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[Sabriana]

Cullen compared to Zevran. Yeah. Makes a whole lot of sense. One survives 20+ years of abuse (mental, physical, sexual), torture and slavery without being utterly shattered and cold as ice. The other one loses his sanity completely after a fraction of that time, and goes on a killing spree at the end. Yes. Indeed. Does no one else see those similarities? Really people, get with it.

Now that I have that sarcasm and anger somewhat out of my system, I need to go and find a save from the "Tell me about Antiva". Never picked the 'cesspool' response, and now I have to see what happens.

Thanks a lot Ejosly

Cullen love/sex scene:

Cullen enters the mage's bedroom after his daily dose of lyrium and religious service, not being able to deny himself any longer.

Mage: What are you doing here?

Cullen: You temptress. I came here because you are the one thing I want. A mage. How terrible. Maker forgive me. This has to end. Your bewitching me has to come to an end. Maker forgive me.

Mage: Is terrified, tries to get out of bed and find the means to defend herself as Cullen advances.

Cullen: Brutally violates Mage

Mage: Is crying and rolled into fetal position and in great pain

Cullen: You made me break my vows. Maker forgive me. I can't live like that. She is a witch, she must be one. Looks at shivering and crying mage. It is you who is to blame. Mages are evil, the Chantry is right. Cuts mage's throat
Cullen: I am cleansed. Thank you, Maker.

Your journey ends here....

Modifié par Sabriana, 10 février 2010 - 09:05 .

[ejoslin]

Walina wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Shallow and sleazy? I don't think so.





Edit: deleted epilogue card

Second edit: These screenies really do break my heart.  Ugh.
 

You don't have that with Alistair harden or not. If not harden and not king, Alistair isn't  in the crowd at all at the moment O_o" When he is king and not herden he isn't  had a sad face too like Zevran, I am really surprised!

Yes, the funeral and the look on Zev's face . . . ugh.  These pictures are clickable, so you can see them larger if you can stand it!  I'm tempted to do a Leliana at the end play through because her face is supposed to be just as bad.  Alistair, if he's still in love, you won't get to see the closeup of the current romance partner's face if he's giving the eulogy, which is annoying, especially since his face just doesn't have the same emotion on it.  That . . . lost look.

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 février 2010 - 12:52 .

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

Cullen compared to Zevran. Yeah. Makes a whole lot of sense. One survives 20+ years of abuse (mental, physical, sexual), torture and slavery without being utterly shattered and cold as ice. The other one loses his sanity completely after a fraction of that time, and goes on a killing spree at the end. Yes. Indeed. Does no one else see those similarities? Really people, get with it.

Now that I have that sarcasm and anger somewhat out of my system, I need to go and find a save from the "Tell me about Antiva". Never picked the 'cesspool' response, and now I have to see what happens.

Thanks a lot Ejosly

Cullen love/sex scene:

Cullen enters the mage's bedroom after his daily dose of lyrium and religious service, not being able to deny himself any longer.

Mage: What are you doing here?

Cullen: You temptress. I came here because you are the one thing I want. A mage. How terrible. Maker forgive me. This has to end. Your bewitching me has to come to an end. Maker forgive me.

Mage: Is terrified, tries to get out of bed and find the means to defend herself as Cullen advances.

Cullen: Brutally violates Mage

Mage: Is crying and rolled into fetal position and in great pain

Cullen: You made me break my vows. Maker forgive me. I can't live like that. She is a witch, she must be one. Looks at shivering and crying mage. It is you who is to blame. Mages are evil, the Chantry is right. Cuts mage's throat
Cullen: I am cleansed. Thank you, Maker.

Your journey ends here....

Ick . . . That's actually how I see it as well.  He's really very creepy.

[Sabriana]

Thanks, Ejoslin. I just don't see any other way for Cullen. When my mage asked him if he would really have struck the killing blow, his answer made a chill go up my spine, especially the "but I would have felt bad about it" bit.

