35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabriana]

Lol. Yeah, me too, Haerja. It's just the quickest way, and there will be no way in heck that I have my PC miss the revelations in the tower. It speaks volumes to her, and puts all his braggadocio into a different light.

They're defenses. Aha! Gotcha!



I've played the tower first once, and kept that save. If I want to hear and see Redcliffe, I'll just replay that one. Thank goodness for multiple save options.

[ejoslin]

/cry in the love-Alistair thread, someone has done the Zevran romance and thinks there's nothing after the earring (which apparently she accepted -- gah). SO many people don't complete that romance, and miss the very best part of it.

I know there aren't nearly as many Zevran fans as Alistair fans -- I think this may be a huge part of it. Everything about the romance is pretty gritty, even the part leading up to him finally admitting his feelings. And I understand when someone doesn't finish the romance, why they don't get what is quite so special about it.

Ah well, I said my bit in there, I cried about it here.

Zevran has the least to say to the Dalish. You still get his Dalish dialog, and you can surprise him by giving him gloves way before he really knows you. It makes his shock that much better. "I . . . Maker's breath! It IS like my mother's!" That whole exchange is so sad. "Do I seem surprised? perhaps I am. No one's ever . . . given me a gift before." What an empty life he had, yet still considered himself lucky and found so much joy anyway.

Modifié par ejoslin, 09 février 2010 - 04:21 .

[Addai]

Sabriana wrote...

Nope. No way will I do the Ashes quest without Zevran. It's too insightful. I was rather amazed at the Guardian talk. Yes, I was amazed and I can imagine my PC was too.

+1  I, too, would never leave Zevran behind for the Gauntlet reveal.  I'm afraid that Isolde is in very grave danger in my future playthroughs. 

[MorningBird]

Unfortunately, I haven't brought Zevran with me to the tower yet, as I always head their first to aquire my party healer, but I think I'll change things up on my next mage playthrough.

In the past, I used to do the Dalish quest first, so that may be the first stop after Lothering during my next run.

When it comes to Redcliffe my elf usually spares both Isolde and Connor, but for nobodies sake but Connor.  Originally he said he'd 'Have to think about it' when seeking aid from the Tower Mages was proposed, then he went off to find Connor and asses the demon situation.

If Connor were too far gone the Redcliffe chapter would have likely ended there, but Connor convinced my elf that the demon had exerted herself to a point where she would need a great deal of rest in order to recover the power she lost fighting against Redcliffe and the Warden and that she would not be coming back for a while.

That was enough to convince my city elf that a trip to the Tower may be worth the risk.  They knew what it was like to be Connor's age and to grow up without a mother, so no matter how great their dislike for Isolde was, using her as a means to enter the Fade was out of the question.

Probably not the wisest decision, but eh. xD

[Sabriana]

I could never bring myself to kill the boy. It's not his fault, it's his mother's fault. I went to him once, and I guess my game must've glitched reading your post, MorningBird, because Connor attacked me right off. I didn't even get to punch Isolde. So I've avoided that.

As for the dalish, I like the way he pleads for the elves. I just want my PC to be aware of the fact that there is far, far more to Zevran than he lets on.

So, Redcliffe it is for me, personally. Isolde is doomed. Doomed I say.

[MorningBird]

Sabriana wrote...

I could never bring myself to kill the boy. It's not his fault, it's his mother's fault. I went to him once, and I guess my game must've glitched reading your post, MorningBird, because Connor attacked me right off. I didn't even get to punch Isolde. So I've avoided that.
As for the dalish, I like the way he pleads for the elves. I just want my PC to be aware of the fact that there is far, far more to Zevran than he lets on.
So, Redcliffe it is for me, personally. Isolde is doomed. Doomed I say.

Well, I know Connor will auto-attack you if you try to go around him and walk straight into Eamon's room, so if that's what you did... (I know I tried that once, fun times...) but if you talk to Connor as soon as you get in, he'll tell you not to go in there because it will provoke the demon into attacking you.

But you can also question him and ask him when he expects the demon to come back.  I think he responds that he doesn't know, but that she exerted herself and needed time to rest.

My elf took that as meaning that she wouldn't be able to do any more zombie-fying for a while.

[jenovan]

ejoslin wrote...

/cry in the love-Alistair thread, someone has done the Zevran romance and thinks there's nothing after the earring (which apparently she accepted -- gah). SO many people don't complete that romance, and miss the very best part of it.

I know there aren't nearly as many Zevran fans as Alistair fans -- I think this may be a huge part of it. Everything about the romance is pretty gritty, even the part leading up to him finally admitting his feelings. And I understand when someone doesn't finish the romance, why they don't get what is quite so special about it.

