174 réponses à ce sujet

[RecoonHoodie]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

 What changes need to be made to end the exploit of speed runs? 

What?

[Massa FX]

I'm not sure I've run across this yet... if someone is camping a spawn point... camp with them.

Don't mean to trivialize the OP, but its a coop game.

... or is the complaint based on who lands in first place? Ego issue?

[NuclearTech76]

Randomized spawn points regardless of player location but that is not going to happen.

[tMc Tallgeese]

Speed runs and camping matches are a fact of cooperative horde modes. Players can choose either path and neither one is necessarily easier than the other.

Camping requires high durability and damage resistant builds with moderate DPS and a high level of situational awareness on the part of teammates to succeed. Covering all access points regardless of enemy position is important due to respawns and team location. Prioritizing targets hinges on fast moving units that use flush tactics, while slower units can be dealt with afterwards. Area of Effect weapons and powers are essential as the enemy will bunch up at entry points and provide the highest damage/score potential. Snipers and assault rifles are the primary choices amongst these players and DoT powers facilitate combos. Communication is a must due to the responsibility of players having to keep watch over their respective killzones.

Speed runs require high DPS and low cooldown rates. Teammates must coordinate fire and understand target prioritzation. The key is to remain in motion and understand that the guy behind you will pick off the remaining health on the enemy at your flank. Objective waves must be handled quickly and only down the enemies that are most likely to halt progress, to prevent a large number of respawns that could offset priorities. Advanced understanding of spawn points and choke points are needed to successfully complete a speed run. Although time is a deciding factor in these matches, personal goals do not necessarily have to align with community standards to be valid. Shotguns, Pistols and SMGs are the most commonly chosen weapons along with Debuff powers.


These are just my thoughts, feel free to dispute them amongst yourselves.

DISCLAIMER: The opinions and information contained within this post are the sole opinions and thoughts of the deranged individual and not representative of other players, BSN forum or BioWare.

[78stonewobble]

Massa FX wrote...

I'm not sure I've run across this yet... if someone is camping a spawn point... camp with them.

Don't mean to trivialize the OP, but its a coop game.

... or is the complaint based on who lands in first place? Ego issue?

I don't know ...  Out of my subjective experience around 8/10 are willing to camp with me.

EDIT and PS: Meaning I spend alot more time playing as others find fun versus other people playing like I have fun... For the sake of teamplay.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 11 octobre 2012 - 06:13 .

[mjb203]

I find it funny that all of the speed-runners are upset over this thread and claim that camping on FBW was exploitation of game mechanics.

Look, sometimes I like to speed run, other times I may want to camp. Depends on the class I'm playing. But to claim that FBW was an exploit that needed to be fixed while you're manipulating spawn points is absurd. If camping behind the counter on FBW or in the room of shame on Glacier is exploiting, then manipulation of spawn points is as well!

The speed runners need to get off their high horse and the campers need to accept the changes to White and Glacier, and Bioware should respect both play styles and not favor one over the other.

[Gunboat Diplomat]

mjb203 wrote...

I find it funny that all of the speed-runners are upset over this thread and claim that camping on FBW was exploitation of game mechanics.

Look, sometimes I like to speed run, other times I may want to camp. Depends on the class I'm playing. But to claim that FBW was an exploit that needed to be fixed while you're manipulating spawn points is absurd. If camping behind the counter on FBW or in the room of shame on Glacier is exploiting, then manipulation of spawn points is as well!

The speed runners need to get off their high horse and the campers need to accept the changes to White and Glacier, and Bioware should respect both play styles and not favor one over the other.

Very well put

[TheloniusBear]

I fully agree that speed running takes skill, but lets be honest: it is exploiting game mechanics similar to how camping does. Fact: camping exploited geth on FB:W because they dont have grenediers and they are easily grabable in that location. Fact: Speed running exploits spawn mechanics. Just because it takes more skill, and a lot more of it, to do doesn't deter from the fact that it in fact is an exploit as well. You are using your knowledge of game mechanics to your benefit. Campers know the game mechanics that allowed camping the comp room in FB:W and speed runners have learned the different maps spawn location thresholds to force the game to spawm mobs in specific locations. I think both are perfectly fine ways of playing if that is your cup of tea. Everyone should play how they want, but lets be honest with ourselves here!

Edit:

Damn I got straight 'd

Modifié par TheloniusBear, 11 octobre 2012 - 06:34 .

[SlimJim0725]

mjb203 wrote...

I find it funny that all of the speed-runners are upset over this thread and claim that camping on FBW was exploitation of game mechanics.

Look, sometimes I like to speed run, other times I may want to camp. Depends on the class I'm playing. But to claim that FBW was an exploit that needed to be fixed while you're manipulating spawn points is absurd. If camping behind the counter on FBW or in the room of shame on Glacier is exploiting, then manipulation of spawn points is as well!

