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[Aroihkin]

sami jo wrote...

The thing with all the folks who go on and on about how they wouldn't touch Zev with a ten foot pole because "eww disease!" is that they do not level the same accusation against Morrigan and Leliana. Both of them make it quite clear that they are quite experienced and Lel tells you all about seducing a man to kill him. Normally that would bring down screams of "sl*t!" but it doesn't. Perhaps it's because those folks don't ever get that far with Morrigan and Lel pretends to be so sweet and pure until you actually listen to what she says. Actually, aside from Sten (who clearly isn't virginal but doesn't say much beyond that) and Shale who doesn't remember a time when such things would have been possible, Al is the only one of your companions who doesn't have a long list of former lovers. Even several non-recruitable NPCs make it clear that they would hook up with you (and some do). Yet Zev gets labeled the wh*re because he doesn't hide it. It's an odd phenomenon. Of course, pointing that fact out to those who are screaming about what an icky wh*re he is is an exercise in futility.

Morrigan talks about seducing, having her way, and then killing guys too, as Flemeth expects her to do so.

Zev plays it up and such, but I think even if he didn't people would still focus on him as the party bicycle since he starts off flirting right out of the gate, no matter the character's gender or race, and never mind that at least two of the other characters have, many times, also batted their eyelashes at someone they then turned around and killed.

"Well, Morrigan's mother!" "Well, Leliana's teacher!" ...Well, we can say the same for Zevran and the entirety of the Antivan Crows, can't we?  Not to mention the wh*re-house... he even uses his "rep" and the like to deflect questions. He's got a swiss-army leer, he does.

Personally I find his flirting harmless, and it's so easy to tell him to stop without even offending him. Leliana, meanwhile, sneeaaaks it in there and then decides seemingly on her own that the PC and her are a thing. That annoys me way more than Zev's beautiful/handsome comments...

Edit: Repost, but I still love this grin.

Modifié par Aroihkin, 24 avril 2010 - 07:25 .

[sami jo]

Minaleth wrote...

sami jo wrote...

The thing with all the folks who go on and on about how they wouldn't touch Zev with a ten foot pole because "eww disease!" is that they do not level the same accusation against Morrigan and Leliana. Both of them make it quite clear that they are quite experienced and Lel tells you all about seducing a man to kill him. Normally that would bring down screams of "sl*t!" but it doesn't. Perhaps it's because those folks don't ever get that far with Morrigan and Lel pretends to be so sweet and pure until you actually listen to what she says. Actually, aside from Sten (who clearly isn't virginal but doesn't say much beyond that) and Shale who doesn't remember a time when such things would have been possible, Al is the only one of your companions who doesn't have a long list of former lovers. Even several non-recruitable NPCs make it clear that they would hook up with you (and some do). Yet Zev gets labeled the wh*re because he doesn't hide it. It's an odd phenomenon. Of course, pointing that fact out to those who are screaming about what an icky wh*re he is is an exercise in futility.

sami, I see your points and they are excellent, but I think the dislike towards Zevran has another source. He does hit on PC and this can be quite uncomfortable if the player does not like the character. There is no character that clicks with everyone and there will always be people that will instinctively dislike the character, the extra reason to rationalize their own (in fact irrational) dislike is just convenient point on their minus list. *end of amateur psychology intermezzo*

Quite likely, and I've heard screams about that from folks who kill him for hitting on them.  He stops flirting entirely if you tell him it isn't wanted, though.  Not that those folks care.  It's the "How dare you find me attractive!" crew. 

[Nonvita]

Sami, was that seriously your first time? That is remarkably bad! Good thing it worked out later!

[barkingM1]

soignee wrote...



Ah, s!ut shaming. How you make me rage.

Would mention I've seen Morrigan called all sorts of nasty things. Leliana never seems to get it, probably thanks to her duplicious persona, which is why I've never really warmed to her... Beyond the shoe thing. Oooh! Shoes!

McQueen?

[soignee]

webbedfeet wrote...

@aroihkin : Re virginity as an emotional kink : There is something to be said for being the first person to share a significant experience with another person for the first time. I just figure the value should lie in the emotional aspect of it (i.e. discovering something new about your relationship, which you can totally do with ALL your LIs) rather than the physical, but then again, I'm just not in touch with my physical side in general and may be missing something. As with all things, I suppose I should be contented to call it YMMV, even though the argument vexes me. *sigh* (No, I'm not arguing with you, in case I don't make myself clear. Which is often.)

YMMV is almost as over used as different strokes for different folks.