Ah well, I said my bit in there, I cried about it here.

Zevran has the least to say to the Dalish. You still get his Dalish dialog, and you can surprise him by giving him gloves way before he really knows you. It makes his shock that much better. "I . . . Maker's breath! It IS like my mothers!" That whole exchange is so sad. "Do I seem surprised? perhaps I am. No one's ever . . . given me a gift before." What an empty life he had, yet still considered himself lucky and found so much joy anyway.

I think trying to fulfill the Zevran romance may be difficult, without help (like this lovely thread!) or a lot of determination to see what all the possibilities are.   I was so nervous navigating through the earring dialogues, because I knew what result I wanted, but only vaguely how to get there. ;D  Sometime soon I'm going to have to exercise all the dialogue paths (I like to do that while I'm writing, to get a better idea of what an NPC really feels about the topic...), but who knows what I might have picked, playing utterly isolated?  (Ahh, I know I probably would have accepted the earring the first time around, that's for sure...)

If you can find your way through it, though, it is so touching to see oh-so-confident Zevran awkwardly flailing to find his emotional footing.  <sigh>


Heh, it's interesting that you bring up the gloves... I'm trying to write around them in my fanfic right now, and it feels like... you can infer different things about what the gift means to Zevran, based on when you give them to him.  If you give them quite early, I imagine he would feel surprised that the PC would have bothered to give him a gift at all (if the PC doesn't know about his mother's gloves), or surprised that the PC would remember -- and care about -- a detail like that, if he's told about his mother already. 

On the other hand, if it happens later in the relationship, Zevran might take it as an affirmation of how much the PC thinks of him, and, conversely, how much trust he's invested in the PC.   I think it's the most personal gift that the PC can give him -- the boots are personal, yes, but talking about his mother and the one thing of hers he possessed seems so much more intimate and trusting than talking about being homesick.  Even Sten is homesick.

I hope that made sense... I started writing with a sense of purpose up there, and I think lunch distracted me.

[Sabriana]

Oh, thanks. Yes, that's what my PC did, the silly girl

I have to try that out and see/hear Connor. It sounds interesting. I like Connor. I'm such a wuss about kids (even pixel kids) that I cheated after getting the Blood Mage spec, and just reloaded to before my mage encountered the demon.

[ejoslin]

What I especially love about the gloves dialog, is his reaction depending on what you say to him. He can sound deeply moved, or happy and surprised, or a bit wary, like he's wondering what will be expected of him in return.



I got the best result with the Zevran romance entirely by accident. It took me four play throughs to find the stupid "untimely death" speech for a second time (I was beginning to doubt it existed and thought maybe I had imagined it). But it's almost like the ending was designed for someone who just got dumped by Alistair. Who would turn down that earring the first time, except someone who JUST got severely burned by the stupid game and that bundle of spineless pixels! Who else would be telling Zevran, I'm no wiser than you! And since I liked the kissing (and didn't know about mods like DT), I always invited him to the tent, so being rejected there was a complete shock.



I know there are other people with different circumstances who also end up stumbling into the right ending. I'm just glad I was able to do it without spoilers. It's still really special, even after playing it so many times, and doing quite a few reloads as well. But I fell harder for Zevran than I did for Alistair because of the way it played out, and it's very strange using these terms about characters in a video game, but really, my feelings were real. It is fortunate that my husband finds the whole thing funny, and teases me about it. Because when I sit and describe it, I sound nuts to me! But no more so than really getting into a good book or moving and genuinely caring about the characters as well.

[Sabriana]

@ Jenovan
Heh, other than your lunch-time being my dinner time, I understand you perfectly. I too think that the gloves represent more to him than the boots. The whole conversation tree seems to be suited more for giving him the gloves later on.

The conversation leading up to telling the PC about his mother and the gloves is one of my favorite (alongside all my other favorites - *sigh* I'm hopeless). The animations, the tone of voice, I love everything about it. Especially his facial expression when he tells her that his mother was "my first victim" Made my heart break, that did.

Edited to add
Ejoslin, that's exactly what happened to my mage. She was far too hurt to risk taking the earring if it didn't mean anything. Poor girl. I wonder what hurt more, the public humiliation, or losing Alistair.

Anyway, after this very first play-through, that's what got me interested in Zevran, and then that was all she wrote. I kept finding more and deeper things in and about him, and here I am a Zevran fangirl.

Modifié par Sabriana, 09 février 2010 - 04:50 .

[MorningBird]

Sabriana wrote...

