174 réponses à ce sujet

[OuterRim]

There is little difference between Speedrunning and Camping. Both have the same goal: to easily earn credits, hence both are farming techniques. The difference is the skill sets required, and Speedruns require the use of more consumables, but also have a much better time to credits ratio.

The issue is that BW declared war on campers. Are the Speedrunners next?

[LuckyBullet95]

Oh yeah and mjb, I never once said that FBW needed to be fixed because it was an exploit, I said it needed to be fixed because it was an exploit that was being abused so much in public games that it made the overall experience in pugs much less fun, those who camped FBW generally played safer, they had no flanks to check and had a beautiful bottleneck chokepoint.

There was no skill in sitting their and hammering everything that lined themselves up... There was skill in creating such a beautifully easy camp farm but no one who camps FBW will ever be as good as they guy who created the strategy. Why? Because they have no actual knowledge of spawn points. They just know (well... knew) that enemies don't spawn in a flanking position if you are sit behind the desk.

Did you know though that-if you position a player in the burning lab, a player in themain office, a player in the side room and a player under the bridge on Jade-that you can easily force a spawn in the center part of the map near the hack point that's there? And did you know that immediately after rocketting or attacking that spawn, if only the first and last player move then enemies will be guaranteed to spawn in either the burning lab (if player A moved outside of it and into the spawn whilst B remained at least at the bottom of the stairs leading to the spawn) or under/next to the bridge (if Player B entered the enemy spawn point and A stayed in the labs). This allowed Player A to hardly move and leaving Player B to leave the bridge area, attack the spawn and then swoop back round beneath the bridge to rocket/nuke a second full spawn?

[SlimJim0725]

mjb203 wrote...

Slimjim0725 wrote...

Except enemies can and will actually fight back in a speed run. There is a huge difference between exploiting knowledge of the map and exploiting something like spamming powers behind a wall where you can hit the enemy and they can't hit you or hiding behind a counter exploiting a grab because the enemy can't hit you. Speed running leaves you exposed nearly the entire game and I can promise not every enemy dies the instant they spawn and often times can and will kill you before you can even "nuke" the spawn.

I have no issue with camping whatsoever and I personally didn't care what people did in FBW (I always host or play with people that don't do that sort of thing). To actually compare the 2 though is absurd and I can promise far more people can camp over run around and do it well.

They can also fight back in camping situations. I farmed a bit of FBWGG after pyros became ungrabbable and they sure fought back. Also, you need to leave the camping spots for objective waves anyway, so they'll fight back there too. 

Exploitation is exploitation no matter how you dress it up.

I've "held the line" plenty back when I first started playing (no FBW though) and I would not say that camping is exploiting. FBW and FBG was exploiting cause you could literally do it without getting hit pretty much. OMG, you had to pop out and shoot 2 enemies instead of one (Primes and Pyros), what ever will you do? Speed running keeps you out of cover and very vunerable which is why you see tons of consumable use where as you see little to none of FBW.

So you have to move out of a nearly completely safe spot for 3 waves? How on earth do you compare that to being out in the open for 11? Foolish arguement is foolish. Speed runs take tons of coordination to keep the enemies spawning in the positions you would like them to and one out of position player can get another killed easily since you are basically alone the entire game. Again, a comparison of the 2 is terrible, but I am not shocked seeing it from people since many don't understand how much has to be done in a real speed run for it to go well.

[Seneva]

+100 kudos to OP for starting a succesfull trol post!

[mrcanada]

You can still camp, you just need to do it in different ways. Sorry that you are forced to play on a different map now.

Obvious troll thread that you all bit on. As I am now.

[mrcanada]

OuterRim wrote...

There is little difference between Speedrunning and Camping. Both have the same goal: to easily earn credits, hence both are farming techniques. The difference is the skill sets required, and Speedruns require the use of more consumables, but also have a much better time to credits ratio.

The issue is that BW declared war on campers. Are the Speedrunners next?

Huge difference. If you can't see it, I'm not going to explain it.

[LuckyBullet95]

mjb203 wrote...

LuckyBullet95 wrote...