He's completely wrapped up in religion, Chantry, and lyrium addicted. How can that end well? Up in the tower he was so nasty about everything, and his rant about "her" was chilling once again. Oghren tried to be nice and reassuring (in the "Oghren" way) and boy did he jump into his face. The nastiness continued.

Gah! I'm getting so tired of Zevran being looked at so shallowly. My only reconciliation is that those shallow players will miss a huge part of the story, be he friend or lover. And I mean THE story, not his story.

This place here will now be the place I run to and suck my thumb and be pat-patted and where I can vent my displeasure. My safe Zevran-Haven. Yay.

Edited because English Grammar is different than German Grammar

Modifié par Sabriana, 10 février 2010 - 01:01 .

[ejoslin]

Zevran is amazing because instead of coldness, he has an amazing resilience that allowed him to keep some compassion. What bothers me is when people expect him to have a heart of gold underneath it all, and of course he won't, and he wouldn't seem real if he did. The fact that he is completely pragmatic just fits him. And the fact that he was taught, from the time he was 7, to be an assassin, and he was a good one -- it's all he knows, and it gave him a freedom and life that most elves couldn't even dream having.



My favorite part of his character, though, is that he is completely unbowed. He will tell off anyone, he will offer is opinion anywhere, and he is right when he does so. I like the pragmatic view -- my PCs usually are not pragmatic, sometimes they're naive, sometimes they're jaded, so having him there is a pretty good balance.



So many just don't get Zevran. They think his stories are boasts (though they put him in a bad light). They miss the times he thanks the warden for showing him a new way, giving him new beginning. And sadly, so many miss that he knows that the wardens will die, and he wants to do everything he can to prevent that, even if it means dying himself.



Selfish? I have seen nothing that indicates that he is selfish. He if anyone is the only one who comments on the Warden's pain, or is concerned if she's sad, and he doesn't put his problems on her (unlike every other companion).

[jenovan]

Looool, Sabriana, I think I read that fic somewhere... XD
Cullen is creepy and I admit that's part of the appeal (although if you play a male mage, you definitely don't get the same vibe), but... yeah, no. 

Zevran is a much deeper character -- surprisingly so, as a lot of folks have found!  And um, represents the opportunity for a much healthier relationship. XD  *waves Zevran flag*

I completed the Trial of Crows last night and was a little disappointed not to get anymore tidbits of dialogue from Zevran. :<  But he got some nice gloves out of it, I guess that's good. ;D

Edit: WOW, who would claim Zevran is selfish?! He's probably the least selfish companion (besides Dog)!  He doesn't even ask you to do a personal quest, it just inevitably happens.  He constantly offers the PC the chance to decide his fate (maddeningly, sometimes XD), and really never asks for anything besides his life to be spared.  Which, as he says, makes him more useful to the PC, so hey.   How could anyone see him as selfish? Oo

Modifié par jenovan, 10 février 2010 - 01:48 .

[AndreaDraco]

That quest always baffled me from a roleplaying perspective. OK, certainly my mage wouldn't meddle with the Crows (he offed Ignacio), but even my dalish rogue couldn't decide whether to partecipate or no. I mean, I can't fathom what Zev would think if the Warden were to empark upon a Crows quest

[Sabriana]

That's another one of my pet peeves. The poor guy was abused and used his whole life. I don't even want to know what exactly they did to him in the brothel, it's way too disturbing. What came after is explained more in detail.

Yes, he's an assassin. An assassin who wishes to commit suicide by Grey Warden. Because he's hurt, betrayed, and because his conscience is killing him. My PC asks him wether he didn't feel anything for Rinna. His answer? "I convinced myself that I didn't."
Deciding to commit suicide is not an easy decision, especially not for someone who is surrounded by death at all times. Pleasure and death is all he knows, and I believe those are even his exact words.

