35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Nonvita]

Elps wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Elps wrote...

I didn't say culture and religion had anything to do with species. I said the humans, elves and dwarves are different species, each with their own physiology, culture and religion. 

Since they can sometime interbreed, its logical to assume that humans, elves and dwarves share a common ****** sapien/humanoid-type ancestry, but elves and dwarves are sure not subspecies of humans. YMMV...

The ability to interbreed and have offspring that can interbreed in their turn is the definition of being the same species (if the species reproduce sexually).

It seemed like it was implied that the culture and religion was an argument for the difference of them, other than in culture and religion. Doesn't dwarves, humans and elves have similar diets, life expectancy and habits? (in difference to Qunari, who seem to be on an entirely different metabolism)

No, elves were immortal until they lived too closely to humans and they quickened. Dwarves may be more closely related to Neanderthals   I believe that they all descend from the same genus, but are not the same species (or even subspecies of one ancestral species). 

Yes, it is sometimes possible to be able to interbreed despite being classified as separate species. Even though fantasy likes to refer to them as races, they really are unique species entirely.

Re: the height question--it seems they made humans decidedly tall regardless of historical (in)accuracy, so a male elf at 5'7" (~173cm) would still be much shorter than a male human at 6'2" (~190cm, I think). Also, the height they list Zevran as may not reflect his actual height in game, but perhaps that he was intended to be slightly taller than other elves. With only one default body model per race/gender, it's hard to judge exactly what those heights mean.

Edit:
Yay I have no good pictures for this.

Modifié par Nonvita, 14 avril 2010 - 03:01 .

[soignee]

Apologies for making a ****** of myself on the internets last night! I got giddy.

And there are no dwarf children models in game Dagna and Sandal are about 15, according to the toolset.

[Nonvita]

Elps wrote...

Shame about the children - they would be so tiny & cute!

As to the species thing - there isn't any right answer. Even Tolkein avoided the issue by calling his creations races then letting the world argue forever after 
I wonder how David Gaider thinks of them?

Well, classifying a species is tricky business. Some would even argue that humans are composed of multiple species, but clearly that would raise way more tensions than it's worth. Being different species doesn't mean you're drastically different, nor that you can't interbreed. It can be determined by 1. genetic differences and 2. location. I would argue heavily in favor of humans/elves/dwarves being different species, as they are clearly A. genetically very different (even so far as lyrium resistance in dwarves, and elves having more 'adaptable' genes), and B. there is little interbreeding between the different groups. Still, at the end of the day, whether or  not they're classified as races or species is a matter of what people choose to label them.

[Ramante]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The ability to interbreed and have offspring that can interbreed in their turn is the definition of being the same species (if the species reproduce sexually).

This is not exactly true... The individuals who can interbreed must be able to meet each other in the outside world. There are more than 10 000 species of orchids, all of them can interbreed and have fertile offspring but they are different species -> orched from South-America would never 'meet' a orchid from Indonesia, so they are different species.
And now I quit before I really feel like a teacher. xD

During the Gauntlet I never have seen the response from Zevran to Alistair about standing on a trap (new mission in my DA life). When you finish the puzzle he will say something about 'there is a lesson in here somewhere about trusting your friends.' paraphrased. Now that I think about it he is saying something that is for him impossible, because he could never trust his friends because if they were paid enough they would certainly stab him in the back.
I don't think that the puzzle comments are 'related' to the answer for the Guardian question. During the puzzle he is more giving his view(s) on life (as a Crow). It would have been nice if the comments were different if his approval was high/low..

[Herr Uhl]

Ramante wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

The ability to interbreed and have offspring that can interbreed in their turn is the definition of being the same species (if the species reproduce sexually).

This is not exactly true... The individuals who can interbreed must be able to meet each other in the outside world. There are more than 10 000 species of orchids, all of them can interbreed and have fertile offspring but they are different species -> orched from South-America would never 'meet' a orchid from Indonesia, so they are different species.
And now I quit before I really feel like a teacher. xD

I use mine definition as to not be to confused at the subject. You can have fertile offspring - Race or breed. You can't - Species. By that same definition (not being able to meet), humans wouldn't have been the same species in different parts of the world until intercontinental travel was made possible. Would the orchids become the same species if they invented boats for instance?

Edit: And yes, my biology professors dislike me thinking that way.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 14 avril 2010 - 03:26 .

[soignee]

Nonvita wrote...

Well, classifying a species is tricky business. Some would even argue that humans are composed of multiple species, but clearly that would raise way more tensions than it's worth. Being different species doesn't mean you're drastically different, nor that you can't interbreed. It can be determined by 1. genetic differences and 2. location. I would argue heavily in favor of humans/elves/dwarves being different species, as they are clearly A. genetically very different (even so far as lyrium resistance in dwarves, and elves having more 'adaptable' genes), and B. there is little interbreeding between the different groups. Still, at the end of the day, whether or  not they're classified as races or species is a matter of what people choose to label them.

