35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabriana]

A lot has to do with the fact that finally - finally, female players get to have worth-while romances, as well as gays/lesbians. In my opinion, that has been a long time in coming.

I can't play ME for some reason, it just won't start up on my laptop, so I can't speak about the romances there, but all in all, the only worth-while romance for women so far was Valen.

Maybe I'm too picky, but I didn't like many of the others. Gann was alright, but there was still to much of "I have to give the answers he wants to hear".

Or maybe it's because I'm still bitter about Ha'er, and look how long ago that was

[Carliw]

Astranagant wrote...

Zevran is, to me, the biggest shortfall in terms of characters in DAO. Even after trudging through all his dialogue and events, he still feels like a two-dimensional "latin lover" stereotype.

Hm, I understand where you're coming from. For a long time, Zevran can be seen as a very shallow person and a horribly stereotyped character. I kept wondering if they're making him look so stereotyped and kinky on purpose; if he's meant to be an offensive representational of a gay/bisexual. Then even longer I kept wondering if he was perhaps a parody of that stereotype, because he works wonderfully as a construct of that kind, much better than as a character/person.

Nevertheless, once you come to a certain point in your relationship with him, be it romance or friendship, he shows himself in a completely different light.
It can easily be explained that this 'latino lover' bravado is in great part a persona he puts up to survive (and it worked well so far), and even Zevran himself has ended partially believing that's all there is to him (it's both scary and dangerous for him to look at or show what's behind the playboy persona).
Zevran is first and foremost a survivor, and he learned well how to suppress his remorse, affection, and similar feelings. He thought the Crows for a while, tried to escape, but then he resigned - there was no way out, especially not for a child.

One does not survive in the Crows by being nice and delicate. Those who think killing to survive is excusable, should consider this. Zevran has always wanted to leave the Crows but wasn't given the chance until he meets the PC. Second, he thinks assassins are a tactical choice more than anything else. We all kill in the game.

Several instances in the game show that he has never managed to suppress those feelings completely, though. I don't think the 'latino lover' stereotype includes the desire to change the lifestyle, or such loyalty and gratitude as Zevran shows if you treat him nicely.

Sabriana wrote...
He is, next to my dog, the most loyal companion there is, and I don't have to constantly support him, do/say nice things (even when it goes completely against my character), and so far, he's the only one who'll listen to reason.

I agree with this completely.

Sabriana wrote...
He also is the one who will take charge when confronted by the Crows. His line "And I'm not about to let that happen" all but says that.

I actually tried the line where you say more or less, "Whatever, I'll kill you all, then," and Zevran still refused to side with Taliesen, and instead he fought in my group.

Those who were betrayed by Zevran may be angry because of it, but between all characters, Zevran is the purest example of "What you give is what you receive."
Ignore him, and he'll ignore you. Be mean to him, and he'll be mean to you. Give him your friendship, and he'll give you his. Be loyal to him, and he'll be loyal up to the point of dying for you. Show him love, and he'll reciprocate. Push him, and he'll snap.
As simple as that.

Sabriana wrote...
I remember the very first time my PC fell for him, and that was when he told her that his mother was "his first victim, so to speak." His facial expression is heart-breaking.

I think this line explains a lot about him and about how he really views his job. I think Wynne may be onto something when she thinks he regrets his past actions but is just deflecting the question.

Sabriana wrote...
He also never complains about his terrible life, but he does appreciate compassion.

He also shows compassion, although it might come across as joking (Antivan poetry etc) or even cruelty (the lyrium-affected dwarf in the Deep Roads, Ruck or whatever his name was).

Modifié par Carliw, 03 janvier 2010 - 06:01 .

[Sabriana]

I felt really, really bad about letting him kill Ruck, but he's right. Better to end it now, with a clean and easy death than let the poor guy go on like that.

Hey, they shoot horses, don't they?

He's not afraid to make the hard choices, and he follows up on them. He's the only one who shows that he's capable of that as well.

Edited to add: I was at first a bit shocked when he fell on Harrowmont's rep like a ton of bricks, but then I somewhat agreed with him. Harrowmont allowed his two best fighters to back out without doing anything about it. A true leader would've told them to suck it up or face the dire consequences of disobeying a direct order. No matter what reasons the fighters had, Harrowmont let them walk all over him.

In his mind, that is inexcusable. Remember, the only way for him to walk away from the Crows is either death, or hooking up with someone the Crows will think twice about challenging.

Modifié par Sabriana, 03 janvier 2010 - 06:13 .

[MassEffect762]

He's funny, I'll give him that and a rotten bastard.

Never cared for his romance(mostly looks, hated his face) after installing a face morph I realized he had a good "luv" scene, probably the best.

