35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Sannox]

@ejoslin I did initially think that he was starting to fall in love with Rinna, but not quite there. But then he seems to be admitting that he was in love with her if you use that line. It's difficult to dismiss when he's so wary of love. I don't think he let her die out of not feeling enough for her. Maybe it's the other way around. He says he was frightened by what he felt for her, and (it seems to follow) because of that, he 'readily agreed' that she should die.

Then there's the line where you say that he had no way of knowing she was innocent, and he answers 'Of course not. I didn't care to know'. For some reason, he wanted her to die, and I think he's saying it's because he was 'frightened' of what he felt for her. He didn't just let her die - he encouraged it.

ETA: Top of page.   Need picture.

(Why would he pretend to the warden that he felt more for Rinna than he did?)

Modifié par Sannox, 15 avril 2010 - 11:57 .

[Aroihkin]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Aroihkin wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

soignee wrote...

RIGHT. I AM WRITING. YEP. TOTALLY WRITING YOU GUIS.
>.>
...someone inspire me to write. Threats and bribery works well.

I'll stop stalking you.

Lies!

She doesn't need to know that.

[Aroihkin]

Sannox wrote...

@ejoslin I did initially think that he was starting to fall in love with Rinna, but not quite there. But then he seems to be admitting that he was in love with her if you use that line. It's difficult to dismiss when he's so wary of love. I don't think he let her die out of not feeling enough for her. Maybe it's the other way around. He says he was frightened by what he felt for her, and (it seems to follow) because of that, he 'readily agreed' that she should die.

Then there's the line where you say that he had no way of knowing she was innocent, and he answers 'Of course not. I didn't care to know'. For some reason, he wanted her to die, and I think he's saying it's because he was 'frightened' of what he felt for her. He didn't just let her die - he encouraged it.

I'm wondering if he was in love but didn't know at the time that's what it was. Like he gets with the Warden when he doesn't want to sleep with them, but with even more confusion because he hadn't dealt with it at all before.

Or perhaps he suspected, even, but since love is bad...

Modifié par Aroihkin, 15 avril 2010 - 11:55 .

[ejoslin]

@Sannox We will never agree on that point, and it's part of what makes the game so interesting. I was actually more talking about the second point, how the relationship with the warden goes. It can be that it starts off completely casual for him, but it doesn't have to.

You can start from the beginning by making a commitment about the future to him, and him saying he wants the same. As lovers. To continue after the blight. And this is before you can go to the tent. You don't HAVE to go that route, though. You can also just tell him you want to be having mad sex with him. Or that you have no clue what will happen between the two of them.

Even if your conversation with Wynne, you can tell her it's just one-day-at-a -time, or you can tell her he's special. When she apologizes, you can tell her that he's been looking at your warden like that from the beginning. But you don't have to.

Edit: The thing is, Zevran pretty much admits to the warden he doesn't know what love is, that he has never felt for anyone what he feels for her (or him).  In the VO notes it says he's embarrassed that he knows nothing of love.  

Second edit: You do have to wonder, he refers to Taliesen as a friend as well, but then later says that in the Crows there are no such things as friends.  I think what Zevran feels for a FRIEND warden is more than what he felt for Taliesen and Rinna, much less a lover, who it looks like he falls hard and fast for.  What he will trust a lover with, how quickly that happens, is pretty telling to me.  I think the warden, as a friend or a lover, teaches him what feeling really is, if that makes sense.

Of course, that's just the way I see the character.  YMMV! 

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 avril 2010 - 12:05 .

[Aroihkin]

I figure there's friends in the Crows, and then there's friends who won't slit your throat. =_=

Which makes sense with that Gauntlet comment!

Modifié par Aroihkin, 15 avril 2010 - 12:05 .

[Sannox]

@Ejoslin, yes, I agree, although I tend to think the line about being confused since the first tent time shows that something was going on from that point (although neither of you need to know it). That could be right near the beginning, or it could be later.

@Aroikhin Yes, I think the 'love is bad' thing gets in the way. I don't know what he knew at the time, but he seemed to not want to know. By the time he meets the warden, he does know he loved her or he'd deny it when the warden brings it up, I think. But yes, I think he must have suspected at the time, hence the extreme reaction.

@Ejoslin I wanted to think some more about your edits, but I'm rushing off (the 'friends' thing is something I keep coming back to, because he seems a little inconsistent with that).    I think he wasn't able to love Rinna (or Taliesin) in the same way he loves the warden because of where he was in his life.   It needs Rinna's death to get him to the point where he can have the relationship he does with the warden.  

Modifié par Sannox, 15 avril 2010 - 12:10 .

[Minaleth]

Sannox wrote...
He loved Rinna,

I am not sure about this. It was actually already discussed here, but anyway. I'll tell you more when I get to this dialogue in mu current playthrough. Now I am more with ejoslin in this - Zevran never says explicitly that he loved her. Maybe he would never say that even if he did. But I think he just admitted that he fell in love with her and that may have turned into love if he haven't let Taliesen do the kill. My interpretation.
As for Taliesen - I don't know because there really is not enough info, but I would say yes, their relationship was different from Rinna, and due to in game circumstances Zev/Taliesin is also less forming his view on love than Rinna was... so maybe therefor the lack of reflection on that matter. Also the Warden was there when Taliesen story concluded so there is only little to tell actually. 

