do with their conversations, because until the final one, they can be taken as pretty cold. But the whole approval rating always made me think that the warden was more to him than anyone. Usually, even if you initiate it at interested, you'll end up with him at care afterwards, if not glitched into adore.

It's funny, I never really thought about how much the approval meter shaped my opinions on how Zevran felt about my character. It's hard to truly believe that he is making you choose between him and someone else for the other person's sake when he adores the Warden. Really, given his actual cues aside from that meter, it could be seen as pretty meaningless. But yes, it's that meter which makes me believe that what he says and how he feels are not always in sync.

Modifié par ejoslin, 05 février 2010 - 04:33 .

[Sialater]

He's a subtle character, that's for certain.

[ejoslin]

Heh, or has denial down to a fine art.

[Sabriana]

Oh, she did agree with 'some people need killing.'  She didn't agree with him telling her that he feels a sense of satisfaction when doing it. You see, she didn't know then that Zevran never had any power at all, not even over himself.

I don't find the conversations all that cold, they're more like him trying to go for the jugular (shock value) to see what she's all about. The'yre more like a 'let's see how she'll react to this one'  until we hit the 'Rinna' thing.  He gives himself away often enough, and even contradicts himself. So I wouldn't put all too much stock in what he is trying to convince himself of and/or trying to fend off somehow. Remember, he's been pretty much brainwashed into believing that emotions are potentially deadly.

Listening to the tone in his voice when he describes his mother's fate "she fell in love with an elven woodcutter, etc" told my PC that there is something askew here. There was never any 'belonging' or 'bonding' in Zevran's life, and the very few times that emotions were involved it ended badly for those concerned. Lordy, the poor guy even thinks he killed his mother. Looking at the expression on his face when he says "my first victim if you will" is heart-breaking.

Edited for spelling because posting and eating dinner at the same time appears to be incompatible

Modifié par Sabriana, 05 février 2010 - 05:34 .

[Cuddlezarro]

ejoslin wrote...

My HNF always agreed with the sentiment of, "Some people just need killing." So did, actually, every one of my characters, though my city elf and my HNF felt that the most strongly. My casteless already was a thug who would kill on command (the origin story doesn't have to played that way, but mine sure was).

both my casteless and HN's also agreed with the "some people need killing"

my Human Noble pretty much wants Howe and his family to die a horrible and painful death for what happened to his family

and my casteless didnt actually enjoy killing people but was very protective of his sister and absolutly hated Bherat so he had zero problems gutting him or Jarvia for that matter (though Leske was a completely different matter) if your getting in the way of his sisters happiness you better run for the hills (unless your his **** of a mom but thats because you cant do jack to her)

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

Oh, she did agree with 'some people need killing.'  She didn't agree with him telling her that he feels a sense of satisfaction when doing it. You see, she didn't know then that Zevran never had any power at all, not even over himself.

I don't find the conversations all that cold, they're more like him trying to go for the jugular (shock value) to see what she's all about. The'yre more like a 'let's see how she'll react to this one'  until we hit the 'Rinna' thing.  He gives himself away often enough, and even contradicts himself. So I wouldn't put all too much stock in what he is trying to convince himself of and/or trying to fend off somehow. Remember, he's been pretty much brainwashed into believing that emotions are potentially deadly.

Listening to the tone in his voice when he describes his mother's fate "she fell in love with an elven woodcutter, etc" told my PC that there is something askew here. There was never any 'belonging' or 'bonding' in Zevran's life, and the very few times that emotions were involved it ended badly for those concerned. Lordy, the poor guy even thinks he killed his mother. Looking at the expression on his face when he says "my first victim if you will" is heart-breaking.

Edited for spelling because posting and eating dinner at the same time appears to be incompatible

I was thinking more about the romance aspect -- how with Alistair and Leliana, you get wonderful sweet, warm, loving dialogs.  A rose, outpouring of loving sentiments, whatever.  You don't get that with Zevran.  He lets you know who he is and what he is, and you can accept it or not.  It actually is one of the things I like best about that romance -- he's not sugar coating anything, nor is he stroking the warden's ego, nor is he trying to fall in love (quite the opposite).  But despite the lack of those things, you have that approval meter!  And a few times where genuine warmth comes through, but you have to be willing to see them.

