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[Addai]

FierachEredasSoulchiou wrote...

Isabella cooties got on Zev long before yours did.

Just an FYI.

Oh yes, I'm aware.  But it's been long enough and enough seawater under the bridge that my elf mage isn't bothered about that.  Now, fresh Isabela cooties, those are an entirely different matter...

Eww.

Heh, over on my HNF game, she is with Alistair but I forgot that the romance with Zevran was still on and she tried to kiss Alistair when they all came out of Anvil of the Void (she had left him behind, not wanting the heir running through the Dead Trenches).  Zev did his "don't mind me, I'm not here" line and Alistair refused to kiss her.  Doh!  HNF was stunned.  So many of my characters flirt with Zevran not realizing until much later that it means more to him than just a fling.  Now she is trying to decide what to do about it.  She loves Alistair, but keeps trying to break up with him for the sake of the kingdom and can't bring herself.  *sigh*  It's hard to love the king.

I'm not sure what I'm going to end up doing with her.  I wonder... what happens if the Taliesin encounter occurs while the romance is still on but she doesn't offer Zevran a romantic future?  I really don't want him to leave.  If she ends up queen, she is going to need him around, and if Alistair dies, she is going to need him around!

[Addai]

Sabriana wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

LOL, Isabela is obviously a Grey Warden fangirl herself. "A Grey Warden? Ooooh, anything for you, sweet thing!"

Oh yeah. I love the way he sounds so proud when he tells Isabella that he's traveling with a Grey Warden. He really is too funny sometimes, but I also get that feeling of him being proud of her in one of his blurbs:
"Grey Warden, Darkspawn. Darkspawn, Grey Warden."

Yes, it's sweet.  At various turns he seems to not himself be able to believe where he's ended up.  Though his life philosophy being to roll with the punches, he does so remarkably well with the Wardens also.

I just finished the Trial of Crows quest line for the first time.  I was hoping for even more insight into Zevran from it, but it was still good for my HNF to see a bit of Zevran's world and also to see him speak up as part of her team, as when he warns Ignacio "not to play us false."  That must have been so significant for someone whose whole world since age 7 had been the Crows.  All in all HNF gained more respect for the Crows.  I imagine if she ends up princess-consort, that will be a good "business relationship" to have.  Heh, she really would make a good queen, being a cunning rogue with bard talents.  Definitely bad cop to Alistair's good cop, while still being princess smiley heroine on the face of it.

Can I just say that I love Zevran fans.  You all are the best on the board.  :happy:

Modifié par Addai67, 06 février 2010 - 08:42 .

[Addai]

More squee... I tried the option where you suggest killing the Dalish, and had Zevran along. Wow, his plea is so heartfelt. The fact that he obviously feels so much for a mother he never knew makes the glove dialogue all the more poignant. I started thinking about him as a child, looking at the gloves and dreaming about his mother... ack.

Then of course I felt horrible that I had even had my character suggest such a thing. But he not only forgave her, he gave a +4 when she changed her mind. (So did Morrigan, though I imagine Morrigan's approval was for the fact that you suggested a doublecross in the first place.) HNF did feel somewhat justified later when Panowen attacked her. I don't know if I missed the Persuade or what, but it's the first time Panowen wouldn't let me talk her out of her spat of vengenace.

Anyway, in this thread many have talked about Zevran's loyalty to the warden. I believe that's part of his character, but this interaction made me realize he also (as part of his programming) is looking at the warden as slave master. I get that feeling a bit when he is asking, after Taliesin, what the PC wants him to do. It's why my city elf PC was careful not to push him, although I see ejoslin's point that not giving him a "please stay" response is not a loving thing to do, either.

Edit:  Something dawned on me about this Dalish encounter as I thought about how hesitant and conflicted Zevran sounded, versus other times when he very confidently tells the warden what she should or shouldn't do, or as with Ruck simply takes charge and does it.  I wondered why he didn't express a stronger opinion, rather than pleading and sounding hesitant.  But it's precisely because his personal feelings are engaged that he is having a hard time telling the warden she's making a bad decision.  His love for Rinna caused his assassin training to kick into overdrive, and his feelings for his mother put him on similar unsteady footing.  He seems to be fighting with himself about what to do.  The writers really have thought of everything.