Edit: in my book falling in love is different from loving someone. We even have slightly different verbs for that.

Modifié par Minaleth, 15 avril 2010 - 02:34 .

[Aroihkin]

I'm pretty on the fence on Rinna/love, it's not something I've really mulled over yet. It strikes me as something he didn't realize until she was begging for her life, though, and by then perhaps it was too late. Whatever "it" is, I'm not sure.

I dunno, it's crazy-o-clock here and the tea on my desk needs to permeate my brain. XD It's not doing me any good in my cup!

[ejoslin]

*grin*

I think Zevran thought he and Taliesen were friends until he became friends with the warden and learned what a real friendship was.

I think Zevran thought he was in love with Rinna until he fell in love with the warden and learned what love really was.

I think I need MUCH more coffee. Facing fixing Leliana is not for the fuzzy minded!

Edit: I do agree with Minaleth that falling in love with someone is different from loving them.  He was just too quick to let Rinna die for me to believe it was love.  There was definitely something there, I'm NOT saying there wasn't, and it was real, and it was scary.  

Had Rinna accused Taliesen of the same thing, I don't think Zevran would have had the same reaction -- at ALL.  See, I don't get the feeling he let her die because he cared for her the way he did.  He honestly felt she betrayed them, and that was why he let her die.  It was only after he learned she really was innocent that made him realize exactly what HE was.

I'm not sure that made sense at all, though.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 avril 2010 - 12:37 .

[jenovan]

Oh dear... a Rinna discussion.  I agree with a lot of what everyone  is saying, so I'll sit back here and watch the tennis ball bouncing back and forth for a bit.

ejoslin wrote...

I think I need MUCH more coffee. Facing fixing Leliana is not for the fuzzy minded!

Fixed it for you.

[Aroihkin]

Oh god, you're going to try to fix Leliana? But I thought you didn't want to re-write the lore? ;P

I'd hide from any lurking Leliana fans, but honestly, that character drives me nuts.

Also, her sugary-sweet "Oh! How dear of you!" makes me want to punch something.

SO I DUNNO LOL. There's a lot of different stuff that bugs me about her. I keep trying to give her a chance and then I run away doing this:

http://l-userpic.liv...85703074/525809

...And also, I'm cranky without enough caffeine. =_=

TL;DR fixing Leliana? LOL. I'll be over here playing taps for you.

[Aroihkin]

jenovan wrote...

Oh dear... a Rinna discussion.  I agree with a lot of what everyone  is saying, so I'll sit back here and watch the tennis ball bouncing back and forth for a bit.

ejoslin wrote...

I think I need MUCH more coffee. Facing fixing Leliana is not for the fuzzy minded!

Fixed it for you.

You said it better than I did!

[ejoslin]

Hah, the changes I made are very small. Aside from my old change, fixing the loop in her conversation about Zevran, she will now act like she's hardened if she is in a couple of instances. And no more dumping a warden she's in involved with if getting married. Though that causes a small bug -- when that conversation is supposed to come up, if you click on her, she won't respond once. Then she's back to normal. I'm trying to decide whether that's a deal breaker or not.

@jenovan Thanks!  You're right!  See, I do need more coffee!

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 avril 2010 - 12:46 .

[ejoslin]

*groan* Even though I have said I don't want to change the lore, there IS a change I want to make to Leliana. I need opinions. And a male character willing to beta test OR send me the save.

This is part of the conversation Leliana has with a male character if she's at care and you've had sex with Zevran:

Leliana:I didn't know you were... fond of other men. Not that... not that there's anything wrong with it, but I had no idea.

Answers here are:
He told you what? That a lie!
To tell the truth, I didn't either, until he came along.
Well, there is something to be said for trying new things.
Dear Maker, please don't tell anyone else.

What I'd LIKE to add is a response like this:
Warden: Well, I am.

And then have her follow up with:
Leliana: Oh. I see. So you've... made your decision, I suppose?

So is that too much of a change? I find it a bit offensive that a warden who is bisexual from the start (/wave Dairren) does not have that choice.

Edit: I can make two optional files on this, one with the change and one without I suppose.  But is it even a necessary change?  Loading in DT's Leliana file always makes me have to reload my entire database when I'm done with it.

Second edit: Or if someone has a suggestion for better wording, I'd love to hear it.  Maybe something like:

Warden: I am. I should have told you sooner.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 avril 2010 - 01:02 .

[jenovan]

Ejoslin, I think plenty of people playing not just bi, but gay male characters (who have been ninja'ed by Leliana) would be so happy for a change to that.  Those answers, as they are, shocked me when I first saw them...