The conversation about the Dalish gets me every time -- so much of what he says is heartbreaking, and he's so matter-of-fact about it.  But when he talks about enjoying the power he has over people's lives as he's sinking the blade in . . . it's cold.  He has far more kindness and compassion than you would ever begin to imagine -- his having to make himself be cold is one of those things I find so endearing about him. 

I've been running around with both Zevran, Leliana, and Alistair in my party, and I think Leliana is far more cold blooded than Zevran.  She may be pious, but she is ruthless.  It's fun listening to Zevran take shots at her faith through sexual banter, but it's actually creepy when she tells Alistair that she would have sex with men before killing them, but it was giving them a good death.  I mean, I know Zevran says that as well, but for some reason, it was scarier when she said it to Alistair.  And I love it when Zevran tells Alistair he ought to try asking for forgiveness himself.

What I don't understand is why Wynne doesn't get on Leliana for her lack of regrets.  I know it's tied into how religious she is -- but Leliana expresses far fewer regrets than Zevran -- and hers have to do with loving the wrong person, not being an assassin and spy.  And she had choices, where Zevran did not.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 05 février 2010 - 05:51 .

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...
And I love it when Zevran tells Alistair he ought to try asking for forgiveness himself.

What I don't understand is why Wynne doesn't get on Leliana for her lack of regrets.  I know it's tied into how religious she is -- but Leliana expresses far fewer regrets than Zevran -- and hers have to do with loving the wrong person, not being an assassin and spy.  And she had choices, where Zevran did not.  

The Alistair-Zevran banter is so crackling with jealousy.  At first I thought it was only headed in one direction, Alistair jealous and suspicious of Zevran, but Zevran takes a harsher tone with Alistair than anyone else so I think it is going both ways.  His dialogue with Alistair about the Maker is the one time I think you hear him deflect the patronizing criticism with actual anger rather than brushing it off with humor.  You hear that again in the banter where Alistair is trying to get him to admit that he's going to leave after the Blight regardless of what Warden PC has to say about it.

As for Wynne and Leliana, would Wynne even know about Leliana's background?  I guess she would after Marjolaine.  That always happens so late in my game that I wouldn't even know if there's banter about it.  But yes, I think Leliana gets a pass from the more pious party members because her entering the chantry is seen as repentance.

[Sabriana]

I agree whole-heartedly. Leliana gets far more forgiveness (from NPC's and players alike) than Zevran, yet she actually told my PC that she enjoyed the 'hunt' and the manipulations and the killings.

Zevran dances around the issue quite often, and he contradicts himself a lot as well. He does have regrets, and he even says to my PC that he had to do many things that were bad, and unlike his 'defense conversations' those ring very true.

And so do Leliana's words that she loved the life of a bard. And she chose it freely, nobody sold her into slavery at age 7. On the contrary, she grew up in a rich house, being cared for by her mother's employer.

[Cuddlezarro]

What I don't understand is why Wynne doesn't get on Leliana for her lack of regrets.

because Zevran is a sleezy elf with no redeemable qualities unlike little miss "I made up a vision just to garner attention to my self because chantry life bored me"

EDIT: really Lelienas religious beleifs are fickle at best this shows if you harden her and if you take her to the sacred ashes quest and the guardian rips her "vision" to shreds

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 05 février 2010 - 06:04 .

[Sabriana]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

What I don't understand is why Wynne doesn't get on Leliana for her lack of regrets.

because Zevran is a sleezy elf with no redeemable qualities unlike little miss "I made up a vision just to garner attention to my self because chantry life bored me"

Or because Zevran dares to be a bi-sexual male, while Leliana is only a bi-sexual female.....

What?? Wait!!

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
And I love it when Zevran tells Alistair he ought to try asking for forgiveness himself.

What I don't understand is why Wynne doesn't get on Leliana for her lack of regrets.  I know it's tied into how religious she is -- but Leliana expresses far fewer regrets than Zevran -- and hers have to do with loving the wrong person, not being an assassin and spy.  And she had choices, where Zevran did not.  

The Alistair-Zevran banter is so crackling with jealousy.  At first I thought it was only headed in one direction, Alistair jealous and suspicious of Zevran, but Zevran takes a harsher tone with Alistair than anyone else so I think it is going both ways.  His dialogue with Alistair about the Maker is the one time I think you hear him deflect the patronizing criticism with actual anger rather than brushing it off with humor.  You hear that again in the banter where Alistair is trying to get him to admit that he's going to leave after the Blight regardless of what Warden PC has to say about it.