Modifié par Addai67, 07 février 2010 - 01:06 .

[ejoslin]

I'm just leaving Lothering now, and I have no clue where to go from here. Human mage so the circle tower is out. *sigh* do I miss the Guantlet, Redcliff, or the werewolves . . . I was set on doing the werewolves, but Addai67, yes, his plea for them is so sad, and he's so grateful afterwards.



About the slave issue, I actually agree. His "I am yours," is probably just as much about ownership as it is about love. However, if he's romancing the warden, he wants to be there, and if he's not, he wants his freedom though it's easy to talk him into staying.

[Addai]

ejoslin, I added an edit up above, if you care to comment.

[_Aine_]

It is kind of funny, i just got dumped by Alistair although Zev and my DE have been a serious item since, well, Eamon pushed the whole idea of Alistair being King anyway. A smart elf knows that she will never, in her lifetime, be greater than the perceptions of what a Queen should be... *sigh* I ran to Zev once dumped, only to be in time for him to reject my little elf as well. *sniff* Timing *is* everything sometimes.

Well, needless to say.... it gave me more pronounced opinions on his slavery and ownership thing. He has always been owned as a matter of course, his approval based on this ownership and his behaviour within those chains that keep him. I think for a good part of his falling for the warden, it is still much a owned thing for him. You have ownership of him, without you his life is forfeit. His loyalty is based on that ownership, whether he has feelings for you or not.

It evolves beyond this, the Tal situation somewhat is the key that unlocks his slavery. When you kill Tal, you effectively free him from the Crows ( to a great extent anyway) and he *could* walk away. I think this is the moment that he not only becomes free but that he trusts and cares enough about you that he becomes willingly owned. He is confused at his freedom, but now he is enslaved by his feelings for you, instead of by an outside unfeeling source. And strange though it may seem to outside observers, his is a gift of sorts to the warden, a freedom given up in his *wanting* to shed his freedom to see his loves task through to the end. And then, implying that he would give his life, to save her own... come on, that is Epic-squee if there was ever a squee worthy of it.

We have all been enslaved in our lives, in one form or another.... the thought of someone whose freedom was always elusive, and perhaps so far from probable that it didnt even exist in dream, giving up said freedom to remain by your side.... well, this is the thing of fairy tales but am i ever glad that this one was written that I could be a character in it too.

Modifié par shantisands, 07 février 2010 - 01:20 .

[ejoslin]

Hmmmm, with Ruck, he sounds very pained as well if you don't have Oghren with you so he's the only one speaking (Oghren speaks instead of Zevran twice in that). Ruck is so upsetting on many levels, but mostly because, well, that is what happens eventually with the taint, which is afflicting the warden, just more slowly. I wonder if part of his reaction, wanting to put Ruck out of his misery, had to do with that.

I'm really not convinced that Zevran loved Rinna (I know, sacrilege), though he most definitely desired her and was infatuated at the very least. She loved him for sure, but he was so fast to let her die. The crows were so much more to him at that point than she was, before that came crashing down around him. But I know most disagree with me on that one.

Anyway, I don't know if it's because of his personal feelings. I think it may actually be the opposite. He sounds the same if you side with Cullen -- he pleads for the mages though unfortunately you can't change your mind once you go down that path. However, if you talk to the slavers in the alienage, Zevran gets angry with the warden, not pleading, as he tells her to look in the eyes of the slaves before sending them into slavery.

Argh, excellent questions. I have no clue! I love Zevran stuff to think about! In a day or two I'll probably change my mind a few times and disagree with myself on here some more.

Edit: to stop from making yet another post, I wanted to comment to Shantisands.  YES!  You word it so much better than I do. 

Modifié par ejoslin, 07 février 2010 - 01:25 .

[Creature 1]

ejoslin wrote...
I'm really not convinced that Zevran loved Rinna (I know, sacrilege), though he most definitely desired her and was infatuated at the very least. She loved him for sure, but he was so fast to let her die. The crows were so much more to him at that point than she was, before that came crashing down around him. But I know most disagree with me on that one.
 