<--- + Zev + Leli all night long YAH BABY YAH!

Zev mod:
http://www.dragonage...file.php?id=365

Leli mod:
http://www.dragonage...file.php?id=324

Modifié par MassEffect762, 03 janvier 2010 - 06:14 .

[Carliw]

Sabriana wrote...

I felt really, really bad about letting him kill Ruck, but he's right. Better to end it now, with a clean and easy death than let the poor guy go on like that.
Hey, they shoot horses, don't they.

I didn't always have Zevran in my party during that, and in one playtrough I didn't even find Ruck, but if I remember correctly, one of my 'good' characters who was romantically involved with Zev, didn't let it happen, because if the wretched creature wanted to live, it wasn't Zevran's call to decide otherwise. I can't even remember how much Zev disapproved; I'll have to replay it.  XD

Modifié par Carliw, 07 janvier 2010 - 11:11 .

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

I felt really, really bad about letting him kill Ruck, but he's right. Better to end it now, with a clean and easy death than let the poor guy go on like that.
Hey, they shoot horses, don't they.
He's not afraid to make the hard choices, and he follows up on them. He's the only one who shows that he's capable of that as well.

That is the truth.  Others may offer their opinions, but often what they say is lip service (like when Alistair recommends killing Conner, but is furious if you actually do so).  Wynne wants you to live up to some image she has of the gray wardens and gets mad when you don't do so.  Zevran accepts the PC as she is.  I chose Bhelen the first time I played because of what Zevran said -- I probably would have selected Harrowmont because I was feeling so played.

Oghren is as loyal, though.  You can choose to kill his wife and while he doesn't like it, he'll do it. Or you can convince his wife to commit suicide and he still sticks with you.  The difference with Oghran is, of course, is it's not a "reap what you sow" as you point out it is with Zevran.  Oghran's with you because he has nothing else at all as he lost his wife, his family, his house, his honor, was in danger of losing his caste because of all that.  Zevran makes it clear from the start that afterwards he wants to stay with the PC.  Much better than Alistair who, when confronted with the future after having sex basically tells the PC she's good at "asking the tough questions."  With Zevran, it wasn't a tough question, it was a given.

I'm probably repeating everything I've ever said about this at this point!

[Sabriana]

@ Carliw



Hmm, I remember that I was at first appalled and wanted to stop him, but the game gave me no choice but to let Zevran go ahead.

[ejoslin]

Carliw wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

I felt really, really bad about letting him kill Ruck, but he's right. Better to end it now, with a clean and easy death than let the poor guy go on like that.
Hey, they shoot horses, don't they.

I didn't always had Zevran in my party during that, and in one playtrough I didn't even find Ruck, but if I remember correctly, one of my 'good' characters who was romantically involved with Zev, didn't let it happen, because if the wretched creature wanted to live, it wasn't Zevran's call to decide otherwise. I can't even remember how much Zev disapproved; I'll have to replay it.  XD

Really?  I'm never given a choice about it once Zevran and Oghren tell me I should kill him.  It's possible to avoid them suggesting it, though; in that case, there's no disapproval. 

[Carliw]

ejoslin wrote...
Really?  I'm never given a choice about it once Zevran and Oghren tell me I should kill him.  It's possible to avoid them suggesting it, though; in that case, there's no disapproval. 

ejoslin wrote...
Hmm, I remember that I was at first appalled and wanted to stop him, but the game gave me no choice but to let Zevran go ahead.

Hm, it has been a while since that, so I may have mixed it up. It's possible that I avoided the suggestion itself. I'll check if I have a save around that parts with that character and try it again. (Orzammar and especially the Deep Roads are in general unpleasant for me, so I try to get out as quickly as possible.)

Modifié par Carliw, 03 janvier 2010 - 06:26 .

[Sabriana]

ejoslin wrote...

<snip>

Zevran makes it clear from the start that afterwards he wants to stay with the PC.  Much better than Alistair who, when confronted with the future after having sex basically tells the PC she's good at "asking the tough questions."  With Zevran, it wasn't a tough question, it was a given.
I'm probably repeating everything I've ever said about this at this point!

Ah yes, another great point. It was very surprising that Zevran is the one who wants some sort of commitment even before having sex, while Alistair doesn't even make one afterward.

As for the last part, don't worry, I've the same feeling about my statements.

[Topaz Bee]

ejoslin wrote...
Really?  I'm never given a choice about it once Zevran and Oghren tell me I should kill him.  It's possible to avoid them suggesting it, though; in that case, there's no disapproval. 

I think if you talk to him and gain access to his store, you can cancel out of the dialog from the sale window. I'm guessing it's when you say 'goodbye' to him or whatever that the choice triggers. *shrug* I always keep him alive, so I could repeatedly run around the Deep Roads, pick up junk and sell it back to him for moneys(because there's a lot of junk left in my wake XD).

