35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Cuddlezarro]

Avernus was able to use blood magic to not only slow down the corruption slowly destroying his body but also used blood magic to live for over 200 years

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 09 février 2010 - 01:17 .

[jenovan]

Ahh, it hurts to hurt Zevran ;(

I just loaded a save on my mage PC to test the kissing in public stuff mentioned up-thread. Morrigan is at 88 Adore and Zev is something like 60 Care...  PC initiates the kiss, Morrigan gives her little snark about wanting to do this with an audience, and Zevran pipes up with, "What a display."   His tone sounds mildly amused, but like a lot of his comments, seems like it's covering up his own hurt feelings, since the PC got zinged with a -3 approval.   

(Although a meaner, more curious part of me wants to prod him to learn how he expresses jealousy...)

[MorningBird]

@Novita: I'm not going to bother stretching the page with quotes, but you managed to word my thoughts perfectly, so thanks. xD

As far as the public kissing goes, I'm not sure if I'm the odd one out on this, but I prefer that there's no 'public' intimacy with Zevran outside of the usual fire-side shenanigans.  I feel that it adds layers to the relationship, especially when it's in the early stages of development, where Zevran is convinced that they're just taking their 'pleasures where they can', while they can.

If it's 'fun' with no emotional attachment, then there's really no reason to show affection publicly, but as the friendship slowly evolves into love, you've (potentially) got two characters who are completely smitten, but trapped in a physical relationship.

So much tension, I love it!  Probably because I'm a terrible person.

The one thing that urks me though (and I'm sure other people have brought this up before) is that there is no option to see Zevran off at the gates with a kiss.  If my PC says, "No matter what happens, I love you." it would be nice if they could prove it in more than words.

I understand this would probably do even greater harm to Zevran (should the Warden not return) in the long run, but sometimes I play selfish characters who just want their last goodbye without thinking of the repercussions.

Modifié par MorningBird, 09 février 2010 - 02:25 .

[ejoslin]

I truly don't know how the warden not returning could do Zevran any more harm whether he got a kiss goodbye or not. It destroys him.

I think there should be PDA, but your argument falls apart when taking into account that Leliana has no PDA either. And Zevran, despite what he is saying, by being willing to talk about Rinna far earlier if in a romance than in a friendship, shows that his feelings are running deeper. I don't think sex with the warden was ever really casual.  But it's that approval meter that convinces me of it!  *grin*

Edit: Party banter also makes me think that the Zevran/Warden romance is deeper.  Zevran talks about it not being a bad thing if the Warden gets pregnant, for instance.  He tells Alistair he wants to stay around after the blight is over.  But most telling, to me, is even before you can get physical with Zevran, he tries to find out if you two have a future together and if you see that future as friendship or as more.

Second edit: The "no matter what happens, I love you," is NOT seen as a positive remark by Zevran at all.  By leaving him there, you're pretty much ensuring he cannot stick with you to the end and prevent your untimely death.  There are a couple of positive answers there, but I don't think he'd want a kiss goodbye.  He wants to fight by the warden's side.

Modifié par ejoslin, 09 février 2010 - 02:54 .

[MorningBird]

ejoslin wrote...

I truly don't know how the warden not returning could do Zevran any more harm whether he got a kiss goodbye or not. It destroys him,

I think there should be PDA, but your argument falls apart when taking into account that Leliana has no PDA either. And Zevran, despite what he is saying, by being willing to talk about Rinna far earlier if in a romance than in a friendship, shows that his feelings are running deeper. I don't think sex with the warden was ever really casual.  But it's that approval meter that convinces me of it!  *grin*

I'm really not trying to form an argument here.  I don't know what the devs intended when they left out the public kisses for Leliana and Zevran, I was just stating my preference for it being left out in 99% of the story.  You might prefer it with, and that's fine.  Just means we have different play styles.

As for how a kiss at the gates could make the situation worse, once again, it depends entirely on your storytelling perspective.  I just happen to think that leaving the one you love at the gates--after giving them every possible reassurance that they meant the world to you--is  less cruel than giving them the prospect of a last kiss to mull over for the rest of their life.

