174 réponses à ce sujet

[upinya slayin]

78stonewobble wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

the thing you have to remember is spawns are not fixed. each map has at least 4-7 spawn points on them, they need to be forced into an area by proper positioining. on top of that you still need to wipe out enemies while out in the open w/o dying. not every enemy is killed by a missile. also you need to get an angle on the spawn and actually hit with the missile. if someone is out os posisition it can elad to a teammate getting what i call "spawn raped" which is when enemies spawn on both sides of you in an open area.

A random spawn still wouldn't matter becuase you can have all 4 people eyeing 2 possible spawns each and immediatly rocketing them. it would actually be easier IMO. just posiiton 1 player in a spot where they can hit 2 spawns each if need be and the waves would be fast as hell you wouldn't even have to move lol. like glacier. balcony hits nook and LZ, basement stayys in the basement and hits it if they spawn on top, 1 in the darkroom for that spawn and 1 in the hallway. you could clear a wave w/o even moving.

and giving them spawn immunity makes no sense. you want to give them 5 seconds to attack you while invincible? you do know they have a 1-3 second immunity after appearing already right? you have to time it good enough to pass teh immunity but not let them spread.

If you liek camping i have no problem with that. eveyrone plays differntly. I sued to camp while i worked my way up on the skils ladder. we'd pick a room on each map and hold it down. it got boring though sitting in one spot and felt too easy after a while. The idea is to kill things. Its not fun sitting in a spot waiting for an enemy to come to you IMO. but if you enjoy the slower pace (kinda like how SP is) thats fine with me. But even SP insanity mode bored me now. MP is where the fun is at

I know they're not fixed per say but as you say proper positioning can "fix" the spawns in place. Even if you get caught out of position you can (Personally i can't remember everything yet) anticipate where they will come from down to the second.

To me it just seems weird/cheap/exploitive (a little of each) that I can take 2 steps to the right. Then take 2 steps to the left and I've relieved the pressure of my teammates by "allowing" enemies to spawn on my flank.

So what I meant by "random" spawning was something like having reapers crawl over every edge of firebase white as an example  ... Wholly unpredictable... But with the engine as it is / maps small it would lead to way too much "MAN THE AI IS CHEAP!" moments.

In any case all I'm saying is that some of us like to be campy at times and have fun with that.

PS: I play u/u/s so it's not like I've been farming any map ad libitum. I like to camp in ALL of them.

if you do U/U/S and camp all the time you;d probably have more fun doing U/U/B and running around honestly.

I play mostly U/U/G and run around all teh time cause i find it more fun then U/U/P
U/U/P seems like too much work sometimes and if i'm playing with a bunch of randoms i know i can't carry them through it. I can carry them though gold relatively easily though

[ForTuchanka]

najzere wrote...

Speed limit signs and speed bumps.

Clearly that is the solution.  We need massive amounts of in-game waist high cover populating every open space to stop people from running around the map quickly to pick off stray enemies in speed runs.  This will have the added benefit of discouraging people from playing the volus as their gameplay will more resemble Bomberman than Mass Effect due to their height and inability to take cover.  There is only one acceptible gameplay speed and that is walking... not running or standing still.  In the immortal words of a now retired game designer, "Stop and pop!". 

[Epique Phael767]

I don't think speedruns need to be removed. Anyone could farm FBWGG, it takes an actual good team to speedrun.

[plain numbers]

Leave. Speedruns. Alone.

Ha, like you can even stop us! Lemme see you try, Bioware!

[BouncyFrag]

[tMc Tallgeese]

I shall put forth the only solution no one has considered....

....kill all of the players on both sides of the fence and leave those who use no strategy.

[ForTuchanka]

tMc Tallgeese wrote...

I shall put forth the only solution no one has considered....

....kill all of the players on both sides of the fence and leave those who use no strategy.

If you leave those who play with no strategy, you're still leaving 99.5% of randoms I've encountered.  That isn't pruning much. 

[78stonewobble]

upinya slayin wrote...
if you do U/U/S and camp all the time you;d probably have more fun doing U/U/B and running around honestly.

I play mostly U/U/G and run around all teh time cause i find it more fun then U/U/P
U/U/P seems like too much work sometimes and if i'm playing with a bunch of randoms i know i can't carry them through it. I can carry them though gold relatively easily though

Njarrj I don't camp the entire time. I have some good spots where I like to lure the enemy. Then move if starting to get pushed hard, for objectives or to help out team mates.

Running from spawn to spawn... Well it just ... uhm ... makes me yawn.

Skillwise I'd say I definately pull my weight in silver but I'm not good enough to solo objectives.

[Kazztore]

Raiden Storm wrote...