Another point, I suppose, would be that Alistair's virginity isn't really his choice. It's a forced issue in his upbringing, much like promiscuity was a forced issue in Zev's or Lel's or arguably Mo-Mo's. Therefore it baffles me that it should be used as a yardstick for his value as a romantic partner or as a person; judging from his approval rise-and-fall, wouldn't he be as experienced as your average Fereldan if he didn't grow up in the Chantry? He certainly doesn't view sex as some dirty thing. Why do we?

This is a good point. A very good point. I wonder if there's anything loreish about about the Chantry's views on sex? Because Andraste did cuckold her husband with the Maker after all...

@ejoslin : I would rant, but it really would be a long tirade. XD I suppose the short version would be "Do people realize that Thedas' sexual mores are more along the lines of Morrigan than Alistair? And if they don't, is it because his being the most likable character at the start colored their perceptions, or if, as argumentative as it sounds, it's because they try to find something in his character that agrees with their personal perceptions?"

For this comment alone you get Barrowhand for the evening. Return it to me thoroughly washed, please. Preferably through a high wash in the dishwasher. *glares at CZ for what he did last time*

That is one long sentence. Also on your second rant : because a penis is dirtier than a vagina, of course. You wouldn't want that thing sticking into you! Women are self-cleaning and pure as long as their heart is true!

brb, lolling! Yeah, you're not allowed to lurk anymore. COMMMME BACCKKKKKKK.

[Ramante]

sami jo wrote...

First time resulted in:
* 1 concussion
* 1 sprained wrist
* Angry neighbor in apartment below about the loud crash that caused said concussion and sprained wrist
* flying condoms
* discovery of latex allergy in the worst way possible
* most embarrassing trip to the ER ever
* visit from police who did not believe the story of how concussion came to be
* hysterical laughter from roommate (who I had teased mercilessly about loud sex with his boyfriend) and regular retelling of that story by that roommate (including a telling at my wedding...to a completely different man)
We got it right the second time.

I'm so grateful that I knew about my latex allergy before my first time. xD
Pretty sure my ex was happy too, since he had seen my response to latex when I had a 'balloon encounter' on his sister's birthday. (me almost choking wasn't fun to watch, I think)

[Minaleth]

Lol, sami jo, that is freakin funny story! Sorry

[Bootsykk]

sami jo wrote...

Minaleth wrote...

sami jo wrote...

The thing with all the folks who go on and on about how they wouldn't touch Zev with a ten foot pole because "eww disease!" is that they do not level the same accusation against Morrigan and Leliana. Both of them make it quite clear that they are quite experienced and Lel tells you all about seducing a man to kill him. Normally that would bring down screams of "sl*t!" but it doesn't. Perhaps it's because those folks don't ever get that far with Morrigan and Lel pretends to be so sweet and pure until you actually listen to what she says. Actually, aside from Sten (who clearly isn't virginal but doesn't say much beyond that) and Shale who doesn't remember a time when such things would have been possible, Al is the only one of your companions who doesn't have a long list of former lovers. Even several non-recruitable NPCs make it clear that they would hook up with you (and some do). Yet Zev gets labeled the wh*re because he doesn't hide it. It's an odd phenomenon. Of course, pointing that fact out to those who are screaming about what an icky wh*re he is is an exercise in futility.

sami, I see your points and they are excellent, but I think the dislike towards Zevran has another source. He does hit on PC and this can be quite uncomfortable if the player does not like the character. There is no character that clicks with everyone and there will always be people that will instinctively dislike the character, the extra reason to rationalize their own (in fact irrational) dislike is just convenient point on their minus list. *end of amateur psychology intermezzo*

Quite likely, and I've heard screams about that from folks who kill him for hitting on them.  He stops flirting entirely if you tell him it isn't wanted, though.  Not that those folks care.  It's the "How dare you find me attractive!" crew. 

Agreed--and while some people may argue that Zevran flirts even after you ask him to stop, it's nothing raunchy, even... he'll just give you a compliment here and there. I don't think you can connect some catcalls to Zevran being an STD-laden pig who only thinks about sex. Thats a little over the top. He's just teasing, and some people may be a little shy about that, but to react violently is ridiculous.

[Herr Uhl]

Nonvita wrote...

You sound a little bitter there, Herr.

Not really, but I do look forward to telling my (potential) kids abut how magical my first time was.

Need a hug?

Always.

[soignee]

barkingM1 wrote...

McQueen?

McQueen commited suicide earlier on in the year He did amazing shoes. Well, his acessories designer did, anyway.

[sami jo]

Nonvita wrote...

Sami, was that seriously your first time? That is remarkably bad! Good thing it worked out later!