Certainly Zevran is terribly off no matter what you do, but (depending on your version of how events played out) at least this way your last kiss isn't forever implanted in his mind, haunting him (he's got enough to torture himself with, there's really no sense in adding more fuel to the fire here... unless you're a drama hound like I am. )

Of course, the counterargument here is that he would instead spend the rest of his life trying to remember what he lost, but I digress. xD

I tend to ignore the approval bar when I play, because I'm on the 360, and alas, it doesn't do me much good at all on this platform.

[ejoslin]

MorningBird wrote...

I'm really not trying to form an argument here.  I don't know what the devs intended when they left out the public kisses for Leliana and Zevran, I was just stating my preference for it being left out in 99% of the story.  You might prefer it with, and that's fine.  Just means we have different play styles.

As for how a kiss at the gates could make the situation worse, once again, it depends entirely on your storytelling perspective.  I just happen to think that leaving the one you love at the gates--after giving them every possible reassurance that they meant the world to you--is  less cruel than giving them the prospect of a last kiss to mull over for the rest of their life.

Certainly Zevran is terribly off no matter what you do, but (depending on your version of how events played out) at least this way your last kiss isn't forever implanted in his mind, haunting him (he's got enough to torture himself with, there's really no sense in adding more fuel to the fire here... unless you're a drama hound like I am. )

Of course, the counterargument here is that he would instead spend the rest of his life trying to remember what he lost, but I digress. xD

I tend to ignore the approval bar when I play, because I'm on the 360, and alas, it doesn't do me much good at all on this platform.

*grin* I don't see anything here as an argument.  We see things differently, of course, but it's a Zevran love thread so I squee here and discuss the way I see it!  I love seeing the way other people see it, especially if it's not the same as I do.  But never having another lover, becoming completely cold, keeping a distance for everyone, running the Crows despite what they had done to him, especially as a young child. . . I seriously don't see it getting worse than that.

The approval meter on the PC, as you must know, is not just numbers. You have neutral, care, adore, friendly, and love.  Zevran's meter is incredibly glitchy, and will often show a higher emotion than it should (love when it should be at adore, adore when it should be at care).  But even so, having it say "adore" or (glitched) "love" when it's supposedly casual . . . it makes it seem that he's more fighting falling in love, than really feeling it's casual.

That's not to say that he attaches meaning to the sex, though.  I think the feelings he develops are separate and apart, and it's when he finally stops fighting falling in love that when the two become confused in his head.

[MorningBird]

ejoslin wrote...
Edit: Party banter also makes me think that the Zevran/Warden romance is deeper.  Zevran talks about it not being a bad thing if the Warden gets pregnant, for instance.  He tells Alistair he wants to stay around after the blight is over.  But most telling, to me, is even before you can get physical with Zevran, he tries to find out if you two have a future together and if you see that future as friendship or as more.

True, but regardless as to when certain dialog options are triggered, I tend to decide in my head where they would best 'fit' (I don't know if I'm the only one who does that... ) for this reason, I see more of the affection... not so much coming in later, but being acknowledged for what it is later.

As far as the 'having a future together' conversation goes... um... it takes two to tango? xD And my PC didn't want to dance.

When my Warden said, "I could always use a friend." Zevran's response was, "Oh, just a friend?  Nothing more?" (or something of the like... you probably no better than me! ) Depending on his tone of voice, this question can be taken so many ways, and it's the way Zevran made it come across (light-hearted, indifferent, 'joking') that 'encouraged' my PC to respond with 'We'll see."

Zevran was obviously feigning indifference when he posed the question, but his response to anything but the positive makes it quite clear that he is more invested in the relationship than he tries to put off.

Sadly, I don't play take backs, so that was my answer for the rest of the game.

ejoslin wrote...
Second edit: The "no matter what happens, I love you," is NOT seen as a positive remark by Zevran at all.  By leaving him there, you're pretty much ensuring he cannot stick with you to the end and prevent your untimely death.  There are a couple of positive answers there, but I don't think he'd want a kiss goodbye.  He wants to fight by the warden's side.