The speed runners need to get off their high horse and the campers need to accept the changes to White and Glacier, and Bioware should respect both play styles and not favor one over the other.

Except enemies can and will actually fight back in a speed run. There is a huge difference between exploiting knowledge of the map and exploiting something like spamming powers behind a wall where you can hit the enemy and they can't hit you or hiding behind a counter exploiting a grab because the enemy can't hit you. Speed running leaves you exposed nearly the entire game and I can promise not every enemy dies the instant they spawn and often times can and will kill you before you can even "nuke" the spawn.

I have no issue with camping whatsoever and I personally didn't care what people did in FBW (I always host or play with people that don't do that sort of thing). To actually compare the 2 though is absurd and I can promise far more people can camp over run around and do it well.

[upinya slayin]

78stonewobble wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

The "exploit" of camping has been eliminated. What changes need to be made to end the exploit of speed runs?  I think part of the solution will have to involve somehow stopping spawn point rushing.

how is speed running an expliot? it takes skill and coordination and teamwork ot complete. you are also completly on your own most of the time.

Camping is mindless. FBWGG could litearlly be done with 1 hand spamming decoy and grab. its an expliot.

Personally if i was BW i would have keyed teh objectives on glacier and white to always be a hack or escort which forces the whole team out. a pizza and devices can be done with a simple shadow on your team by themselves. targets come to you.


Aslo speed running takes skill. you can't combat player skill w/o making the game cheap and impossible for the lesser skilled people. camping doens't take skill really.

I tend to think that it is an exploit of the fixed spawn positions.

Truely random spawns or a 5-10 sec. spawn immunity for the ai would make speedrunning alot harder but is probably impossible due to rather small size of the maps.

EDIT and PS: I don't mind people speed running but I don't find it fun. I want to camp more than run and I'm spending quite alot of time running.

the thing you have to remember is spawns are not fixed. each map has at least 4-7 spawn points on them, they need to be forced into an area by proper positioining. on top of that you still need to wipe out enemies while out in the open w/o dying. not every enemy is killed by a missile. also you need to get an angle on the spawn and actually hit with the missile. if someone is out os posisition it can elad to a teammate getting what i call "spawn raped" which is when enemies spawn on both sides of you in an open area.

A random spawn still wouldn't matter becuase you can have all 4 people eyeing 2 possible spawns each and immediatly rocketing them. it would actually be easier IMO. just posiiton 1 player in a spot where they can hit 2 spawns each if need be and the waves would be fast as hell you wouldn't even have to move lol. like glacier. balcony hits nook and LZ, basement stayys in the basement and hits it if they spawn on top, 1 in the darkroom for that spawn and 1 in the hallway. you could clear a wave w/o even moving.

and giving them spawn immunity makes no sense. you want to give them 5 seconds to attack you while invincible? you do know they have a 1-3 second immunity after appearing already right? you have to time it good enough to pass teh immunity but not let them spread.

If you liek camping i have no problem with that. eveyrone plays differntly. I sued to camp while i worked my way up on the skils ladder. we'd pick a room on each map and hold it down. it got boring though sitting in one spot and felt too easy after a while. The idea is to kill things. Its not fun sitting in a spot waiting for an enemy to come to you IMO. but if you enjoy the slower pace (kinda like how SP is) thats fine with me. But even SP insanity mode bored me now. MP is where the fun is at

[NatrixHasYou]

I hate when people don't play the game the way I want them to, also!

[Invader Nemesis]

Since when doing something that requires skill an exploit?

[upinya slayin]

Slimjim0725 wrote...

Op is a troll, just let it drop. He was the same one whining in another thread how farming required more brainpower and skill than speed running (seriously, how in the world does sitting behind a counter only preforming grabs take either?). I challenged him in that thread to post a time better than any other speed run posted (do it any way you want, come up with your own strategy to do it as well by the way).

Camping isn't really difficult and neither is speed running. However, when you combine the 2 speed running becomes far more difficult because of 1 or more players blocking off a spawn you may not want blocked, only good players know how to counter that. Hate to break it to you OP, but speed running will not be stopped unless enemies literally just spawn randomly around the map. Also, keep being mad that you can't beat Gold now and have to go back to a difficulty you belong in (I paid my dues in both Bronze and Silver before even attempting Gold, you should do the same).

Thats the thing too. see people who cna't beat gold w/o using sheap tactics and exploiting the AI shouldn't be playing gold. I understand the store AI sucks but like you I worked my way up. I'd rather play silver and have fun then play gold and sit behind a boring counter. all you do at that point is turn it into a grind of unlockables instead of having fun. I had fun earning the lone wolf badge. It wasn't easy but it wasn't a boring grind (ok the bronze matches were lol) but the gold and silver were fun and challenging.

[mjb203]

Slimjim0725 wrote...