Yep. I was a good Catholic school girl.  I had never even made out with someone when I graduated from high school, and my first time was with my high school bf who, obviously, was not any more experienced.  It was incredibly embarrassing, but funny.  Seventeen years later it's hysterical.

[Charsen]

sami... that is... amazing. (your first time, i mean)

also, to webbed... stop lurking and join us---

Modifié par Charsen, 24 avril 2010 - 07:18 .

[Aroihkin]

sami jo wrote...

Aroihkin wrote...

Ugh, I tipe reel gud today too. Finger's got a little bit of oozyness to it this morning, but seems to be healing up. Still is a pain, though.

*offers cookies for morale*

<3<3

webbedfeet wrote...

@aroihkin : Re virginity as an emotional kink : There is something to be said for being the first person to share a significant experience with another person for the first time. I just figure the value should lie in the emotional aspect of it (i.e. discovering something new about your relationship, which you can totally do with ALL your LIs) rather than the physical, but then again, I'm just not in touch with my physical side in general and may be missing something. As with all things, I suppose I should be contented to call it YMMV, even though the argument vexes me. *sigh* (No, I'm not arguing with you, in case I don't make myself clear. Which is often.)

Another point, I suppose, would be that Alistair's virginity isn't really his choice. It's a forced issue in his upbringing, much like promiscuity was a forced issue in Zev's or Lel's or arguably Mo-Mo's. Therefore it baffles me that it should be used as a yardstick for his value as a romantic partner or as a person; judging from his approval rise-and-fall, wouldn't he be as experienced as your average Fereldan if he didn't grow up in the Chantry? He certainly doesn't view sex as some dirty thing. Why do we?

@ejoslin : I would rant, but it really would be a long tirade. XD I suppose the short version would be "Do people realize that Thedas' sexual mores are more along the lines of Morrigan than Alistair? And if they don't, is it because his being the most likable character at the start colored their perceptions, or if, as argumentative as it sounds, it's because they try to find something in his character that agrees with their personal perceptions?"

That is one long sentence. Also on your second rant : because a penis is dirtier than a vagina, of course. You wouldn't want that thing sticking into you! Women are self-cleaning and pure as long as their heart is true!

I wasn't saying there isn't any appeal in said emotional kink, there just isn't much of one for me. Hell, I've even written it (in TAF, not in IO). But would I pass up a guy I liked purely because he was a virgin? Nah. Would I purely because he wasn't? Nah.

Your last point -- yes. Male bisexual characters actually do seem to get more flak than their female counterparts, and naturally bi always equals ****ty! (I say that with irony, having heard it so much. Ugh.) It's the old "I'm fine with gay sex as long as both chicks are hot, hurr de durr!" at play. Playing a flirty bisexual Bluerider on a Pern game earned me far more flak than just as flirty female characters were getting in the exact same scenes, and T'nnusen wasn't even actually interested in any of the characters involved, while the girls were.

And Zev is no more promiscuous than Leliana, he probably hasn't even tapped anyone since Rinna, though either way he's not getting any during Origins unless it's with the Warden, and he seems fine with that.

[Cuddlezarro]

holy ****ing crap the realisic bodies mod added a new female DWARF texture instead of another nude elf/human female one! ...now if only it was a male one...

[soignee]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

holy ****ing crap the realisic bodies mod added a new female DWARF texture instead of another nude elf/human female one! ...now if only it was a male one...

orly? *goes off to check*

[ejoslin]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

holy ****ing crap the realisic bodies mod added a new female DWARF texture instead of another nude elf/human female one! ...now if only it was a male one...

!!!!! YAY!

[Minaleth]

sami jo wrote...

Nonvita wrote...

Sami, was that seriously your first time? That is remarkably bad! Good thing it worked out later!

Yep. I was a good Catholic school girl.  I had never even made out with someone when I graduated from high school, and my first time was with my high school bf who, obviously, was not any more experienced.  It was incredibly embarrassing, but funny.  Seventeen years later it's hysterical.

See, that's what I mean by stories *gives sami jo cookies* can we keep you? :3 

[Aroihkin]

sami jo wrote...

First time resulted in:
* 1 concussion
* 1 sprained wrist
* Angry neighbor in apartment below about the loud crash that caused said concussion and sprained wrist
* flying condoms
* discovery of latex allergy in the worst way possible
* most embarrassing trip to the ER ever
* visit from police who did not believe the story of how concussion came to be
* hysterical laughter from roommate (who I had teased mercilessly about loud sex with his boyfriend) and regular retelling of that story by that roommate (including a telling at my wedding...to a completely different man)

We got it right the second time.

