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[Sabriana]

Hearing Isolde with headphones on. Now there's a nightmare....

[bri193]

Sabriana wrote...

10 Germans speaking English can have 10 different accents along a large scale.

I work at a larger international European agency, so very familiar with what you say ...
With German I find it depends most on where the person is from. Baviarian and southern accents are much 'softer', with the most northern being harsher.  It is the same with Dutch

[Addai]

Sabriana wrote...

It's easy to misplace accents, trust me. I have an accent when speaking English. I am German, but people often can't place me there. I've been asked if I was French, Dutch, Swedish, amongst other nationalities. Perhaps it's because I do not have a harsh accent, like the typical Germans sound in US movies

I have to ask- do you think the guy who speaks up at the Landsmeet about Ostagar is a German speaker?  I like him, and try to place that accent.  This is the one who says "A few of us are curious, Loghain, about precisely what happened at Ostagar."

It's too bad that Zevran's accent is off-putting to those more familiar with Italian etc., at least this one poster.  It seems that Riordan's and Leliana's have the opposite effect.  I know those actors are native French speakers, whereas I'm guessing Isolde's and Marjolaine's are "fake."  I like Jon Curry's voice, though I certainly wouldn't have objected to a native Italian speaker doing the voice work, either.

[Monica21]

This conversation is enough to make me wish Zevran was from Orlais, if only so Gilles Marini could voice him. *happy sigh*

[Sialater]

I am not a native speaker of French, but I've studied it since I was 12 (believe me, it's been a lifetime). I do find Leliana's and Riordan's easier to listen to than Isolde's rather ridiculous one. And since I've heard a washed-out French (via English) accent in real life many times, those characters sound best to me.



If the Spanish and/or Italian speakers find Zevran that grating I can completely understand. I disagree, but I understand. If he's supposed to be somewhat based on Antonio Banderas' Puss 'n' Boots in Shrek, then the accent is Spanish, not Italian.



Calling something "Latin" is misleading. It basically means any language descended from Latin, I'd think. Portugese, French, Spanish, Romanian, Italian... all are "Latin/Romance" languages.

[Sabriana]

I don't know Addai, I've not paid close enough attention, but I'll try and see if I have a save. I'm now curious myself. For me, personally it's the voice. I love that voice, I am also a fan of Star Trek Voyager, and this was a very pleasant surprise to me.



@ Monica

Personally, I love talking to French men, but can you imagine Zevran having a French accent? Poor guy gets bashed around enough for being a bi-sexual elf, think what those people would have to say if he had a french accent. Not many homophobes would stop short of insulting a whole nation, just so they could say Zevran is a "sleazy, ****goty, french wh**e".

[ejoslin]

I suppose calling someone Latino, if you're not in an area that has a large Hispanic population, can be misleading. This is more a regional communication issue, not a basic understanding of what romance languages are. Where I am, there is a specific meaning to that term which obviously is regional. I meant no generalizations by it.

[Addai]

I suppose we can point out that there is no "Fereldan" accent, either, and that American/Canadian and British voice actors are used interchangeably. Though correct me if I'm wrong that all the nobility speak more-or-less-patrician English. Besides being convenient in terms of actor availability, it probably is a conscious choice. The game world is supposed to be familiar but not familiar. If all native French speakers were used for Orlesians, you would think Orlais=France, when it doesn't. Ferelden is England but not England, Antiva is Italy (Venice, really) but not Italy, etc.

Modifié par Addai67, 08 février 2010 - 05:30 .

[MorningBird]

Cuddlezarro wrote...
if you harden Leliena she openly admits that the chantry life bored her and that "vision" of hers was nothing more than a way to gain attention and an excuse to leave.

Yes, because the confrontation with Marjorlaine makes her second guess herself.  If you take her with you on the Urn of Sacred Ashes it's established again that this is a great fear of hers: that her vision is nothing more than a fabrication stemming from a need for attention.

If it's something that's constantly on her mind, it wouldn't take much to push her towards that way of thinking.  It's only true, however, if you allow her to believe that she's not capable of being anything more than what Marjorlaine was, but that's just a player perspective.  You could easily harden her for positive reasons as well, obviously.