Anyone can camp White. Not everyone can run a 13 minute Ghost run or run Goddess in 10 minutes.

An exploit is-by definition-a fault in the game's programming that can be abused to any players advantage in order to trivialise what is usually a fairly complex task.

So, once I see DNC Protoman do a 12 minute Condor speedrun using only original Turians I'd say sure, what the hell, end speedrunning. Because honestly? The day the game is easy enough for someone like Protoman to pull that off is probably several days after I quit the game because BioWare announced the new "Retardation" DLC in which all the enemies spin around on the spot and fire bunny rabbits that vomit sunshine and rainbows.

So, I'm sure you'd be all for a kroguard nerf, as their game mechanics can easily be exploited by anyone regardless of skill to solo gold matches?

Well actually yes. The Kroguard is the most durable class in the game, almost anyone can solo Gold using him as long as they are smart enough to avoid insta-kills (every average gold player could solo Kroguard vs. Geth/Gold).

Have you tried dying on a Kroguard? It's actually one of the hardest things to do in game. I'd be all for a minor buff to Kroguard, perhaps give him less health than other Krogan to make up for him having Biotic Charge. Especially now that Rage is working on him.

[SlimJim0725]

OuterRim wrote...

There is little difference between Speedrunning and Camping. Both have the same goal: to easily earn credits, hence both are farming techniques. The difference is the skill sets required, and Speedruns require the use of more consumables, but also have a much better time to credits ratio.

The issue is that BW declared war on campers. Are the Speedrunners next?

Any real speed runner is not after the credits. They are out to set fast times for each map, simple as that. I have maxed my manifest and still do it to see if I can come up with a better time on a map than someone else has put up.

[sh4d0w_d4nc3r]

OP should feel bad

[LuckyBullet95]

Slimjim0725 wrote...

OuterRim wrote...

There is little difference between Speedrunning and Camping. Both have the same goal: to easily earn credits, hence both are farming techniques. The difference is the skill sets required, and Speedruns require the use of more consumables, but also have a much better time to credits ratio.

The issue is that BW declared war on campers. Are the Speedrunners next?

Any real speed runner is not after the credits. They are out to set fast times for each map, simple as that. I have maxed my manifest and still do it to see if I can come up with a better time on a map than someone else has put up.

To be honest I'm out a little for the credits, but then again I've got horrible luck with the RNG. I love to set the best times I can and the only real source of enjoyment is when I'm playing with Tatty forming a strategy for maps like Dagger, Rio and Hydra. But getting 82500-151000 creds a match is definately a huge plus for me.

[Caldari Ghost]

LuckyBullet95 wrote...

Anyone can camp White. Not everyone can run a 13 minute Ghost run or run Goddess in 10 minutes.

An exploit is-by definition-a fault in the game's programming that can be abused to any players advantage in order to trivialise what is usually a fairly complex task.

So, once I see DNC Protoman do a 12 minute Condor speedrun using only original Turians I'd say sure, what the hell, end speedrunning. Because honestly? The day the game is easy enough for someone like Protoman to pull that off is probably several days after I quit the game because BioWare announced the new "Retardation" DLC in which all the enemies spin around on the spot and fire bunny rabbits that vomit sunshine and rainbows.

[NuclearTech76]

Are we assuming these speed runners are talentless scrubs that can't play the game when not speed running?

To adjust the game at this point for speed running would be beyond stupid, most have maxed their manifest already. The problem here as with a lot of topics on BSN is someone is incapable of doing something that others do well and thinks it should be eliminated. Let everyone play the game the way they want.

[Gunboat Diplomat]

It's obvious speed running requires skill, coordination, use of consumables etc, and camping in the old fbw did not. The fact remains that both tactics consist of using AI mechanics to the players advantage. I don't understand why speedrunners get so defensive on this thread, just as I never understood campers who kept saying that camping in fbw took skill.

[mjb203]

LuckyBullet95 wrote...

Oh yeah and mjb, I never once said that FBW needed to be fixed because it was an exploit, I said it needed to be fixed because it was an exploit that was being abused so much in public games that it made the overall experience in pugs much less fun, those who camped FBW generally played safer, they had no flanks to check and had a beautiful bottleneck chokepoint.