He's a slave, and if he didn't do as he was told, he'd be dead. People expect 25+ years of brainwashing and torture to go away in an instant, and turn him into Saint Zevran. It's impossible. It's a miracle in itself that he even can grow and soften. That he even can feel remorse, and admit it. That he can trust, and love. Or simply be a very loyal friend.

He says he never had a real friend before. In 25+ years, the guy had no one to truly trust, not one single friend. He still grows pretty quickly, considering that he has to learn (Note: not re-learn, but learn) everything from the bottom up. But that makes no difference to some people.

[Sabriana]

AndreaDraco wrote...

That quest always baffled me from a roleplaying perspective. OK, certainly my mage wouldn't meddle with the Crows (he offed Ignacio), but even my dalish rogue couldn't decide whether to partecipate or no. I mean, I can't fathom what Zev would think if the Warden were to empark upon a Crows quest

The Crows are wily. The quests are almost all related to the main quest and Loghain. Ignacio picked well, he knows that once the PC looks at the quests, she can't walk away from them, especially the first one.

Thanks Jenovan. Btw, what does a male mage get from Cullen? Is he the one slated to chop off the mage's head if he fails the Harrowing? Does he say anything at all, or is he just decoration?

[Creature 1]

I was running through dialogues yesterday trying to get the whole story on that mage who succeeded in tricking him before her accidental death and wanted opinions on one line.  If you ask him for a story about the Crows he asks something like whether you want to hear about the grueling training, being locked in an oubliette for weeks at a time, and festering wounds.  If you ask "Was it that bad?" he says, "That never happened to me."  Was he talking about the fate of recruits that didn't make the cut (or perhaps prisoners used for assassination practice), or just plain lying?  

[ejoslin]

What I think really gives Zevran away as NOT being selfish is when he compares his life to the Warden's, and if a noble (either Dwarf or Human) points out to him that their lives are nothing alike, he accuses them of just looking at surface things. He sees the pain underneath but more than that, he sees the strength of the warden. One of my favorite quotes of his is from that exchange, when he says, "Are we so different, you and I? Buffeted by the winds of fate, brought to this point by both circumstance and excellence?" Yes, he definitely respects himself, and respects the warden for the same reasons. And I like that he looks beneath the surface and truly appreciates the person that the warden is.

[Sabriana]

I always felt that he lied about it not being him. He sounds almost the same as in the 'wood-nymph' statement, and we all know that that's a lie. I think that those who don't survive the locking away, and the festering wounds are the one's that die 'in training'. Those who survive get tortured some more.

I mean "Nothing better than a good racking?" Come on, knock it off Zevran. My PC saw you being afraid and she heard you saying "bad memory" and "bad nightmare". Tsk, tsk.

Edited 'cause Ejoslin made me do it:

Yes, where Alistair 'forgets' what the NH went through, Zevran spots it without even being told.

Modifié par Sabriana, 10 février 2010 - 02:13 .

[ejoslin]

Creature 1 wrote...

I was running through dialogues yesterday trying to get the whole story on that mage who succeeded in tricking him before her accidental death and wanted opinions on one line.  If you ask him for a story about the Crows he asks something like whether you want to hear about the grueling training, being locked in an oubliette for weeks at a time, and festering wounds.  If you ask "Was it that bad?" he says, "That never happened to me."  Was he talking about the fate of recruits that didn't make the cut (or perhaps prisoners used for assassination practice), or just plain lying?  

It's hard to say.  You know he was tortured to see if he could withstand pain, but the extreme torture I doubt he went through, though I'm sure that he saw plenty of torture.  He never talks about torturing people (unlike, ummm, Leliana who tried seduction first always), but you don't hear too many details.  

Edit: And now I read Sabriana's post.  Zevran most definitely was tortured, but festering wounds would leave bad scars, and I think bad scars are avoided, though I'm sure that he saw plenty of people going through this with him die, have festering wounds, and crack.  His test to see if he could withstand pain was being put on the rack and tortured.  There could have been more; I hate to even think about what the recruits were put through.  You do know that only the strongest survived the training.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 février 2010 - 02:14 .