Cuddlezarro wrote...
also compared to Zevrans life Leli did have it ALOT better yes she was betrayed by the person who loved her but she also grew up in a noble house and raised by a woman who cared for her, Zevran had none of that at all ontop of the whole "sexually abused as a child" (and he was since I doubt those massage techniques he learned are anything of the chaste variety)

I don't doubt that out of all of the characters, Zevran debatably had the worst childhood (and possibly young adulthood) of them all.  What I don't understand is this perspective that other characters should stop complaining, aren't as interesting, or should stop looking for love in the MC because they weren't traumatized as a child.

If all the characters were the same--that would be bland.

... On a side note, I agree with you about those massages.

Cuddlezarro wrote...
I constantly tell her every single play through im not interested in her, with Zevran or Alistair or morrigan you can tell them "no im not interested" and they will quit but leliena just persists and you get knocked with -20 approval for "cheating" on her when there was nothing to begin with I dont condemn her just for being clingy I condemn her because I cant stand her character period

I've tried romancing her and unlike Zevran who I originally did not like at all and surprised me greatly when I actually gave him the time of day Leliena just sank lower and lower on my opinion scale

Leliana's only ever pursued an interest in my character when I played as a female Warden, oddly enough.  xD  Maybe that's your problem?  The male 'love cues' always seemed very obvious to me, so I avoided them, and I was able to finish the game at 100% friendship without her hitting on my Warden once.

It's fine if you can't romance the character because she conflicts with your play style.  I can't romance Morrigan because I have trouble creating/playing characters that would realistically be 100% invested in a relationship with her (yet they can woo an assassin that's tried to kill them.  Wonders may never cease.)



In relevance to other comments regarding my post: I think people have somewhat misinterpreted what I meant by 'fresh'.

Obviously Zevran's riddled with emotional scars ranging from childhood to adulthood, but the events that led to him to confessing--or at least acknowledging--his regrets, those are fresh.

I think it's been brought up here before that had the Crows shown some sign that they valued Zevran--at least as an assassin--he may have stayed with them.  It's discovering that his life meant nothing to them, and that Rinna's meant nothing--despite the sheer amount of hardship he had to undergo in order to find some semblance of pride in being a Crow--that pushed him in the direction of a suicide mission.

It's Zevran's betrayal by the Crows that's fresh, not his emotional wounds.  Leliana, by comparison, hasn't jumped straight out of one life into the next.  She's had time to recover.  Zevran, on the other hand, only gets on the road to recovery after he joins.

[ejoslin]

Hmmmm, on a totally different subject, I ended up running my HNF that had Zevran at 69 care at the Taliesen encounter through the Arl's estate. I started by having her question Zevran about Taliesen which is a pretty major approval loss, but he says so much there, I can't resist it, especially since I rarely get the chance to question him (it is HARD keeping him below 70 when romancing him). Anyway, between that run and finishing up the conversations I had with him, even taking a couple of big approval dings deliberately, I still have him at 100 love and haven't done the Alienage yet. I swear, while romancing him it's pretty much impossible to keep that approval low.



The conversations actually flowed much better this way, though. I really liked it.

[ejoslin]

MorningBird wrote...

Obviously Zevran's riddled with emotional scars ranging from childhood to adulthood, but the events that led to him to confessing--or at least acknowledging--his regrets, those are fresh.

I think it's been brought up here before that had the Crows shown some sign that they valued Zevran--at least as an assassin--he may have stayed with them.  It's discovering that his life meant nothing to them, and that Rinna's meant nothing--despite the sheer amount of hardship he had to undergo in order to find some semblance of pride in being a Crow--that pushed him in the direction of a suicide mission.

It's Zevran's betrayal by the Crows that's fresh, not his emotional wounds.  Leliana, by comparison, hasn't jumped straight out of one life into the next.  She's had time to recover.  Zevran, on the other hand, only gets on the road to recovery after he joins.

No, they're not fresh.  You can tell in the stories he tells, that he has long-standing regrets.  And yes, what happened with the Crows and with Rinna sent his world crumbling around him, but IF you go for dialog choices that don't go for maximum approval, you will learn a lot more about him.  How being cold doesn't come naturally to him, that he IS scarred from his life, that he has deep regrets for many things that he's done.  You won't get these answers if you just go along with what he says, though.