I tend to agree with you.  I think maybe Rinna was more an extremely delayed first infatuation, something Zevran might have experienced as a teen in a normal situation.  Not really love, more like intoxication, and something a person usually gets over surprisingly fast.  

[Nonvita]

ejoslin wrote...
I'm really not convinced that Zevran loved Rinna (I know, sacrilege), though he most definitely desired her and was infatuated at the very least. She loved him for sure, but he was so fast to let her die. The crows were so much more to him at that point than she was, before that came crashing down around him. But I know most disagree with me on that one.

I'd actually probably agree with you for the most part. Even if his feelings for Rinna were love, it was still a very conditional love, and one that he didn't understand. After all, it was basically his first time ever feeling anything of the sort for another person, so he is likely to have gotten wrapped up in the confusion about those feelings. So no matter whether his feelings were lust or love, he couldn't transform those feelings into an actual promise to love and protect her. Also, because he was still completely loyal to the Crows at that point, his understanding of relationships was that they were formed for personal gain. If there wasn't something to be gotten from it, then it was only a liability and a hindrance. He may have had sincere feelings for her, but only so long as she fulfilled his expectations of her, and clearly only so long as she remained a dutiful Crow.

That said, some people have complained about the Rinna story being typical and unnecessary for Zevran's character, but I don't think that at all. If he'd never had those feelings for her, then I wouldn't have trusted his feelings for the Warden as much. He had to learn that love must be protected, rather than disposed of once it loses its luster. He had to see that love requires personal investment and commitment. His feelings for the Warden aren't necessarily different than they were for Rinna, but this time around he understands them better (still not great, but enough to be open about them as well as willing to make sacrifices for love), and he is no longer confined by his loyalty to the Crows. Rinna, in my mind, was necessary to make his love for the Warden real, and not just infatuation.

Otherwise I think he could have ended up much more like Alistair- completely done in by his love until other things get in the way, at which point love would not be his first priority. Instead, he's able to see it as the most important thing, and to pursue it above all else.


(Explained really poorly. >.< )

[Creature 1]

Nonvita wrote...
(Explained really poorly. >.< )

No, I think it's explained well.  I like this thread because everyone has different interpretations and sometimes I think have insights that I missed.  

[Cuddlezarro]

ok seems in my game Zevran gained psychic powers (wynn as well)

I was playing my dwarf casteless who just killed conner and despite not even being in my party gained +4 approval once the deed was done (also lost -4 approval with wynn who like zev wasnt even in the party) and the biggest shocker of all -20 from OGHREN but he was in my party so he knew I killed the boy

it was distasteful but he didnt trust jowan and like alot of my characters thought it was to risky going to the tower

however as distasteful killing conner was I took great pleasure in doing this (and she deserved it for what she allowed to happen to the villiage under her protection)

http://img.photobuck...crap/isolde.jpg

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 07 février 2010 - 02:40 .

[Addai]

I tend to think of Rinna as "opening" Zevran. I don't hesitate to call it love, however. That word can mean many things. To him, it was the closest thing he had experienced. If he had succeeded in committing suicide by Grey Warden, she would have been his only love... as tragic as that is.

[Nonvita]

It's love in feeling, yes. But real love isn't just about feelings, it's about commitment and being willing to sacrifice yourself for it.

So yes, if he is killed or not romanced then Rinna is his only love. What makes his love for the Warden different if romanced is that he finally understands, and is willing to commit to, the obligations that come with lasting love.

[Sabriana]

I agree with everybody who stated that his feelings for Rinna were not love, but that those feelings opened him up for learning about love. He was afraid of those feelings, he "convinced himself" that they were not there, he fought them with all his might and I'm thinking that he agreed with Taliesin so quickly because Rinna and his feelings for her were scaring him and threatened his whole outlook and his beliefs.

They threatened everything he was brainwashed into believing. They threatened his loyalty to the Crows, who at that point, are all that he knows.

He grows so much during the time with the warden, it is heartwarming to see and hear.

The way he says "I am yours" does not say 'ownership' to me, personally. The look in his eyes and on his face tell my PC that he is hers, and she is his. More in the line of "I am yours, and you are mine".