As for Wynne and Leliana, would Wynne even know about Leliana's background?  I guess she would after Marjolaine.  That always happens so late in my game that I wouldn't even know if there's banter about it.  But yes, I think Leliana gets a pass from the more pious party members because her entering the chantry is seen as repentance.

Leliana doesn't hide her background as an Orlesian bard, so I would imagine that Wynne knows about it.  She does get a pass, but her regrets are not for what she has done.  She would have continued doing it had she not been betrayed.  Zevran, he has regrets, and the first chance he has to leave it behind, he does.  It's just interesting how all is not how it appears on the surface.

And yes, there is definitely a rivalry between Zevran and Alistair.  I don't believe for a second that Zevran was really trying to be helpful when offering sex advice to Alistair, though I have seen it argued that he was -- that's just Zevran needling Alistair in a very sensitive subject.  Timing of it is funny, because in this game, Alistair is dumped, Zevran is at care, and Leliana is at 100 love.  So it comes off as far more snide than it normally does.  Yes, Leliana is at 100 love because I'm tired of trying to keep that romance turned off.  She'll get dumped soon enough!

[Cuddlezarro]

Yes, Leliana is at 100 love because I'm tired of trying to keep that romance turned off. She'll get dumped soon enough!

yeah turning her romance off is next to impossible unless your a complete ass to her



I lost count how many times I had to say NO im not interested or stuff alogn that lines and she still gets pissy at me for being n a relationship with zevran



plus how she sounds shes like HOW CAN I TRUST YOU YOU SAID ALL THOSE NICE THINGS TO ME!!!



leliena -20 approval

[Sabriana]

Oh yes, my amazon had them both at 100 love/100 friendly (Alistair just dropped from love to friendly) at the same time, and that banter sounded anything but good-natured. Zevran drives the little needles in quite expertly, and resents Alistair's remarks, especially when they involve him being an assassin, leaving Ferelden, and a few more.

Love the "Morrigan said you were sharp. No liar, she." rmark when Alistair tries to squeeze Zevran for information about the Crows. Or the "That cynicism will serve you well, my friend. Hold on to it." when Alistair needles him about the king-look-alike prostitute.

[ejoslin]

Hah, yes, the Leliana romance . . . talk about wanting to be in love. I've actually never played a game with both Leliana and Zevran as regular party members -- their interaction is interesting. It's about as sexually charged as the conversation between him and Wynne (even though I DID do the four way and learned you don't have to have had the tent time with Zevran for it to happen -- he just has to be romanced). Maybe I haven't heard enough of their conversations, but it all seems to be taking digs at the Chantry's view on sex, actually.

Modifié par ejoslin, 05 février 2010 - 06:41 .

[AnniLau]

Sabriana wrote...

Or the "That cynicism will serve you well, my friend. Hold on to it." when Alistair needles him about the king-look-alike prostitute.

I've heard some interactions where one or the other seemed annoyed, but Zev actually sounds a bit admiring there to me...or, at least, like he'd decided Alistair might not be a complete lunkhead after all.

[ejoslin]

Alistair/Zevran banters seem to go from nasty to grudgingly respectful. I think it's pretty clear from them that they become friends. It's funny how the sex advice talk is the only conversation between the two of them about the female warden. Maybe between the sex advice and the rejoining the crows dialogs, they drew a line there of what is not ok to talk about.

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Hah, yes, the Leliana romance . . . talk about wanting to be in love. I've actually never played a game with both Leliana and Zevran as regular party members -- their interaction is interesting. It's about as sexually charged as the conversation between him and Wynne (even though I DID do the four way and learned you don't have to have had the tent time with Zevran for it to happen -- he just has to be romanced). Maybe I haven't heard enough of their conversations, but it all seems to be taking digs at the Chantry's view on sex, actually.

Leliana plays the prude in those dialogues, but you can tell in her "He's quite a character, your Zevran" talk that she would totally hit the elf if she had half a chance.

[LordBegrezen]

Compared to the other party Members, I think pretty much all of Zevrans banter dialogues are quite friendly, at least from his side. I always get the feeling he really wants to get along with them. I don't happen to know all of his banter, though...