[Charsen]

EJ -- yes those choices have bothered CZ and i when we have discussed them before. they are offensive in a typical kind of way



your response addition would be nice to add/replace one of them, imo

[Aroihkin]

I'd leave it at just "Well, I am." or "I am." so that it doesn't have to be that you should have told Leliana cuz she has to know everything.

But yeah, adding something would be groovy. I was kind of DX on my mage dude when that came up.

[ejoslin]

Ok, I'll put them in as an optional file.. I think I can console Aedan to the proper approval levels.  And I'll stick with "I am."  You're right, her approval level when you get that conversation is not high enough that you owe her any real explanations.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 avril 2010 - 01:07 .

[blademaster7]

Might as well post this here.



I was checking Riordan and found more dialogue missing from the game



1. A conversation between Anora and Loghain at Redcliffe right after Riordan leaves for his room. Doesn't trigger. Dialogue is misplaced in the Landsmeet folder instead of Climax.



2. A brief line of Shale at the gates. After Riordan says "we're doing better than I hoped"



3. A cut-scene is missing where he says his final words. "I am sorry Wardens, I failed" or something like that...

[ejoslin]

Those changes are a bit ambitious for me right now, blademaster7. I'll look at the shale one, but it could be meant to trigger if you don't have certain people in your party.  The other two would take major major work.

Edit: *grin* I hope that didn't sound short.  I didn't mean that in a snotty way at all. 

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 avril 2010 - 01:24 .

[sami jo]

ejoslin wrote...

*groan* Even though I have said I don't want to change the lore, there IS a change I want to make to Leliana. I need opinions. And a male character willing to beta test OR send me the save.

This is part of the conversation Leliana has with a male character if she's at care and you've had sex with Zevran:

Leliana:I didn't know you were... fond of other men. Not that... not that there's anything wrong with it, but I had no idea.

Answers here are:
He told you what? That a lie!
To tell the truth, I didn't either, until he came along.
Well, there is something to be said for trying new things.
Dear Maker, please don't tell anyone else.

What I'd LIKE to add is a response like this:
Warden: Well, I am.

And then have her follow up with:
Leliana: Oh. I see. So you've... made your decision, I suppose?

So is that too much of a change? I find it a bit offensive that a warden who is bisexual from the start (/wave Dairren) does not have that choice.

Edit: I can make two optional files on this, one with the change and one without I suppose.  But is it even a necessary change?  Loading in DT's Leliana file always makes me have to reload my entire database when I'm done with it.

Second edit: Or if someone has a suggestion for better wording, I'd love to hear it.  Maybe something like:

Warden: I am. I should have told you sooner.

Oh please do! I HATE the responses there.  I even have a character I can happily test it with.

[blademaster7]

Shale's fix is really simple.



Sten, Oghren and Wynne also have lines and they work. Shale has the wrong flag.



GEN_SHALE_IN_PARTY



It should be GEN_SHALE_RECRUITED



Anyway, I understand those are meaningless... I should let you work on more important matters

[ejoslin]

@blademaster7 nonono, gah, I'm sorry. I do appreciate you pointing this stuff out!  I've been working with Leliana this morning and that makes me cranky!

@sami jo Do you mind testing a non-dt version? I want to get that working before loading DT and getting that, because once I load the DT file, it's THERE until I remove it. Because removing it means reloading the entire database, which is a complete pain.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 avril 2010 - 01:38 .

[soignee]

Aroihkin wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Aroihkin wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

soignee wrote...

RIGHT. I AM WRITING. YEP. TOTALLY WRITING YOU GUIS.
>.>
...someone inspire me to write. Threats and bribery works well.

I'll stop stalking you.

Lies!

She doesn't need to know that.

GUIS I'VE WRITTEN SOMETHING. NOT READY TO BE PUBLISHED BUT-

oh. Uh. I'm just going to shuffle off from the thread for a bit.

Arooooo save me Aroooooo your thigh boots of awesome will protect meeeeeeeee

[gemc123]

*crawls out from under her lurker desk*

I thought I might introduce myself. I've been lurking researching important semi-naked zevran lore on this thread so much the past couple of days its bordlining on the stalkerish. Ok it IS stalkerish, but you guys seem like the kind who aren't scared off by that so, here I am! Actually I was going to post a couple a days ago, but then I saw this:



And my face melted off.

Thankfully I regathered my face so I can post here. If i could bake I'd send you lots of lovely virtual muffins - especially ejoslin and charsen for all your wonderful modding! - but I can't. I can however make you all some nice homemade pickled red cabbage! mmm you know you want that over some silly muffins!

Okay okay I'll stop rambling, too muck coffee methinks. And I'll post something much more coherent and relevant later on, I just thought I'd get the very embarassing introduction out the way. Just wanted to say its nice to find other people who appreaciate the very well written character of zevran as much as I do!

*crawls back under lurker desk*

Edit: OMFG I just read this and just went CRINGE CRINGE CRINGE. ugh, I hate being the new guy lolz. Oh and soignee, ilu. Missa is teh sex.

Modifié par gemc123, 15 avril 2010 - 01:44 .