[ejoslin]

*grin* Why do dwarf females get the best kiss from Zevran I wonder. I think he especially likes the taboo aspect of it. I bet the male love story is more touching than the female one, though you don't see guys discussing it. So next play through is with a male character, though it will be tough for me to take it seriously! I did do one play through as a male, was thoroughly confused by Leliana and her mood swings, ended up with Alistair hating my PC's guts, and Morrigan kept messing him up! The story definitely had a different feel, though.

[jenovan]

ejoslin wrote...

*grin* Why do dwarf females get the best kiss from Zevran I wonder. I think he especially likes the taboo aspect of it. I bet the male love story is more touching than the female one, though you don't see guys discussing it. So next play through is with a male character, though it will be tough for me to take it seriously! I did do one play through as a male, was thoroughly confused by Leliana and her mood swings, ended up with Alistair hating my PC's guts, and Morrigan kept messing him up! The story definitely had a different feel, though.

I'm finding the male romance really interesting because of all the little checks, and Zevran being quite careful about boundaries.  I'm really curious now about the difference between the male and female PC's romancing of Zevran -- not only his actions, but the choices the PC has.  Obviously the male has a lot of "I'm not into that", "no way", etc. options to choose from, although I suppose you could probably apply most of those to the female, too...

Actually, there's one specific one I'm curious about...  I just got the massage invitation from Zevran (woo! , and a few lines in, one of my options was "I'm... not sure about this, Zevran..."  Does the female PC have an option like that?  It fit well, in character, for my bi-curious male elf, but I don't know if it was meant to be that kind of hesitation, or just a general sort of "maybe this is a bad idea" for all PCs.

[Sylph_14]

Yeah, ladies have that dialog option, which he replies with something about you deserving some fun. Interestingly enough, if you turn him down in that convo, he apologizes >.>

[ejoslin]

Sylph_14 wrote...

Yeah, ladies have that dialog option, which he replies with something about you deserving some fun. Interestingly enough, if you turn him down in that convo, he apologizes >.>

Actually, that would be very much in character.  I bet it also stops the romance.

[Sylph_14]

ejoslin wrote...

Sylph_14 wrote...

Yeah, ladies have that dialog option, which he replies with something about you deserving some fun. Interestingly enough, if you turn him down in that convo, he apologizes >.>

Actually, that would be very much in character.  I bet it also stops the romance.

Oh, I know ^.^ I found it interesting because to me it seemed a pretty clear indicator of just how sincere he was about his feelings for the player. It was almost kind of cute, in the sad adorable kicked puppy kindda way :/

I seriouly play around with convo options way to much D:

[ejoslin]

Sylph_14 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Sylph_14 wrote...

Yeah, ladies have that dialog option, which he replies with something about you deserving some fun. Interestingly enough, if you turn him down in that convo, he apologizes >.>

Actually, that would be very much in character.  I bet it also stops the romance.

Oh, I know ^.^ I found it interesting because to me it seemed a pretty clear indicator of just how sincere he was about his feelings for the player. It was almost kind of cute, in the sad adorable kicked puppy kindda way :/

I seriouly play around with convo options way to much D:

Me too.  Often my favorite responses don't gain my character much approval, if any at all.  Like when Zevran compares his life to that of my human noble's life.  I will always get major disapproval with my answer to that one, though I understand the point he was trying to make.  The human noble, afterall, may be the second child, but is raised in a loving home -- it's not until her family is slaughtered that her life becomes difficult.  My dwarf noble will also ask how he can compare their lives, but my other characters can relate.  Of course, he's talking about them both being survivors and stronger and more skilled than most -- I think the words are "buffeted by fate and by excellence" -- as shaped by their life experiences.  

The PC and Zevran obviously feel a connection from the first time they meet as the PC can tell Alistair (and Alistair says that that is obvious or something like that).

What gets me most about Alistair -- just dumped him on my current play through (human noble, not sure if PC will become queen or not yet, but I'm curious about the second dialog that's possible if she becomes queen and I haven't seen it on a non-romanced Alistair marriage) -- is that he had to be reminded about the PC's family being killed.  As beautiful as the words Alistair says, and and tender and loving that they are, I don't think he ever really addresses whatever it was that brought the PC to the gray wardens. 

[Whisa]

ejoslin wrote...
What gets me most about Alistair -- just dumped him on my current play through (human noble, not sure if PC will become queen or not yet, but I'm curious about the second dialog that's possible if she becomes queen and I haven't seen it on a non-romanced Alistair marriage) -- is that he had to be reminded about the PC's family being killed.  As beautiful as the words Alistair says, and and tender and loving that they are, I don't think he ever really addresses whatever it was that brought the PC to the gray wardens. 