I was really pissed with Wynne when she was so disrespectful to him because he didn't want to talk about his regets... I removed her from my party. :-)

At any rate, I guess he could become friends with all of them if they weren't so occupied with resenting him for his past, and his rather slippery comments of course ^^

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Hah, yes, the Leliana romance . . . talk about wanting to be in love. I've actually never played a game with both Leliana and Zevran as regular party members -- their interaction is interesting. It's about as sexually charged as the conversation between him and Wynne (even though I DID do the four way and learned you don't have to have had the tent time with Zevran for it to happen -- he just has to be romanced). Maybe I haven't heard enough of their conversations, but it all seems to be taking digs at the Chantry's view on sex, actually.

Leliana plays the prude in those dialogues, but you can tell in her "He's quite a character, your Zevran" talk that she would totally hit the elf if she had half a chance.

Oh, she hit him this play through.  She had NO objections at all to Zevran joining in with her, my warden, and Isabela.  In fact, when she knew Zevran was joining in, she flirted!

[Cuddlezarro]

I was really pissed with Wynne when she was so disrespectful to him because he didn't want to talk about his regets... I removed her from my party. :-)

you gotten wynns relationship "advise" concerning zevran yet? trust me if you thinks shes being disresectful there man she's a  ***** during that conversation and it takes her forever to apollogize

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 05 février 2010 - 08:06 .

[ejoslin]

LordBegrezen wrote...


Compared to the other party Members, I think pretty much all of Zevrans banter dialogues are quite friendly, at least from his side. I always get the feeling he really wants to get along with them. I don't happen to know all of his banter, though...

I was really pissed with Wynne when she was so disrespectful to him because he didn't want to talk about his regets... I removed her from my party. :-)
At any rate, I guess he could become friends with all of them if they weren't so occupied with resenting him for his past, and his rather slippery comments of course ^^

I agree.  He manages to deflect everything with good humor, for the most part, except a few of Alistair's comments.  And I agree 100% that Wynne was the one who was out of line.  Especially if you take Zevran to the tower; he actually is very respectful and reassuring with her.

One reason I want to play a male play through (soon) is to see the difference in party banter.  In the female version, many if not most of his sexual remarks come off as deflection, not serious.  Well, he did manage to melt Morrigan, but as soon as he did, he demanded payment for winning the bet instead of moving in.

And I think for the most part he did become friends with them.  He definitely was friends with both Sten and Oghren, and I think Alistair as well.  I loved his banter with Shale, about the pleasures of life and such.  Not only the one about having children, but all of them.

I'm over-squee'ing again. So I'll leave it here saying, yes, I agree!

Edit:

Cuddlezarro wrote...

you gotten wynns relationship "advise" concerning zevran yet? trust me thats even worse

This is so horrible.  I swear, with Alistair and Leliana, you can take it as her being concerned for them.  But she is so insulting towards Zevran.  Her apology is nice, but I actually killed her at the second place you can kill her for that very reason on a play through.  It made me mad!  *grin*

Modifié par ejoslin, 05 février 2010 - 08:07 .

[Addai]

Wynne is sitting at the Circle Tower on my current Zevran-romancing playthrough. Last thing my blood mage wants is a Circle spy looking over her shoulder giving helpful "advice" every chance she gets. And certainly any "advice" about Zevran would not go over well, either.

[Cuddlezarro]

quick quest: since my Noble tainted the ashes will wynn pretty much abandon me when I get back to camp once I recruit her (I havnt done the circle tower yet)



because I wasnt to here that conversation otherwise Ill just side with Cullen and make Wynn attack me (killing her at the start of the tower is to malicious for my character and if you side with Cullen she attacks YOU making it aok to kill her in self defense)

[ejoslin]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

quick quest: since my Noble tainted the ashes will wynn pretty much abandon me when I get back to camp once I recruit her (I havnt done the circle tower yet)

because I wasnt to here that conversation otherwise Ill just side with Cullen and make Wynn attack me (killing her at the start of the tower is to malicious for my character and if you side with Cullen she attacks YOU making it aok to kill her in self defense)

No, as long as it was done before recruiting her, she has no knowledge of it.  Zev's conversation there is worth hearing, actually.