Keep in mind, being an assassin is ALL he knows.  Look at the elves at Ostegar, how, while not slaves, they are obviously beaten on a regular basis and are completely cowed.  Shianni will comment how elves are killed daily in the streets for no reason at all and no one cares.  Elves have horrible lives.  But he does not -- he has a good life because, well, he's a skilled assassin.  It sets him apart from most elves for sure. 

When given a chance to escape the Crows, however, he jumps at it.  Had he succeeded at killing the Wardens, he would have stayed with the Crows (though it wasn't likely he would succeed).

Leliana made choices.  She LOVED being a bard.  She wasn't forced into this life -- she chose it.  She didn't leave it because she felt guilt over hunting men down and killing them.  She left because she was betrayed.  She not once says she regretted hunting down and killing men -- she said she enjoyed it.

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmmm, on a totally different subject, I ended up running my HNF that had Zevran at 69 care at the Taliesen encounter through the Arl's estate. I started by having her question Zevran about Taliesen which is a pretty major approval loss, but he says so much there, I can't resist it, especially since I rarely get the chance to question him (it is HARD keeping him below 70 when romancing him). Anyway, between that run and finishing up the conversations I had with him, even taking a couple of big approval dings deliberately, I still have him at 100 love and haven't done the Alienage yet. I swear, while romancing him it's pretty much impossible to keep that approval low.

The conversations actually flowed much better this way, though. I really liked it.

When do you get to question him about Taliesin?  I haven't ever seen that.

[Sabriana]

Going for the easy answers won't help much in finding out the truth about Zevran. On the other hand, losing approval with him is no big deal, because it's easy enough to gain it back and then some.

All the PC has to do is not be mean, nasty, or ignoring him.

I was quite touched when my PC told him to make a choice. He told her that he never was allowed to make any kind of choice for himself, he was always told what to do.

He's been a slave all his life, and yes, I do count the time up to age 7 as such. He is not cold, he has many regrets, reaching far back into his past. Godsamercy, the poor guy thinks he killed his own mother through being born. He calls her 'my first victim'. Yet, he still has a tender connection with her through the gloves. And even those were taken away from him.

How could he not go back to them if the Warden hadn't intervened? They owned him, after all.

[ejoslin]

You have to be romancing him, below 70, and he has to leave during the Taliesen fight. When you talk to him next, there are addition choices in the "Taliesen is dead, I'm free from the crows" dialog. You can tell him he should have stayed and fought. When he answers that by telling you Taliesen was a good friend, you can ask him, "A good friend, was he?" and learn more about their friendship, or you can tell him, "but you left me to face him," and he'll explain that he actually left Taliesen to face him, and that he knew you would win.



I can pull up the exact conversation if you'd like. It's sad, because Zevran is sad.

[Addai]

Ah, that's why I've never gotten it. I can't seem to get Zevran not to fight for me! It's a good "problem" to have. It is probably because, as you said, it's so hard to keep him that low of approval if you are romancing him. He has fought for my characters at less than 70 approval, but they were probably all "just friends" scenarios.

[Sandtigress]

I actually didn't know Zevran could leave the fight. Interesting...maybe my dwarf can pull that off...maybe not.

[Sialater]

I got that dialogue, too, but I'd dumped him for Alistair on my elf mage game, that he left Taliesin to face me. I told him I'd be severely put out if he left and suddenly I had full approval again. (I have the 360 version.)

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

Ah, that's why I've never gotten it. I can't seem to get Zevran not to fight for me! It's a good "problem" to have. It is probably because, as you said, it's so hard to keep him that low of approval if you are romancing him. He has fought for my characters at less than 70 approval, but they were probably all "just friends" scenarios.

I had a few conversations left  AND boots!  But even taking -26 in dings over two conversations, I still ended up being able to complete the romance after the Arl of Denerim's estate.

But even without the additonal Taliesen information, the Rinna story just works better after Taliesen.  I understand why he tells the Warden before if they're lovers, which actually lends credence to his feelings being far deeper than he's able to acknowledge.  But earning his friendship is as difficult as getting him to acknowledge his love.  Going either route is very fulfilling.