I know it's not a 'positive' answer, but like I said, my PC could be selfish at times, and that was definitely what they would say and do in that situation, even at the risk of being slapped, gutted, or pushed away.  They didn't want to die with regrets (though if they saw what became of Zevran, I'm sure they'd have quite a few... )

[MorningBird]

ejoslin wrote...
*grin* I don't see anything here as an argument.  We see things differently, of course, but it's a Zevran love thread so I squee here and discuss the way I see it!  I love seeing the way other people see it, especially if it's not the same as I do.  But never having another lover, becoming completely cold, keeping a distance for everyone, running the Crows despite what they had done to him, especially as a young child. . . I seriously don't see it getting worse than that.

I know, and that's what I love most about this thread!  You have no idea how tired I am of forum fighting! Everyone here is very polite in their responses, and it's like a fresh breath of air everytime I come here to read up on my favorite character.

All I meant was that you said my arguement was falling apart, when I really didn't have one to begin with. xD  Rarely do I ever, I think.  It's all blather!

As for Zevran's situation not getting any worse, fair enough.  I think the two of us just play very different characters!

ejoslin wrote...
The approval meter on the PC, as you must know, is not just numbers. You have neutral, care, adore, friendly, and love.  Zevran's meter is incredibly glitchy, and will often show a higher emotion than it should (love when it should be at adore, adore when it should be at care).  But even so, having it say "adore" or (glitched) "love" when it's supposedly casual . . . it makes it seem that he's more fighting falling in love, than really feeling it's casual.

That's not to say that he attaches meaning to the sex, though.  I think the feelings he develops are separate and apart, and it's when he finally stops fighting falling in love that when the two become confused in his head.

Yes, and I am most envious of your PC Approval bar. *shakes fist* but on the otherhand, it does help me focus on playing a character rather than 'the character who will garner the most approval'.  Sometimes not knowing where you stand 100% of the time can be a good thing.

... And I agree with the rest of that blip as well.

[Addai]

My HNF is finding Zevran a much friendlier face in camp than Alistair right now. Kingly Alistair is all grim and business-like, Zevran smiles and says "What is your wish?" And he told her about Rinna. Meanwhile, Leliana is giving weird vibes and Oghren is sighing heavily. What a refreshing spot is Zevran's little corner of the camp!



Feeling extravagant after he agreed to stay with her, HNF bought him Felon's Coat as a gift. I've never had enough gold to buy it before- not sure what I did right this time- but I couldn't think of anything better to use it for. She's a rogue too but I don't like how it looks on women, so Zevran gets it. Which also means he is coming everywhere now. He is just too awesome to leave behind.

[Raiynsong]

hey, quick question for all you Zevran fans. When do you get him in the game ? I know he shows up after you do Redcliffe. So do you guys do Redcliffe as soon as possible so that you have more of the game with him ? Otherwise it's pretty hard for me to keep Alistair at arm's length till Zevran decides I'm worth hitting on. The one take I ended up with Zevran I had both Alistair and Leli asking me to choose between them even before Zevran and I had anything physical (in fact, I had nothing physical with any of the 3 yet---just a kiss from Alistair). Then I dialog with Zevran and he basically says the same thing about Alistair. Seemed a bit premature to have to be exclusive, but I played it out "honorably" told the other two I wasn't interested and ended up with Zevran, who continued to play his get away closer game till the end. Maybe I had a buggy script ?

[Addai]

You get him after you complete one ally quest, which in Redcliffe only entails finishing the castle part.  You don't have to do the Urn quest to have Zevran trigger.  But, Isolde and/or Connor have to die. Otherwise, if you go to get the mages' help, the cutscene won't trigger until after you're done with the Circle Tower.  You really ought to take Zevran to the Tower once if you haven't.  For a character romancing him, it is pretty significant to see his reactions and his Fade dream.

With Alistair, you just have to put off giving him gifts or flirting with him a while. He is happy enough if you just talk to him a bit. You will get a hit with him if you resolve Redcliffe by killing Isolde or Connor, so that may help cool things down a bit. Worked with my mage. Actually you don't HAVE to take a hit with him for that, there is one response which gives a +7, but to me that feels like a cheat since it's reasonable for him to be upset.