Yeah, much as I'd love a cute little Missa/Zevran hybrid for Missa to shove her mummy issues onto, it's not happening.

The lyrium/magic connection still confuses the stuffing out of me, as well as access to the Fade. I PLAY DWARVES YOU GUIS, I DO NOT UNDERSTAND

[Ramante]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Ramante wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

The ability to interbreed and have offspring that can interbreed in their turn is the definition of being the same species (if the species reproduce sexually).

This is not exactly true... The individuals who can interbreed must be able to meet each other in the outside world. There are more than 10 000 species of orchids, all of them can interbreed and have fertile offspring but they are different species -> orched from South-America would never 'meet' a orchid from Indonesia, so they are different species.
And now I quit before I really feel like a teacher. xD

I use mine definition as to not be to confused at the subject. You can have fertile offspring - Race or breed. You can't - Species. By that same definition (not being able to meet), humans wouldn't have been the same species in different parts of the world until intercontinental travel was made possible. Would the orchids become the same species if they invented boats for instance?

Edit: And yes, my biology professors dislike me thinking that way.

Humans can meet and they don't really need boats or plains to do it, though it would be a very long walk/drive/swim.
If the plants invented boats and suddenly had the ability to move; orchids would become the same species. Though they had to evolve quite a bit to be able to live in all different environments.. I understand what you mean don't get me wrong, I used to think the same way, but to be able to get any further on the subject I had to be content about a not very satisfying definition of species.

What I really like about Zevran and the different 'race/species (take your pick) is that the romance feels different depending on what the Warden is.  And the differences in romance scenes/kisses also makes it that much more special. :'
Alistair doesn't have the best kiss in the game, right? I'm talking about the kneel down dwarf kiss.

[Creature 1]

I don't know of anyone who suggests humans are different species.



I think humans/dwarves/elves are different species and should not be able to interbreed.

[Nonvita]

Creature 1 wrote...

I don't know of anyone who suggests humans are different species.

I think humans/dwarves/elves are different species and should not be able to interbreed.

Not saying I do think humans are different species, but there are those out there who would argue it and with at least some backing. Heck, there's probably more reason to argue that humans are different species than some of the distinctions with other animals that have been made. But arguing species vs. race/breed really can be a waste of time--it's far too fine a line to fit everything perfectly.

[Creature 1]

There aren't any scientists who would argue it.

[soignee]

You are all dazzling me with science, I find it sexy.

Carry on.

*pictures you all with nice white lab coats and nerd glasses perched just so on your nose*

[Creature 1]

soignee wrote...

You are all dazzling me with science, I find it sexy.
Carry on.
*pictures you all with nice white lab coats and nerd glasses perched just so on your nose*

My lab coat's blue. 

[soignee]

Creature 1 wrote...

soignee wrote...

You are all dazzling me with science, I find it sexy.
Carry on.
*pictures you all with nice white lab coats and nerd glasses perched just so on your nose*

My lab coat's blue. 

Do you also hold your hair up with a pencil and shake it out slowly when you are thinking? PLEASE SAY YES

[Ramante]

Creature 1 wrote...

soignee wrote...

You are all dazzling me with science, I find it sexy.
Carry on.
*pictures you all with nice white lab coats and nerd glasses perched just so on your nose*

My lab coat's blue. 

Mine is red. ._.
I wish I was gifted enough to draw a nice painting on it..

Thanks for your pm Charsen.. I have decided God is against me. I swear every hot guy has a girlfriend, is gay or is not real. *glares @ Zevran*

Modifié par Ramante, 14 avril 2010 - 04:33 .

[UpiH]

Grammatici certamen...



G'eve, night, morn, day. I've seen far too many half-elves in fantasy settings to argue elves being different species. Half-dwarves seem more rare. Anyhoo, nowadays it's pretty dangerous to speak of any race or even gender. I'd just say, they are sentient species, hehe.

[Creature 1]

soignee wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

soignee wrote...

You are all dazzling me with science, I find it sexy.
Carry on.
*pictures you all with nice white lab coats and nerd glasses perched just so on your nose*

My lab coat's blue. 

Do you also hold your hair up with a pencil and shake it out slowly when you are thinking? PLEASE SAY YES

  Sorry, no.  It's usually too short to pin up with a pencil.  I usually more wander around with a vacant stare and stop in the middle of the lab unexpectedly so people have to dodge me.  

[Tellervo]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Elps wrote...

I didn't say culture and religion had anything to do with species. I said the humans, elves and dwarves are different species, each with their own physiology, culture and religion. 

Since they can sometime interbreed, its logical to assume that humans, elves and dwarves share a common ****** sapien/humanoid-type ancestry, but elves and dwarves are sure not subspecies of humans. YMMV...