There was no skill in sitting their and hammering everything that lined themselves up... There was skill in creating such a beautifully easy camp farm but no one who camps FBW will ever be as good as they guy who created the strategy. Why? Because they have no actual knowledge of spawn points. They just know (well... knew) that enemies don't spawn in a flanking position if you are sit behind the desk.

I agree with these points. If someone was hosting a FBWGG game, they should have stated if their intent was to camp to farm or not. I understand the frustration from people not being able to find U/U/G games, don't get me wrong.

What I'm not a fan of is speed runners looking down at the campers even though for the most part they are both after quick credits. Heck, if it wasn't for FBWGG, I don't think I would've tried to make the jump from silver to gold. It provided me with a fairly safe way to get my feet wet in gold and see the differences in spawn budgets, so it provided a nice stepping stone.

[OuterRim]

mrcanada wrote...

OuterRim wrote...

There is little difference between Speedrunning and Camping. Both have the same goal: to easily earn credits, hence both are farming techniques. The difference is the skill sets required, and Speedruns require the use of more consumables, but also have a much better time to credits ratio.

The issue is that BW declared war on campers. Are the Speedrunners next?

Huge difference. If you can't see it, I'm not going to explain it.

I explained the difference, but farming is still farming. Period.

[mjb203]

Also, LuckyBullet95, I was not aware of the last paragraph of your post! Sorry I had to cut it out as I'm typing on my phone.

Also, I hope I didn't come across too uppity regarding the kroguard! I only made that comment as it seems that a vast majority of non campers seem to prefer him for gold.

[OuterRim]

Slimjim0725 wrote...

OuterRim wrote...

There is little difference between Speedrunning and Camping. Both have the same goal: to easily earn credits, hence both are farming techniques. The difference is the skill sets required, and Speedruns require the use of more consumables, but also have a much better time to credits ratio.

The issue is that BW declared war on campers. Are the Speedrunners next?

Any real speed runner is not after the credits. They are out to set fast times for each map, simple as that. I have maxed my manifest and still do it to see if I can come up with a better time on a map than someone else has put up.

I agree, and I'm sure many a speedrunner enjoys trying to break those recods, but many a camper loved camping too. BW didn't seem to care, so I'm not sure they will here either.

[LuckyBullet95]

mjb203 wrote...

LuckyBullet95 wrote...

Oh yeah and mjb, I never once said that FBW needed to be fixed because it was an exploit, I said it needed to be fixed because it was an exploit that was being abused so much in public games that it made the overall experience in pugs much less fun, those who camped FBW generally played safer, they had no flanks to check and had a beautiful bottleneck chokepoint.

There was no skill in sitting their and hammering everything that lined themselves up... There was skill in creating such a beautifully easy camp farm but no one who camps FBW will ever be as good as they guy who created the strategy. Why? Because they have no actual knowledge of spawn points. They just know (well... knew) that enemies don't spawn in a flanking position if you are sit behind the desk.

I agree with these points. If someone was hosting a FBWGG game, they should have stated if their intent was to camp to farm or not. I understand the frustration from people not being able to find U/U/G games, don't get me wrong.

What I'm not a fan of is speed runners looking down at the campers even though for the most part they are both after quick credits. Heck, if it wasn't for FBWGG, I don't think I would've tried to make the jump from silver to gold. It provided me with a fairly safe way to get my feet wet in gold and see the differences in spawn budgets, so it provided a nice stepping stone.

I don't neccassarily look down on the FBW runners, hell I think everyone has camped FBW at some point, however there gets to a point where people need to choose between bettering themselves or not. You said yourself that you started as a White camper and then moved on. Some people don't move on though, and it is reflected in overall player skill. The player(s) who created the White tactic was pretty damn smart, the players who abuse the White tactic will never get to the creator(s) level of skill or to the skill level of players who have left White and/or Glacier.