I hate the idea of spawning randomly around the map. They should have made the enemies entry onto the battlefield more elaborate for example:
Geth ships drops enemies onto the map all over the place
At the beginning of the round it says "Cerberus assault breach" as they blow their way through multiple entry doors over the map or simply show up in ships like the one we arrive in.
Reapers similar to Geth but have an actual reaper appear in the sky and fire the troops down.
Collectors can just walk through the door and say "where baaack".

Everything you said except the Collector's part sounds awesome! The Reapers should fall down in those fireballs from the sky, places like Vancouver and Rio should have visible Reapers around the background. The Collector's  should say "We're baaaack" instead. 

[upinya slayin]

78stonewobble wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...
if you do U/U/S and camp all the time you;d probably have more fun doing U/U/B and running around honestly.

I play mostly U/U/G and run around all teh time cause i find it more fun then U/U/P
U/U/P seems like too much work sometimes and if i'm playing with a bunch of randoms i know i can't carry them through it. I can carry them though gold relatively easily though

Njarrj I don't camp the entire time. I have some good spots where I like to lure the enemy. Then move if starting to get pushed hard, for objectives or to help out team mates.

Running from spawn to spawn... Well it just ... uhm ... makes me yawn.

Skillwise I'd say I definately pull my weight in silver but I'm not good enough to solo objectives.

and if you have fun that way do you thing. eveyrone enjoys somehting different.

But don't knock speed running till you try it. based on what you said I don't think you'd ever survive a platinum speed run or even a gold. wait till a teammate misses 2 phantoms on the 1st spawn and you have to dodge them with your rocket out and not get killed while waiting for a teammate to hit the 2nd spawn so you can get the 3rd one lol. or if people mess up and your on platinum surrouned on every side by primes, atlasses, and banshees with your glass cannon of 500 shield and 250 health lol. then tell me yawn

[BouncyFrag]

I guess if you want to at least distrupt them, you could always be that clueless noob that rushes the first spawn point before a wave starts messing up the first speed run point. So annoying.
<_<

[78stonewobble]

upinya slayin wrote...

and if you have fun that way do you thing. eveyrone enjoys somehting different.

But don't knock speed running till you try it. based on what you said I don't think you'd ever survive a platinum speed run or even a gold. wait till a teammate misses 2 phantoms on the 1st spawn and you have to dodge them with your rocket out and not get killed while waiting for a teammate to hit the 2nd spawn so you can get the 3rd one lol. or if people mess up and your on platinum surrouned on every side by primes, atlasses, and banshees with your glass cannon of 500 shield and 250 health lol. then tell me yawn

Haha nah I wouldn't put others through having to drag me through the higher difficulties. I like my games with a bit more breathers in between.

[Geek]

Let's add a gear that can raise the total of group missiles from 20 to 32. That will stop it.

Seriously though there is nothing you can really to stop speed running or camping. No matter what they change we are always going to find the fastest, most efficient way of doing things, as well as the easiest. Every map and enemy can be speed run or camped on.

[AreleX]

this guy is a known troll, he used to troll the da2 strategy forums with obnoxious threads meant to provoke people. he's not looking to be persuaded to the contrary, just get a rise out of you. i got linked to this thread, and i'm only posting to notify people of this, if it wasn't already obvious.

just ignore this clown and keep moving.

Modifié par AreleX, 11 octobre 2012 - 10:33 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

AreleX wrote...

this guy is a known troll, he used to troll the da2 strategy forums with obnoxious threads meant to provoke people. he's not looking to be persuaded to the contrary, just get a rise out of you. i got linked to this thread, and i'm only posting to notify people of this, if it wasn't already obvious.

just ignore this clown and keep moving.

I do not appreciate you calling me a clown or a troll.

It is also false to say I trolled the DA2 strategy forums or tried to provoke anyone. The only provocation I see being done is by you.

I made an observation and asked a question.  Some people thought camping was a problem and Bioware has addressed camping. I think speed runs, specifically the spawn point rushing part,  is an abuse of the way the game was indended to be played and that Bioware should try to stop spawn point rushing. If you disagree that is fine, but insulting me because you disagree is not fine.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 11 octobre 2012 - 11:34 .

[mrs_anomaly]

I see no reason why speedruns should be protested..? Here's an idea, if you don't like speedruns, play slowly.
I don't do speedruns very often but seriously why would you OP have an ISSUE with a speedrun? Just..why?

[OuterRim]

mrs_anomaly wrote...

I see no reason why speedruns should be protested..? Here's an idea, if you don't like speedruns, play slowly.
I don't do speedruns very often but seriously why would you OP have an ISSUE with a speedrun? Just..why?

I agree, but I had no problem with campers either, but BW did. We can't control what they might troll next. Speedrunners could be the next target, but probably not since they use a lot of consumables to do their work.

[SlimJim0725]

OuterRim wrote...

mrs_anomaly wrote...

I see no reason why speedruns should be protested..? Here's an idea, if you don't like speedruns, play slowly.
I don't do speedruns very often but seriously why would you OP have an ISSUE with a speedrun? Just..why?