[Creature 1]

Lel tortured people?!

[ejoslin]

Creature 1 wrote...

Lel tortured people?!

I believe so.  She was not an assassin, she was a bard.  She preferred using seduction to get information, but she does say it was an alternative to torture, that she found it kinder.  But she never says she didn't resort to it.  I guess that is open to interpretation.

[Creature 1]

Leliana is so weird. She didn't even have a compelling reason for what she did, like devotion to a cause. She just got told to kill people or fetch this or that information and went out and did it. She didn't have to know why they were targeted, or whether they actually deserved to die. Zevran at least knew it was him or them, Leliana doesn't appear to have felt threatened by Marjolaine and did what she did because she wanted to.

[mousestalker]

Creature 1 wrote...

Leliana is so weird. She didn't even have a compelling reason for what she did, like devotion to a cause. She just got told to kill people or fetch this or that information and went out and did it. She didn't have to know why they were targeted, or whether they actually deserved to die. Zevran at least knew it was him or them, Leliana doesn't appear to have felt threatened by Marjolaine and did what she did because she wanted to.

She did it for the woman she loved. Does that make her actions better or worse? But that is the explanation.

[Creature 1]

Worse. If my husband told me to go out and kill some guy with no explanation I'd be grabbing my keys and heading out the door to see a divorce lawyer. If the explanation was "He has some intelligence documents I want to sell to China" I'd be contacting the CIA on the way.

[ejoslin]

Leliana did not only do it out of love. She also enjoyed it.

Edit: There's no slavery, no torture, no being forced into the life.  She may have fallen in love with someone who used her, but she loved the life.  She enjoyed the hunt, she enjoyed getting the information, she enjoyed murdering.  She found a new path in the chantry, but she certainly gave that up quickly as soon as she had an even better offer.

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 février 2010 - 02:40 .

[mousestalker]

Oh, I agree. But I've known, and you probably have as well, some people who really would 'do anything for love'. Lelianna is drawn to strong authority figures. Back to the original topic, Zevran is more complete as a person and more willing to stand on his own.

[Creature 1]

She doesn't have the excuse of a desensitizing background either. She didn't grow up in poverty, she wasn't involved in warfare. She had a privileged childhood, probably equating to an upper middle class existence, maybe the only "trauma" being always around the upper class but excluded from it since she was just the companion of a rich woman.

[ejoslin]

You know, maybe that's why Leliana seems like a better person than Zevran, not as ruthless on the surface. Leliana was raised differently, knows a different life, and so is able to slip into many different roles whereas Zevran only knew one life so is unable to just slip into another role so easily. That is why his change is so much more genuine feeling. Because it's not so much that he changes as he finds a new way to live.

[Sialater]

Leliana compartmentalizes better? Dunno if that's a good thing to praise....

[ejoslin]

Heh, just heard a new conversation between Zevran and Leliana (I haven't run with them together that much).  Here it is:

Leliana: We have many things in common, Zevran
Zevran: Other than our purity and beauty?
Leliana: We both spent many years in places other than Ferelden.  You are an assassin, and I, a bard.
Zevran: Then you were called upon to kill.
Leliana:  Often.  I didn't like it, but I did it anyway.
Zevran: You didn't like it? You didn't like the thrill of the hunt?
Leliana: I suppose... I did like that.  The hunt... not the killing.
Zevran: The killing just signals the end of the hunt.  Without it, the chase goes on. You killed your marks cleanly, I hope.
Leliana: Whenever possible.
Zevran: Good, when the prey is caught, it deserves a good death, a clean death.
Zevran: Perhaps you are right; we have much in common.

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 février 2010 - 03:12 .

[Sialater]

Yeah, my Cousland heard that one. It was a bit frightening. Though given Zevran's other conversations with Morrigan, I'm thinking he was feeling out the girls for their trustworthiness toward the Warden. He's the only one who comes into the party suspecting everyone else, not taking the Wardens word for their character.