White and Glacier were farmed for being the most safe and secure camp spots in the game, a player can camp on any map, and I wouldn't mind if they did that but unfortunately some people don't. Some of the highest N7 Ratings in the UK (not gonna name anyone and yes, N7 means nothing but it's just to give some form of credance or something, I don't know to the players involved) are FBW camp farmers who only really spammed the map (I was with them at the time obviously) but I just didn't enjoy it after a while and ended up contacting AreleX and joining Team AreleX and becoming what I consider a decent speedrunner.

[LuckyBullet95]

mjb203 wrote...

Also, LuckyBullet95, I was not aware of the last paragraph of your post! Sorry I had to cut it out as I'm typing on my phone.

Also, I hope I didn't come across too uppity regarding the kroguard! I only made that comment as it seems that a vast majority of non campers seem to prefer him for gold.

No you didn't. It was a fair point, and yes I do indeed think the Kroguard should be nerfed, not to the extent of the Krysae but yes a Krogan Sentinel is durable enough but give him Biotic Charge and they are nearly unstoppable. Since you read the paragraph, do you think your average White camper could come up with a strategy like that?

[Invader Nemesis]

OuterRim wrote...

There is little difference between Speedrunning and Camping. Both have the same goal: to easily earn credits, hence both are farming techniques.

Ummm wrong. Speed runs about getting the fastest time. The credits are just a bonus,

[vware]

Is speedrunning considered an exploit? I thought it's something like a sport. Trying your best to finish as quickly as you can...

[Invader Nemesis]

upinya slayin wrote...

LadyNemsis21 wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

LadyNemsis21 wrote...

Since when doing something that requires skill an exploit?

Since FBW and glacier got changed and people are mad

Yeah well they need to get over it.

I wonder if your online boyfriend is crying right now lol

Most likely. FBW was his favorite. I wish I had been in that game the first time he played the new white. Lol.

[Striker93175]

Only way to remove speed runs is random spawns... a few enemies at a time, and 0 ability to control a spawn.

3 from spawn a at the same time 5 from spawn b and d. 2 sec later a b and c all spawn 2 enemies, following by spawn a 6 enemies, half a sec later spawn a and spawn d. 10 second later all spawns drop 2 enemies, then a, c and d spawn 6... etc. entire team at a spawn point b? ... sorry 5 enemies just suddenly appear on top of you literally from no where. deal with it.

EDIT:  Also, not an exploit.  Sorry OP.

EDIT EDIT:  Also, get a lobby of friends and simply delete the DLC.  Speed run and farm all you want w/ old maps. *shrug*

Modifié par Striker93175, 11 octobre 2012 - 07:51 .

[Seneva]

LadyNemsis21 wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

LadyNemsis21 wrote...

Since when doing something that requires skill an exploit?

Since FBW and glacier got changed and people are mad

Yeah well they need to get over it.

Yeah well, you haters need to get over it.

[mjb203]

LuckyBullet95 wrote...

mjb203 wrote...

Also, LuckyBullet95, I was not aware of the last paragraph of your post! Sorry I had to cut it out as I'm typing on my phone.

Also, I hope I didn't come across too uppity regarding the kroguard! I only made that comment as it seems that a vast majority of non campers seem to prefer him for gold.

No you didn't. It was a fair point, and yes I do indeed think the Kroguard should be nerfed, not to the extent of the Krysae but yes a Krogan Sentinel is durable enough but give him Biotic Charge and they are nearly unstoppable. Since you read the paragraph, do you think your average White camper could come up with a strategy like that?

Edit: explorative should be exploitative.

No, I don't believe the average white camper could. And yeah, a lot of the campers were clearly trying to play above their skill level. And truth be told, I'm still not real comfortable in gold. I have no mic (which is an easy way to get booted, although thankfully all matches I've been in on gold have been pretty silent).

At least it seems we're coming from similar standpoints here, even if I do believe manipulation of spawns is as explorative as FBW camping was. But for the most part, it seems speed runners keep those matches on private, which is what FBW campers should have done from the start (or as I stated earlier, make those intentions known before starting the match).

Modifié par mjb203, 11 octobre 2012 - 07:55 .