Brb, dead of lol. Sympathetic lol especially at the allergy bit, but lol nonetheless. XD

[sami jo]

Minaleth wrote...

sami jo wrote...

Nonvita wrote...

Sami, was that seriously your first time? That is remarkably bad! Good thing it worked out later!

Yep. I was a good Catholic school girl.  I had never even made out with someone when I graduated from high school, and my first time was with my high school bf who, obviously, was not any more experienced.  It was incredibly embarrassing, but funny.  Seventeen years later it's hysterical.

See, that's what I mean by stories *gives sami jo cookies* can we keep you? :3 

Now that you have caught me, I'm afraid that you are stuck with me.

[Cuddlezarro]

now if only some one would make a better nude mode for MALE dwarves... seriously they need work desperately expecially the lower regions

[barkingM1]

soignee wrote...

webbedfeet wrote...


Another point, I suppose, would be that Alistair's virginity isn't really his choice. It's a forced issue in his upbringing, much like promiscuity was a forced issue in Zev's or Lel's or arguably Mo-Mo's. Therefore it baffles me that it should be used as a yardstick for his value as a romantic partner or as a person; judging from his approval rise-and-fall, wouldn't he be as experienced as your average Fereldan if he didn't grow up in the Chantry? He certainly doesn't view sex as some dirty thing. Why do we?

This is a good point. A very good point. I wonder if there's anything loreish about about the Chantry's views on sex? Because Andraste did cuckold her husband with the Maker after all...


brb, lolling! Yeah, you're not allowed to lurk anymore. COMMMME BACCKKKKKKK.

One of Zevran's comments to the MC:  to a female, "You are a woman to stoke the desire of men and women alike."  To a man:  "Burn me in the Chantry if you must, but you are a man to stoke the desire of women and men alike"   That right there sounds like the Chantry is pretty uptight about free love.  Plus the whole celibacy thing for templars.

webbedfeet, stick around! 

[Minaleth]

sami jo wrote...

Minaleth wrote...
See, that's what I mean by stories *gives sami jo cookies* can we keep you? :3 

Now that you have caught me, I'm afraid that you are stuck with me. 

 :wub:

[Jayelet]

Juneya wrote...

sami jo wrote...

Minaleth wrote...

sami jo wrote...

The thing with all the folks who go on and on about how they wouldn't touch Zev with a ten foot pole because "eww disease!" is that they do not level the same accusation against Morrigan and Leliana. Both of them make it quite clear that they are quite experienced and Lel tells you all about seducing a man to kill him. Normally that would bring down screams of "sl*t!" but it doesn't. Perhaps it's because those folks don't ever get that far with Morrigan and Lel pretends to be so sweet and pure until you actually listen to what she says. Actually, aside from Sten (who clearly isn't virginal but doesn't say much beyond that) and Shale who doesn't remember a time when such things would have been possible, Al is the only one of your companions who doesn't have a long list of former lovers. Even several non-recruitable NPCs make it clear that they would hook up with you (and some do). Yet Zev gets labeled the wh*re because he doesn't hide it. It's an odd phenomenon. Of course, pointing that fact out to those who are screaming about what an icky wh*re he is is an exercise in futility.

sami, I see your points and they are excellent, but I think the dislike towards Zevran has another source. He does hit on PC and this can be quite uncomfortable if the player does not like the character. There is no character that clicks with everyone and there will always be people that will instinctively dislike the character, the extra reason to rationalize their own (in fact irrational) dislike is just convenient point on their minus list. *end of amateur psychology intermezzo*

Quite likely, and I've heard screams about that from folks who kill him for hitting on them.  He stops flirting entirely if you tell him it isn't wanted, though.  Not that those folks care.  It's the "How dare you find me attractive!" crew. 

Agreed--and while some people may argue that Zevran flirts even after you ask him to stop, it's nothing raunchy, even... he'll just give you a compliment here and there. I don't think you can connect some catcalls to Zevran being an STD-laden pig who only thinks about sex. Thats a little over the top. He's just teasing, and some people may be a little shy about that, but to react violently is ridiculous.

Absolutely.

For me there is only one reason, after having read it in forums in English or Spanish. Homophobia

[Aroihkin]

(random leering) I'd burn Zev in the Chantry, sure! Rug burns. (/random leering)

[barkingM1]

soignee wrote...

barkingM1 wrote...

McQueen?

McQueen commited suicide earlier on in the year He did amazing shoes. Well, his acessories designer did, anyway.

 Yah, I know.  Wish creativity & pain didn't have to be hand in hand so often.

Modifié par barkingM1, 24 avril 2010 - 07:29 .