I came here initially to seek solace, and tend to my aching head. I once again wandered into threads where I had to read that Zevran was a sleazy, heartless, remorseless, irredeemable, whathaveyou assassin. Sigh. I wish people would actually play out the romance before condemning him in that way. If they did, they'd learn that he does have regrets, he admits to being a murderer, he does state that he had to do many bad things, and in the end, he doesn't want to stay an assassin. He wants to be with his GW, she is all he needs and wants. Heck, he'd die for her, and not because it's going to be glorious and heroic, but simply so she could live.


Edited for clarity. I guess my head hurts worse than I thought

Modifié par Sabriana, 07 février 2010 - 12:27 .

[ejoslin]

Awww Sabriana, feel better soon.

Zevran does grow, doesn't he, during the time. He's finally doing something he is proud of ("I have never done anything so worthy.") I think the bulk of his changing came beforehand. I don't think the Rinna story was typical OR unnecessary -- I've not read that opinion. I think the whole incident, Rinna AND the crows reaction to it were both equally as important, and together were the reason why he could not keep going on the way he was.

But since he didn't die, he had to figure out WHAT he was and what he would do. I don't think he became a warmhearted person, but he also never was a cold-hearted, psychotic murderer. I look at my Warden's actions -- she is a killer as well, a thief, a con artist at times. It all may be out of necessity, but she certainly has a ruthless streak.

I don't think Zevran becomes saintly. He could go back to being an assassin (as shown if the Warden sacrifices herself, and he at the end is still offering assassin services for the crown), but in Ferelden, life is so much cheaper, it's hard to be mortified by it. It's what he knows -- it's all he's ever known. It's why I think, of all the companions, he would be the best for recruiting and training for the Grey Wardens along with my PC.

Edit: And at times, as we all discuss, Zevran shows more compassion than any of the other companions.  But his compassion seems to be more for groups of people, not individuals.  When dealing with individuals, there only seems to be one person, the Warden, friend or lover, that matters to him.

Modifié par ejoslin, 07 février 2010 - 12:42 .

[Sabriana]

Thanks, Ejoslin



Oh yes, he could and will become an assassin again, but only if what he really wants becomes unavailable for him.

He's just as good (or bad) as the rest of all people. If he was a psychotic killer, he'd ignore Ruck, cheer her on destroying the mages, and applaud her killing the elves.

As for his wanting the anvil, it's nothing more than him not yet realizing that slavery is a bad thing. Heck, it's all he was for his whole life.

I mean, am I the only one who flinched when he tells her "Massage techniques you only learn growing up in a wh**ehouse"

Pardon?

Wasn't he a mere 7 years old when he was sold?

What? What the heck did they do to that child in the brothel?

[ejoslin]

The anvil -- I think he agreed in the abstract. There is a lot of power there, and he is pragmatic. We're not talking 1 slave, we're talking 1 slave = the strength of 50 men. It is a tool of great power. Yes, it is evil. But that kind of power is difficult to ignore, especially for someone who understands strength and survival.



And yes, both in the **** house and as a crow recruit, he was a very young child, and I'm sure used in all ways. His backstory is so awful; not with what he tells the warden which is horrible, but with what he doesn't tell. Really, one of the most surprising things to me about the romance is eventually sex becomes an expression of love for him because he certainly was taught and lived the absolute opposite of that.

[Sabriana]

ejoslin wrote...

The anvil -- I think he agreed in the abstract. There is a lot of power there, and he is pragmatic. We're not talking 1 slave, we're talking 1 slave = the strength of 50 men. It is a tool of great power. Yes, it is evil. But that kind of power is difficult to ignore, especially for someone who understands strength and survival.

And yes, both in the **** house and as a crow recruit, he was a very young child, and I'm sure used in all ways. His backstory is so awful; not with what he tells the warden which is horrible, but with what he doesn't tell. Really, one of the most surprising things to me about the romance is eventually sex becomes an expression of love for him because he certainly was taught and lived the absolute opposite of that.

Yes it is a miracle. It also tells my PC that he is stronger than all of her other companions combined.

[ejoslin]

I think some of the most revealing things about Zevran come from his party banter with Shale. I'm not just talking the squee conversation about liking the thought of having a baby with the warden, but more when he talks about accepting the lows in life to experience the highs.