That's always been a ******-off point for me, too.  Especially when he starts whining about how one person dies, or how you do something that's not sunshine and light.

My dalish elf was certainly not going to sunshine and light through being FORCED into being a warden and being dragged away from her clan, nor from her lover being taken and (to her mind) devoured by a mindless enemy she now had to face every day and be reminded of it. 

My human noble knew about people dying suddenly - first her family, then her king and all the wardens.  Yet he has to be reminded I think three times at least that yes, she's seen more death of people that are at least somewhat close to her than he has recently.  And has to make all his decisions for him, on top of that.

[Carliw]

ejoslin wrote...
Actually, that would be very much in character.  I bet it also stops the romance.

Depends, if you refuse by saying, "We're not exactly alone," you don't even lose approval and the romance stays as it is.
EDIT: The disapproval depends on the other choices in the dialogue too, but you don't lose approval for being bashful and refusing the invitation because of it.

Modifié par Carliw, 07 janvier 2010 - 11:30 .

[ejoslin]

Carliw wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Actually, that would be very much in character.  I bet it also stops the romance.

Depends, if you refuse by saying, "We're not exactly alone," you don't even lose approval and the romance stays as it is.

Hmmmm, I'll have to try this.  I normally don't even get to the point where he asks   

[Sylph_14]

ejoslin wrote...

Carliw wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Actually, that would be very much in character.  I bet it also stops the romance.

Depends, if you refuse by saying, "We're not exactly alone," you don't even lose approval and the romance stays as it is.

Hmmmm, I'll have to try this.  I normally don't even get to the point where he asks   

At exactly 71 approval he'll offer a sexy massage ;D

Modifié par Sylph_14, 03 janvier 2010 - 11:04 .

[Carliw]

Sylph_14 wrote...

Oh, I know ^.^ I found it interesting because to me it seemed a pretty clear indicator of just how sincere he was about his feelings for the player. It was almost kind of cute, in the sad adorable kicked puppy kindda way :/

I seriouly play around with convo options way to much D:

He seems to be very understanding of the PC's predicament and choices, no matter what those choices are.

There is no such thing as playing too much with convo options. As long as it's fun, it's not too much.

jenovan wrote...
I'm finding the male romance really interesting because of all the
little checks, and Zevran being quite careful about boundaries.

I like it also because a great deal of cheesy compliments never happens.

Modifié par Carliw, 03 janvier 2010 - 11:17 .

[jenovan]

Sylph_14 wrote...

At exactly 71 approval he'll offer a sexy massage ;D

Huh.. I had to get him veeeery far up (I can't tell the exact numbers, I'm on PS3, but it's past the beginning of the last "bar") for him to offer.  That feels like it should be past 71..? but I could be quite wrong.  

(Believe me, I kept checking... XD)

Carliw wrote...
I like it also because a great deal of cheesy compliments never happens.

Hehe, yes, there just seems to be an occasional "handsome" thrown in there now and again.  Zevran's quite direct, but I wouldn't consider most of his male-directed comments too cheesy. ;D

Modifié par jenovan, 03 janvier 2010 - 11:24 .

[Carliw]

jenovan wrote...
Huh.. I had to get him veeeery far up (I can't tell the exact numbers, I'm on PS3, but it's past the beginning of the last "bar") for him to offer.  That feels like it should be past 71..? but I could be quite wrong.  

(Believe me, I kept checking... XD)


Hehe, yes, there just seems to be an occasional "handsome" thrown in there now and again.  Zevran's quite direct, but I wouldn't consider most of his male-directed comments too cheesy. ;D

It must be 70 or 70+, IDK how much, because I'm not that good at micromanaging the approval trough gifts and conversation options to determine it while playing. (And it didn't occure to me to try feeding him gifts that net +1 approval at a time...)

Ah, you're right, I should rephrase myself - no cheesy compliment takes place in that case.

Modifié par Carliw, 03 janvier 2010 - 11:33 .

[Gilsa]

I'm going to take advantage of the wealth of information being shared by all you lovely romantics and ask a quick question! I'm on a fresh playthrough (so I can do the Ostagar DLC relatively early in the game) and planning on an Alistair romance with Anora as sole ruler. Is there a marginal difference between non-hardened and hardened Alistair when Anora is the ruler? I mean, I know he fights harder to be king (discovered this in the playthrough where I was going to make him king anyway), but is he going to be crabby towards my character about the decision if he's hardened? I remember him being grateful he wasn't put in that position when he was non-hardened. Just wondering what the flip side of the coin is like.