Oh, thanks. Yes, that's what my PC did, the silly girl
I have to try that out and see/hear Connor. It sounds interesting. I like Connor. I'm such a wuss about kids (even pixel kids) that I cheated after getting the Blood Mage spec, and just reloaded to before my mage encountered the demon.

No worries, could be worse.  My elf tried to get into Eamon's room even AFTER being told by Connor that it was a bad, bad idea. *failure*

And I know what you mean.  My PC also has has to stop and help every parent-less child they come across, but Connor in particular struck a cord.  I always imagined my PC was around his age when they lost their mother, and they didn't want someone else experiancing the same loss if they could prevent it.

[Creature 1]

I just played through the Dalish and tried all of the "kill the elves" options, which I never did before. I noticed if you pick the option "Yes, and you're going to help" even after you change your mind you get -1 approval. I got +4 for, IIRC, picking "You've seen plenty of murder" and then changing my mind. I didn't try telling him I expected his help and then going through with it, but I imagine the disapproval's pretty hefty.

I think the persuade option should be much more harsh. The text is just basically "It's the best way", they should put in something more cruel about how his mother being Dalish is a stupid reason to spare the elves when the werewolves will be better against the darkspawn. Something more Crow-like.

Modifié par Creature 1, 09 février 2010 - 04:52 .

[Nonvita]

Sabriana wrote...

Oh, thanks. Yes, that's what my PC did, the silly girl
I have to try that out and see/hear Connor. It sounds interesting. I like Connor. I'm such a wuss about kids (even pixel kids) that I cheated after getting the Blood Mage spec, and just reloaded to before my mage encountered the demon.

Still don't have the spec. But then I haven't gotten a mage that far yet. XD When I do, I'll be following your example.

As far as going to the mage tower, I really wish it came with consequences. My HN is being rather selfish in doing it (it's partly altruistic, but her putting the lives of the nobility ahead of the rest of the town isn't exactly a secret), but there won't be anything bad because of it. It feels like a copout. Strangely, my conscience feels much better when I just kill Isolde and face Alistair's wrath.

[Sabriana]

Agreed. My PC saves Amelia (Honnleth), Connor, and gets Bevin out of his closet. I tell you though, the one child that always breaks my heart is Amethyne (sp?) Iona's daughter. My HNF didn't have a relationship other than friendly with Iona, but not to be able to help the little girl, is heart-wrenching. Each. And. Every. Play-through.

Maybe that's one of the reasons Zevran is so dear to me (and therefore my PCs). His utterly miserable childhood is gut wrenching as well. To have withstood that, and still retain values and regrets, as well as the ability to feel (although he tries his darnedest not to) speaks of great strength to me.

[Cuddlezarro]

all that talk about where to go to recruit zevrna first really makes me wish I could get the toolset to work so i could make a "spawn Zevran encounter out of lothering" mod





some one really should do that its a pain in the ass having to rely on Leliena for lock picking and stealing till I get Zevran

[Nonvita]

@ Sabriana: Absolutely about Zevran!



And to draw on an argument from one of the other threads, no, Zevran is not always "nice" and he can look down on the value of life. But those are traits I don't think are *inherent* in him, they are traits he has had to learn to survive. Considering how he could have turned out, he is remarkably rational, and his displays of compassion seem to come much more from his heart than his attempts to appear cold.



He endured torture of the worst sort on a constant basis throughout his entire life. I don't understand why Cullen gets all this love from girls when he endured torture for only awhile and completely broke from the experience. I do, in many ways, feel sorry for his character, yet in the end it doesn't change the fact that he has lost all reason and ability to feel empathy due to the ordeal.



Zevran, on the other hand, faced far more physical and mental anguish and from a far earlier age, yet he is not broken, nor has he completely lost a moral compass. And yet people rag on him constantly for being a heartless killer who fails to change for the better, which isn't giving him much credit for the many ways he does change. No, he does not lose his opinions on many things, and he is not afraid to speak up about them, but his actions show that he can become a very different man than he has been. When in the whole game does he ruthlessly kill someone the way that a cold-blooded killer would? The only case I can think of is Ruck, but even that is out of a terrified compassion toward him. Otherwise there's the anvil, which I won't get into, but I don't see that as heartless of him.



Zevran is far more loyal than most of the other companions, he will listen to reason from the PC (and manages to appreciate her opinions far more than Alistair often does), he finds a great deal of honor in fighting with the Grey Wardens, he puts up with others' suspicions of him and laughs it off, he steps in to stop the Warden if she willingly agrees to slaughter groups of people... I could go on and on.



All this from the man meant to be a cold-blooded assassin. No wonder why he says his training didn't come naturally.

[Addai]

Sabriana wrote...