Except enemies can and will actually fight back in a speed run. There is a huge difference between exploiting knowledge of the map and exploiting something like spamming powers behind a wall where you can hit the enemy and they can't hit you or hiding behind a counter exploiting a grab because the enemy can't hit you. Speed running leaves you exposed nearly the entire game and I can promise not every enemy dies the instant they spawn and often times can and will kill you before you can even "nuke" the spawn.

I have no issue with camping whatsoever and I personally didn't care what people did in FBW (I always host or play with people that don't do that sort of thing). To actually compare the 2 though is absurd and I can promise far more people can camp over run around and do it well.

They can also fight back in camping situations. I farmed a bit of FBWGG after pyros became ungrabbable and they sure fought back. Also, you need to leave the camping spots for objective waves anyway, so they'll fight back there too. 

Exploitation is exploitation no matter how you dress it up.

[mjb203]

bjiogyof icyr wrote...

mjb203 wrote...

I find it funny that all of the speed-runners are upset over this thread and claim that camping on FBW was exploitation of game mechanics.

Look, sometimes I like to speed run, other times I may want to camp. Depends on the class I'm playing. But to claim that FBW was an exploit that needed to be fixed while you're manipulating spawn points is absurd. If camping behind the counter on FBW or in the room of shame on Glacier is exploiting, then manipulation of spawn points is as well!

The speed runners need to get off their high horse and the campers need to accept the changes to White and Glacier, and Bioware should respect both play styles and not favor one over the other.

Very well put

Thank you sir!

[upinya slayin]

LadyNemsis21 wrote...

Since when doing something that requires skill an exploit?

Since FBW and glacier got changed and people are mad

[Invader Nemesis]

upinya slayin wrote...

LadyNemsis21 wrote...

Since when doing something that requires skill an exploit?

Since FBW and glacier got changed and people are mad

Yeah well they need to get over it.

[The Perception]

Shpoon wrote...

Really good players will always find a way to face & overcome challenges put up to them. You can't stop speed runs, you can't nerf great players.

Well you can nerf the good players out of a game... Just make it unenjoyable for them...

[MajorBlazkowicz]

I don't know if anyone talks about this, but when enemies spawn they have increased stats for 5 secs so you can't spawn kill with conventional weapons fast enough.

Therefore, rockets are used to eliminate spawns, spamming high powered grenades will clear spawns too, but you will burn through those faster then rockets.

[Beerfish]

I would like to see several more spawn points per map and have them operate or not on random basis. Thus you couldn't be sure that by position the players at ABCD that the spawn will always be at E. With the equality of skills and weapons and sch in these games the huge high scoring machine is whoever knows where things are going to spawn.

[RainMane]

Spawn killing is...clever use of in-game mechanics.

[LuckyBullet95]

Anyone can camp White. Not everyone can run a 13 minute Ghost run or run Goddess in 10 minutes.

An exploit is-by definition-a fault in the game's programming that can be abused to any players advantage in order to trivialise what is usually a fairly complex task.

So, once I see DNC Protoman do a 12 minute Condor speedrun using only original Turians I'd say sure, what the hell, end speedrunning. Because honestly? The day the game is easy enough for someone like Protoman to pull that off is probably several days after I quit the game because BioWare announced the new "Retardation" DLC in which all the enemies spin around on the spot and fire bunny rabbits that vomit sunshine and rainbows.

[mjb203]

Beerfish wrote...

I would like to see several more spawn points per map and have them operate or not on random basis. Thus you couldn't be sure that by position the players at ABCD that the spawn will always be at E. With the equality of skills and weapons and sch in these games the huge high scoring machine is whoever knows where things are going to spawn.

I think that would be a great idea. Of course, I'm sure there would be massive rage on the forums afterward, but it would make for more interesting waves! 

[mjb203]

LuckyBullet95 wrote...

Anyone can camp White. Not everyone can run a 13 minute Ghost run or run Goddess in 10 minutes.

An exploit is-by definition-a fault in the game's programming that can be abused to any players advantage in order to trivialise what is usually a fairly complex task.

So, once I see DNC Protoman do a 12 minute Condor speedrun using only original Turians I'd say sure, what the hell, end speedrunning. Because honestly? The day the game is easy enough for someone like Protoman to pull that off is probably several days after I quit the game because BioWare announced the new "Retardation" DLC in which all the enemies spin around on the spot and fire bunny rabbits that vomit sunshine and rainbows.

So, I'm sure you'd be all for a kroguard nerf, as their game mechanics can easily be exploited by anyone regardless of skill to solo gold matches?

[upinya slayin]

LadyNemsis21 wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

LadyNemsis21 wrote...

Since when doing something that requires skill an exploit?

Since FBW and glacier got changed and people are mad

Yeah well they need to get over it.

I wonder if your online boyfriend is crying right now lol