[Whitering]

Because if you are an elf why on earth would you sleep with a human?



Leliana thinks of elves as servants

Morrigan doesn't give a crap about anything except power

Alistair is a goodie two shoes human who doesn't even approve of you just killing werewolves who are hunting your kind mercilessly



Zevran has a raunchy side, no emotional attachment and is a decent rogue.

[ejoslin]

Sialater wrote...

I got that dialogue, too, but I'd dumped him for Alistair on my elf mage game, that he left Taliesin to face me. I told him I'd be severely put out if he left and suddenly I had full approval again. (I have the 360 version.)

Odd, it may be a platform difference then.  Because when I dumped him, I could not get him to leave.  And that was with approval ranging from +49 warm to + 68 warm.  I wonder if it was a romance bug as well.  It's a good conversation, though.  Very interesting.

[MorningBird]

ejoslin wrote...
No, they're not fresh.  You can tell in the stories he tells, that he has long-standing regrets.  And yes, what happened with the Crows and with Rinna sent his world crumbling around him, but IF you go for dialog choices that don't go for maximum approval, you will learn a lot more about him.  How being cold doesn't come naturally to him, that he IS scarred from his life, that he has deep regrets for many things that he's done.  You won't get these answers if you just go along with what he says, though.

I never really go for maximum dialog approval... especially where Zevran is concerned, as he's rather easy to garner approval with.  So I've heard many of the dialog choices you've hinted at.

Once again, I don't doubt that Zevran has many regrets in his life, but I'm only referring to one event here, the one regret he couldn't bury or ignore or shrug off (keep in mind, the PC can see that certain parts of Zevran's past are obviously painful to him, but Zevran himself is constantly trying to fool himself into believing that it wasn't 'as bad as he makes it sound').

But I don't think he regrets anything more than building up the delusion that he was valued by the Crows as an assassin and discovering that from start to finish he's pretty much been viewed as worthless by everyone.

ejoslin wrote...
Keep in mind, being an assassin is ALL he knows.  Look at the elves at Ostegar, how, while not slaves, they are obviously beaten on a regular basis and are completely cowed.  Shianni will comment how elves are killed daily in the streets for no reason at all and no one cares.  Elves have horrible lives.  But he does not -- he has a good life because, well, he's a skilled assassin.  It sets him apart from most elves for sure.

I am already aware.   CE is my favorite origin thus far.

ejoslin wrote...
When given a chance to escape the Crows, however, he jumps at it.  Had he succeeded at killing the Wardens, he would have stayed with the Crows (though it wasn't likely he would succeed).

True, he likely would have gone back to the Crows, but I doubt the knowledge that he was worthless in their eyes would have escaped him.  It's hard to tell what he would have done upon returning, but I've always assumed that he'd continue down a path of self-destruction until he was either killed or he found an out as good as the one the Warden provided.

ejoslin wrote...
Leliana made choices.  She LOVED being a bard.  She wasn't forced into this life -- she chose it.  She didn't leave it because she felt guilt over hunting men down and killing them.  She left because she was betrayed.  She not once says she regretted hunting down and killing men -- she said she enjoyed it.

Originally, my only point in connecting Leliana to Zevran was that they were both betrayed, and that the reason she can talk about enjoying her life as a bard so easily (and without remorse) is because she's had more time to put it behind her.

Whether or not she's truly put it behind her and 'regrets', or embraces the enjoyment and freedom she experianced as a bard are completely dependant on whether or not you harden her.  At least, IMO.

Modifié par MorningBird, 08 février 2010 - 06:27 .

[ejoslin]

Whitering wrote...

Zevran has a raunchy side, no emotional attachment and is a decent rogue.

Haven't finished the romance, have you

[Sialater]

ejoslin wrote...

Sialater wrote...

I got that dialogue, too, but I'd dumped him for Alistair on my elf mage game, that he left Taliesin to face me. I told him I'd be severely put out if he left and suddenly I had full approval again. (I have the 360 version.)

Odd, it may be a platform difference then.  Because when I dumped him, I could not get him to leave.  And that was with approval ranging from +49 warm to + 68 warm.  I wonder if it was a romance bug as well.  It's a good conversation, though.  Very interesting.