Modifié par Addai67, 09 février 2010 - 04:50 .

[Sresla]

Probably a better option (if you don't want to axe Isolde and Conner - not that I'd blame you) is doing the Ashes of Andraste quest. You can pick that up prior to going to Redcliffe simply by detouring to Denerim and getting it from faux Genetivi assistant. It may not be faster than Redcliffe but it's close and while you miss Zevran hedging around discussing Rinna, you do get that discussion with him later anyway and he tells you what you'd discover taking him through the Gauntlet anyway - that he regrets it. Though, there is some good Haven dialogue. Taking Zevran to the Mage Tower is worth it though, in my opnion.

Modifié par Sresla, 09 février 2010 - 06:14 .

[Cuddlezarro]

I found the dalish quest shorter than the ashes quest personally

[Sabriana]

Nope. No way will I do the Ashes quest without Zevran. It's too insightful. I was rather amazed at the Guardian talk. Yes, I was amazed and I can imagine my PC was too.
She does the Redcliffe arch first. Granted, he has good parts in it, but to me, the other quests are far more given to insights into Zevran.

Orzammar is too long for my PC to be without him. The dalish..., wow, his speeches there are too powerful to miss, especially his pleading. (Yes, found an old save and had my amazon being talked out of her plans by Zevran).
I won't ever do the tower without Zevran. It's too important for my PC to miss. She'll get a huge glimpse inside, especially in the fade. Too bad that there is no way (bad, bad, devs and programmers) that she can be persuaded in regards to the mages, that speech is awesome and heartfelt. So I have to reload and pretend my girl let herself be persuaded

Isolde dies, everytime. My PC thinks its more than she deserves, dying a hero to her son and her people. She set everything in motion, and people not only died, their dead bodies were used against their own. Hearing the two children in the chantry asking for their parent(s), and seeing the girl prone on the floor only help her see it that way. Kaitlyn telling my PC that she hears her mother's screams all the time didn't help her getting upset. She's a Cousland, and she knows that nobility has obligations to their people.

Isolde cared about none of that. The 'pious' woman broke the law twice to further her plans. Her actions set everything in motion. Yes, I can understand a mother wanting to save her child, I'd do the same, but not at this great cost. It's not as if Connor was doomed to death, he was doomed to the fate of a mage. Like many other mages. She almost destroys Redcliffe, village and castle.

Alistair's outbursts go into one ear and out the other. He's acting childish in my PC's eyes, and doesn't understand the enormity of Isolde's actions, he only sees what it would do to Eamon. Who, by the way, acts completely rational upon finding out his wife died. By the way, I picked the "That went rather well" line without knowing that it was bugged. To my PC, things did rather go well. Everything was ended, and the child was free of the demon thanks to his mother. I was quite shocked when she received a +7 from Alistair for that remark

Without metagaming knowledge my PC knows not what the demon-boy will do while she trudges off to the tower. Isolde herself gives time a great importance. My PC told her that she'll have to think it over, and Isolde was all upset about it, urging her to hurry up and think because who knows what the demon will do in the meantime. If thinking takes too long, marching off to the tower will definitely take too long.

[ejoslin]

I switch it up, because Zevran has good things to say everywhere. I think he has the least to say with the Dalish, especially if you don't have the type of character who will seduce Cammen. I just love Zevran in Redcliff so much, it's hard for me not to have him there.

Ok, there's an Alistair/Leliana banter that bugs me. When Alistair is asking Leliana if a woman would actually find Zevran attractive, he says that Zevran tried to kill them more than once. But Zevran only tried to kill them once and in fact, rightly points out to the Warden that if he wanted her dead, all he'd have to do is poison her. *grin* Not that it's a big deal, but I find it a bit annoying!