Agreed. My PC saves Amelia (Honnleth), Connor, and gets Bevin out of his closet. I tell you though, the one child that always breaks my heart is Amethyne (sp?) Iona's daughter. My HNF didn't have a relationship other than friendly with Iona, but not to be able to help the little girl, is heart-wrenching. Each. And. Every. Play-through.

Amethyne, yes... such a pity that you can't interact with her on a human noble playthrough.  Someone make an Adopt Amethyne mod!

[Cuddlezarro]

am I the only one who finds it funny that Amethyne is an elite rank person?



but yes that is pretty damn sad expecially since her moms been dead for over a year by the time you get to the alienage

[ejoslin]

I don't look at Ruck as anything but a mercy killing. It plays better if you don't have Oghren with you in the party because Zevran has more to say, and even though it feels terrible, there's a reason why they then agree with him. I don't find it a cold blooded killing any more than I find killing the werewolf in the forest (I don't remember her name) a cold blooded killing. Ever notice how Zevran (probably anyone in the party aside from Morrigan, actually), turns away when you cut her throat?

[ejoslin]

Here's a thought you probably have to be a Zevran fan to agree with (therefore, I doubt I'd argue it outside this thread but anyway).



As everyone here knows, if you take Zevran to the tower, his dream is of being tortured, yet when you get to the sloth demon, he asks what happened to the luscious wood nymphs. So you know he uses sex as a deflection. Anyway, when he's talking about how he enjoys being an assassin, that he likes the feeling of sinking his blade into someone's flesh, if you tell him that that's a bit sick, he answers something like, "I've often been told I'm a sick, sick man, most often in bed." I think if you tell him that, you really strike a nerve. The only other time I can think off hand that he does that in conversation with the Warden is in the Rinna story if you ask him how he's changed or say he was MORE cocky and arrogant, and at that point, it's obvious you struck a nerve.



Maybe I'm reading too much into that comment, but it's also very possible that it does bother him, the fact that he does get a satisfaction out of killing. Because I think you telling him that really does bother him.

[Sialater]

I agree that he does deflect with sex and humor and humor about sex. And the Warden being perceptive makes him uncomfortable.

[ejoslin]

Sialater wrote...

I agree that he does deflect with sex and humor and humor about sex. And the Warden being perceptive makes him uncomfortable.

I actually was talking about the particular comment.  It's a conversation I see quoted a lot when people justify disliking Zevran, or saying he's completely remorseless.  Yet, if you tell him that taking pleasure in killing someone is sick, he deflects it.  Usually he doesn't in their private conversations, so I think the warden really does strike a nerve when s/he says that to him.  Which, to me at least, implies that it may bother him a bit more than he is saying, or that he at least agrees with the warden to some extent.

[Addai]

Re. Zevran's childhood, has anyone ever regretted taking Zevran with them through the alienage orphanage? My city elf was horrified for her own reasons, but HNF was wanting to send Zevran back to camp on an, um, errrand, something that had to be done just then and only by him. Just felt so sick (and ashamed on behalf of her race) that he was an elven orphan and she was dragging him through a bloodsoaked elven orphanage. Am I glad that he makes no special comment about that quest? I think I am.

Modifié par Addai67, 09 février 2010 - 06:49 .

[ejoslin]

I don't think he identifies with the elves in the alienage. He doesn't seem to, at least. I do find him in the alienage upsetting enough with a city elf, though.

Hah, on a different note, I finally got a NICE comment from him when informing a blackstone irregular widow that her husband was dead. What a shock! Usually I see him say, "Your husband? Dead. It was horrible and so forth." But this time he said, "I'm sorry to say that your beloved husband is dead." So new squee for me!

Edit: But back to the alienage.  He does make a comment when first entering that they're all the same.  And of course, the comment about peeing on the tree.  I take him through the orphanage.  I don't know -- he's always by my side.  The only time you see him noticeably upset (when not a city elf of course) is when he think you may give the elves to the slavers -- but that is very personal to him at the deepest level.  I think if I were inclined to take that deal, I'd leave him at camp, but i don't think I will ever be inclined to take that deal.

Modifié par ejoslin, 09 février 2010 - 07:05 .

[jenovan]

ejoslin wrote...

Hah, on a different note, I finally got a NICE comment from him when informing a blackstone irregular widow that her husband was dead. What a shock! Usually I see him say, "Your husband? Dead. It was horrible and so forth." But this time he said, "I'm sorry to say that your beloved husband is dead." So new squee for me!

Interesting!  Might the variation have anything to do with his approval level, or is it random?

Whenever I tried getting someone else to talk to the widows, Alistair always stepped up (and of course, was vry srs about it). Boring.