I don't know.  I do know that I looked at the bar before the gates and found out I was ending the game with both he and Alistair in the white.  I could not get any more approval from either of them.  While I got the Chancellor card, the dialogue with Zevran was the same as if I'd romanced him, despite him having left Taliesin to face my AW elf mage.

[ejoslin]

MorningBird wrote...

I never really go for maximum dialog approval... especially where Zevran is concerned, as he's rather easy to garner approval with.  So I've heard many of the dialog choices you've hinted at.

Once again, I don't doubt that Zevran has many regrets in his life, but I'm only referring to one event here, the one regret he couldn't bury or ignore or shrug off (keep in mind, the PC can see that certain parts of Zevran's past are obviously painful to him, but Zevran himself is constantly trying to fool himself into believing that it wasn't 'as bad as he makes it sound').

But I don't think he regrets anything more than building up the delusion that he was valued by the Crows as an assassin and discovering that from start to finish he's pretty much been viewed as worthless by everyone.

I am already aware.   CE is my favorite origin thus far.


True, he likely would have gone back to the Crows, but I doubt the knowledge that he was worthless in their eyes would have escaped him.  It's hard to tell what he would have done upon returning, but I've always assumed that he'd continue down a path of self-destruction until he was either killed or he found an out as good as the one the Warden provided.


Originally, my only point in connecting Leliana to Zevran was that they were both betrayed, and that the reason she can talk about enjoying her life as a bard so easily (and without remorse) is because she's had more time to put it behind her.

Whether or not she's truly put it behind her and 'regrets', or embraces the enjoyment and freedom she experianced as a bard are completely dependant on whether or not you harden her.  At least, IMO.

I cut out all my old comments, and I apologize, but I'm too lazy for formatting and I really did enjoy what you wrote here.  I actually think we agree more than disagree.

We actually do know what happens to Zevran if the warden is out of the picture -- if the Warden sacrifices herself.  He kills his way to becoming leader of the crows after they came after him again.

I disagree about Leliana, however.  She is pious for sure, but that doesn't mean she regrets what she did.  I just see no indication from her, hardened or not, that she feels that hunting down men and murdering them is wrong.  Her regrets all seem to stem from trusting Marjolaine.

With Zevran, you can refer to only 1 incident, but that doesn't mean that was his only regret.  I fully agree with you that it was both his killing Rinna and more importantly, the master crow letting him know exactly what that meant, and what he meant, which is what destroyed his world.  What I'm saying, though, is that he had to fight his nature to do what he was doing.  It was all he knew, it was the best life he could possibly have, it was a life he couldn't escape from, and it was an enjoyable life.  But he still had regrets over things he had done.  Would he have kept with the crows had the warden not rescued him? Of course.  Until he died.  Would Leliana have kept on with her life if Marjolaine had not betrayed her? Of course. Until she died.  The difference being is that Leliana reveled in it, where Zevran enjoyed the benefits, but had to work at making himself cold to it.

[ejoslin]

Sialater wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Sialater wrote...

I got that dialogue, too, but I'd dumped him for Alistair on my elf mage game, that he left Taliesin to face me. I told him I'd be severely put out if he left and suddenly I had full approval again. (I have the 360 version.)

Odd, it may be a platform difference then.  Because when I dumped him, I could not get him to leave.  And that was with approval ranging from +49 warm to + 68 warm.  I wonder if it was a romance bug as well.  It's a good conversation, though.  Very interesting.

I don't know.  I do know that I looked at the bar before the gates and found out I was ending the game with both he and Alistair in the white.  I could not get any more approval from either of them.  While I got the Chancellor card, the dialogue with Zevran was the same as if I'd romanced him, despite him having left Taliesin to face my AW elf mage.

You were bugged then.  Because you should not have gotten the dark city speech, just as you shouldn't have gotten the leaving (I don't think) unless he was romanced at below 71.  Gah, the romance bugs are so annoying at times!  I don't think you can see if you're in love or in friendly, can you, on the 360?  Sounds like it was love.  If he is NOT romanced, he will stay and fight no matter what.