Edit: I think the one thing NOT to do for getting Zevran into the party is Redcliff if you're going to do the "good" route.  In that case, definitely just go to the circle tower.  What I like most about the circle tower is, surprisingly, the way he tries to reassure Wynne there.  Yes, his dream AND especially his reaction to his dream gives a very good insight into his character and his comments, but he was just being nice to Wynne.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 09 février 2010 - 11:38 .

[Les Polar]

ZEV ,watch camp please!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sabriana]

Yeah, and Wynne thanks him for it by being all kinds of nasty.



I find my solution for Redcliffe to be the good choice, btw. I never liked the 'out' the tower gave, nor do I think it's the right thing to do. Unless you use foreknowledge, leaving the village and castle for an extended trip is far too risky. My PC asks Isolde where Connor is and one line goes "Or he could be waiting in ambush". To which Isolde replies very shakily "Yes, but...."

[UnDutchable]

I always save Isolde and Connor because I have a soft spot for Bann Teagan. Eamon and his family can go suck a toadstool for all I care, but Teagan sounds so grateful when you promise him you'll try to save everyone in the castle.

I read somewhere that Zevran will help you with Berwick if you have him in your party. Does he do anything when you try to convince Lloyd to join the fight, as well?

[ejoslin]

UnDutchable wrote...

I always save Isolde and Connor because I have a soft spot for Bann Teagan. Eamon and his family can go suck a toadstool for all I care, but Teagan sounds so grateful when you promise him you'll try to save everyone in the castle.
I read somewhere that Zevran will help you with Berwick if you have him in your party. Does he do anything when you try to convince Lloyd to join the fight, as well?

Zevran will help you intimidate Berwick if you haven't spoken to Lloyd or Bella about him.  Zevran will also say something if you intimidate Lloyd into giving you the bar.  He also speaks up to Murdock for being disrespectful to the Warden. He also lets you know that the fire trap may be a bad idea (too late, though, you're committed to it).  He also points out that the undead and the poisoning are probably connected.

Modifié par ejoslin, 09 février 2010 - 12:43 .

[Sabriana]

Also the "naked cliff-diving" which is as funny as Leliana's 'sailing on a windmill"



Rofl about the oil. Yeah, made me talk to my monitor. "Ye couldn't have said something earlier, Zevran?"



The oil was all bad, because my allies incinerated themselves trying to storm up the hill. I forgot to put them into the 'hold' position

[AndreaDraco]

Same problem with the oil, here. And I too said Zev: "A little earlier, no?"

[ejoslin]

AndreaDraco wrote...

Same problem with the oil, here. And I too said Zev: "A little earlier, no?"

I think it's a conversation bug.  I'm sticking with that!

[Sabriana]

Yeh. Same with the mages. Man, I hate not being able to give in to him. Why, oh why couldn't they have put in two more lines. "You're right, Zevran." and for the cold-hearted mage-haters "I know what I'm doing Zevran." Would that have been so hard? Is it really too much to ask?

[Nonvita]

UnDutchable wrote...

I always save Isolde and Connor because I have a soft spot for Bann Teagan. Eamon and his family can go suck a toadstool for all I care, but Teagan sounds so grateful when you promise him you'll try to save everyone in the castle.

Sadly, this is how my HN is feeling right now. At this point she's more loyal to the nobles than to the town, and is willing to risk the lives of others to ensure Eamon's family survives (it makes it more likely she'll get Eamon's support, and is hoping it'll get her into the good graces of Teagann...). She knows Eamon and Isolde are being protected for some reason, and it seems that Teagann is as well. So she's going the nice route for totally selfish reasons, and if Alistair wants to thank her for it she'll be perfectly honest in telling him she didn't do it for him.

That said, I've never had Zevran around for Redcliffe, but next playthrough I should. I tend to just go wherever my character would most naturally go first, so for my mage it'll be the Circle and my Dalish it'll be Brecilian. Although, if I do want to romance him, I'd agree that the Circle and Gauntlet are too important to miss out on, so no Redcliffe for Zevran.

[BlastedLands]

stopped playing last night, because couldn't decide on the above matter^^ reading all your opinions doesn't make it easier at all.... think it'll be redcliffe again, but then again i do that like everytime.

*sigh*