The ability to interbreed and have offspring that can interbreed in their turn is the definition of being the same species (if the species reproduce sexually).

It seemed like it was implied that the culture and religion was an argument for the difference of them, other than in culture and religion. Doesn't dwarves, humans and elves have similar diets, life expectancy and habits? (in difference to Qunari, who seem to be on an entirely different metabolism)

I'm thinking perhaps the ability of humans and elves to interbreed is more a holdover from Tolkien and DnD, where (1) humans and elves are most certainly different species, and (2) humans are compatible with pretty much everything.  It's a lesser fantasy trope--that humans will put it anywhere, and can make it with anything.

It's probably also there to make elven subjugation a little more horrific.  I seriously doubt they thought about it in a scientific fashion when they made the decision.  Just as their geography confuses me immensely.

Modifié par Tellervo, 14 avril 2010 - 05:29 .

[Minaleth]

LOL @ science talk in lab coats and glasses I don't have coat, but I have glasses and I point at students with white board markers. Do I count? 

Ramante wrote...
Thanks for your pm Charsen.. I have decided God is against me. I swear every hot guy has a girlfriend, is gay or is not real. *glares @ Zevran*

Don't forget the dead ones, some are hot too ^^ *points at Morrison poster*

[Herr Uhl]

Minaleth wrote...

LOL @ science talk in lab coats and glasses I don't have coat, but I have glasses and I point at students with white board markers. Do I count? 

I borrow mine, so I don't count :sadface:

You have the hot teacher look at least.

[Sannox]

I didn't realise that the species/race thing was an old debate. I don't normally read or play fantasy, and the elves just look so incredibly similar to humans it's hard to imagine that they're not. The dwarves are a bit different. I want them to look like short, stocky people, but those arms do make them look odd, and much more different than the elves. The darkspawn are quite human too, come to think of it.

[Minaleth]

Tellervo wrote...
I'm thinking perhaps the ability of humans and elves to interbreed is more a holdover from Tolkien and DnD, where (1) humans and elves are most certainly different species, and (2) humans are compatible with pretty much everything.  It's a lesser fantasy trope--that humans will put it anywhere, and can make it with anything.

It's probably also there to make elven subjugation a little more horrific.  I seriously doubt they thought about it in a scientific fashion when they made the decision.  Just as their geography confuses me immensely.

I mostly agree with this. I doubt authors of Thedas lore put in much of biology an genetics knowledge to make it scientifically plausible. E.g. in Tolkien elf/human (Arwen/Aragorn e.g.)bonding is imho just a drama device, not a take on race/species status.

[Ramante]

Minaleth wrote...

Ramante wrote...
Thanks for your pm Charsen.. I have decided God is against me. I swear every hot guy has a girlfriend, is gay or is not real. *glares @ Zevran*

Don't forget the dead ones, some are hot too ^^ *points at Morrison poster*

Yes... little disturbing thought actually..

Today I was listening to a song and I suddenly realized it was perfect for my blood mage (or maybe even desire demon) - Zevran romance;
I copied the lyric from the internet, so typos are not on me and I'm too lazy to check. v.v'

"My Medea"

Inside the labyrinth walls
There lies a tiny child who sleeps alone
And as the daylight falls
The wind becomes so wild across the stone

For I have made her prison be
Her every step away from me
And this child I would destroy
If you tried to set her free

So come to me my love
I'll tap into your strength and drain it dry
Can never have enough
For you I'd burn the length and breadth of sky

For it's my thoughts that bind me here
It's this love that I most fear
And this child I would destroy
For I hold her pain most dear

No haven for this heart
No shelter for this child in mazes lost
Heaven keep us apart
A curse for every mile of ocean crossed

For I must die for what I've done
A twist of fate a desert sun
For I see what I destroy
Sweet reflection knife into me
For I see what I destroy
I can see what I've begun

Edit: because format hates me.

Modifié par Ramante, 14 avril 2010 - 05:41 .

[MorGothic]

I got my Guild Wars account back today...and I wish I hadn't.



Unfortunely it appears the gold seller who accessed my account was able to inflict a large amount of damage, my main character's inventory has almost been entirely sold, material storage has been emptied, I am missing a number of items from my storage and all my money is gone....and won't be restored.



My main has been ruined and that is what I cannot take, he had the best weapon's I could get him perfect staffs and wand/offhand for each build type and the rest of his inventory is gone, 935 hours out of 2,104 total time played all for nothing. I could have taken the rest the money, the materials and the other missing items, but this is to much.



I was looking forward to playing again...and now I simply won't be.

[Ramante]

MorGothic wrote...
I got my Guild Wars account back today...and I wish I hadn't.

I'm so sorry for you MG, that's just terrible.
Pretty stupid that they refuse to fix things for you.
*hugs*