[Addai]

Well, HFN got the invitation to a massage and finally had to face reality.  She's having to do that a lot these days.  I'm surprised how it worked out- I kept expecting the "Alistair or me" talk, but it's like somehow things skipped ahead of that.  She had to turn him down.  Damn hard to do, especially since she likes Zevran a lot now (the Dalish thing and Master Ignacio helped) and since she's going to break up with Alistair soon to save the kingdom.  She is more Alistair than Alistair is.  I think I'm going with ultimate sacrifce.  So now it's celibacy and then death at the archdemon.  God, it sucks to be a Cousland.  I guess it sucks to be all of them.  Though she's going to proclaim herself queen first, and probably give Alistair a last roll once they hear what Riordan has to say and she's told Morrigan to go jump into Lake Calenhad.

Egad, I hope I don't get the ending slide where Zevran returns to the Crows.  Then I'm going to have to backtrack for sure.  She will definitely try to get Zevran to stay after Taliesin, and would make Alistair hire him as royal assassin, but I suspect the game won't cooperate.

Modifié par Addai67, 07 février 2010 - 05:18 .

[ejoslin]

If you sacrifice yourself, he returns to the crows no matter what.  

Edit: SPOILER

With the friend ending, which you get whether he's romanced and dumped or always been just friends is that after he is readmitted as the leader of the crows, even he would say he doesn't know if that's a good or a bad thing.  If he's in love, then despite frequent offers of bed partners, he never loves again.

Both . . . heartbreaking.

Second edit: What I don't know is if you let him go after Taliesen if you still get that ending.  I suspect not.  My guess is he gets away from them completely.  If you keep him with you, they can find him again.  Though it's very possible I'm wrong about it, and that is one I don't see myself testing any time soon.

Wow, third edit: The reason the crows catch up with him is he doesn't try to hide from them.  The more I think about it, immediately after the Taliesen encounter is probably his once chance to escape from them forever and ever.  It may end up being kindest to let him go then if you're planning on sacrificing himself -- it's the chance to give him a life outside of all of that.  No, I'm not testing it.  I swear, I am NOT.  Nononononono!  ugh, maybe.  Now I want to know.

Modifié par ejoslin, 07 février 2010 - 05:26 .

[Addai]

Ugh! That has got to be the worst ending ever.

[jenovan]

Been quiet lately cos I have little input on what's going on lately -- I just love this thread. You guys + gals rock. XD



Some questions, though!

1. Okay, when Zevran is at the romance level where he says "What is your desire?", and you want to ask him some questions, what is his usual reply?



To my male human mage, Zevran says something like "All right, but I consider this pillow talk." I've never heard that line before this! He certainly never said it to my male elf (And I'm pretty sure it's not a mod issue because he never said that to my elf on the PS3, either...). What does he say to others?



2. And this is an opinion question... Not that there ever is a good time or way to break up with Zevran, but if I have to do it... should my mage break it off before Morrigan forces him to (ugh, I know.. ;D), or wait for the inevitable talk?



Story-wise, I think my mage can see that Zevran wants more than a casual fling, despite whatever he says, but he himself does not, so I could see him trying to head that off before it gets more complicated... (Whereas Morrigan is constantly denying that she wants an emotional attachment, and her general ****iness seems to hold true to that.

[Addai]

Elf mage is getting the "pillow talk" response now. I believe she is at around 80 Adore. I am guessing that is a response if they've been to the tent, since HNF was getting "stare luridly" all along.

Forget it, jenovan. If you've been in this thread, breaking up with Zevran is impossible to do! I hate HNF so much right now. And I hate ejoslin too! (facetiously, of course!) After you posted about the Shale dialogues, I had to go run some since HNF is in Orzammar. Naturally the first one would have to be where Zevran tells Shale that "our Grey Warden" is an object worthy of worship. The Maker is punishing her!!! The ones about life, the advantages and disadvantages of being made of flesh, certainly are amazing. He talks about children there, too- when Shale brings up sickness and death he says "But what of children?" and something about the beginning of life.  Zevran really wants a child, I guess. *heavy sigh*

Modifié par Addai67, 07 février 2010 - 06:06 .

[Addai]

Another shot of Eren, fresh from torturing herself by eavesdropping on Zevran and Shale.