I agree, but I had no problem with campers either, but BW did. We can't control what they might troll next. Speedrunners could be the next target, but probably not since they use a lot of consumables to do their work.

BW apparently had a problem with how TWO maps were being camped. They were literally being exploited (as I have explained before) to where powers as well as enemies were balanced around them. Want to know why Geth had the change to be more difficult? To curb FBW farming. It did not help it, but it did make the game take a bit more effort for them since they had more Primes around to deal with. Power changes? Electric Slash/Biotic Slash and Smash were given longer cooldowns after they were spammed over and over behind a wall where the player could not be hit. That affected the players that used those powers legit due to the long animation of all of them.

As I said before, I have no issues with a player camping at all. In my early days of Gold before I had some players advise me better (and I actually listened and watched) I was a "camper" per se. I would still move to objectives and move positions if the team was overrun, but that often didn't happen because I could still hold down nearly an entire side alone. If you want to camp it is perfectly fine by me, just don't come on BSN whining about "kill-stealing" when I am running around attacking an entire spawn by myself (and I won't whine about using my consumables to take care of myself). Just don't expect me to have any sympathy for a player that played one or two maps only over and over to gain weapons they basically never use. Had players done "farming" in moderation or on more than the two maps I doubt they would have changed much at all.

tl;dr: Camping is not the issue. Exploiting 1 enemy on 1 map (FBWGG) or any enemy on another map (Glacier room) was the issue. Speed runners have proven we can do it on ANY map because we play EVERY map. While speed runners have their favorites (my personal favorite is Goddess), I have 2 pretty good times on maps that aren't often done as speed runs (Goddess and Condor) and there are multiple ways each map could be done fairly quickly (Team AreleX tournament proved that since none of the teams ran the same strategy).

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Slimjim0725 wrote...

tl;dr: Camping is not the issue. Exploiting 1 enemy on 1 map (FBWGG) or any enemy on another map (Glacier room) was the issue. Speed runners have proven we can do it on ANY map because we play EVERY map. While speed runners have their favorites (my personal favorite is Goddess), I have 2 pretty good times on maps that aren't often done as speed runs (Goddess and Condor) and there are multiple ways each map could be done fairly quickly (Team AreleX tournament proved that since none of the teams ran the same strategy).

Speed running revolves around exploiting the vulnerability of enemies as they spawn. Missiles/grenades are used to completely wipe out a spawn before the enemies even have a chance to react. If that is not an exploit I don't know why missile glitching should be considered an exploit.

Nothing at all about camping any map should be considered an exploit because camping is merely taking a defensive position and certainly many characters NEED to play defensively.

Maybe spawns need to be changed to give the enemies a couple of seconds of invulnerability  as they are spawning so their AI can kick in before they get annhilated. And also spread them out more.  Bigger rooms, or spawn them along corridors so they are not all bunched together for a an easy mass kill.

How about spawning them behind cover?

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 12 octobre 2012 - 11:33 .

[SlimJim0725]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Slimjim0725 wrote...

tl;dr: Camping is not the issue. Exploiting 1 enemy on 1 map (FBWGG) or any enemy on another map (Glacier room) was the issue. Speed runners have proven we can do it on ANY map because we play EVERY map. While speed runners have their favorites (my personal favorite is Goddess), I have 2 pretty good times on maps that aren't often done as speed runs (Goddess and Condor) and there are multiple ways each map could be done fairly quickly (Team AreleX tournament proved that since none of the teams ran the same strategy).

Speed running revolves around exploiting the vulnerability of enemies as they spawn. Missiles/grenades are used to completely wipe out a spawn before the enemies even have a chance to react. If that is not an exploit I don't know why missile glitching should be considered an exploit.

Nothing at all about camping any map should be considered an exploit because camping is merely taking a defensive position and certainly many characters NEED to play defensively.

Maybe spawns need to be changed to give the enemies a couple of seconds of invulnerability  as they are spawning so their AI can kick in before they get annhilated. And also spread them out more.  Bigger rooms, or spawn them along corridors so they are not all bunched together for a an easy mass kill.

Try nuking a spawn on Goddess. They do have a second or two of invunerability (clearly noticed when you hit the second spawn with 2 Atlases and only 1 takes damage). Spawns can easily be mowed done by more than grenades and missiles as well.

Camping any map is not considered exploiting by the way. Spamming a power from behind a wall where you literally can not be hit and hiding behind a counter preforming nearly only grabs was. Camp any map you want, it doesn't bother me or any other "speed runner" that you need to play defensively. The only issue was the 2 maps which is why they were changed (mainly because they were the only 2 that even saw much play because of it).

[upinya slayin]

Slimjim0725 wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Slimjim0725 wrote...

tl;dr: Camping is not the issue. Exploiting 1 enemy on 1 map (FBWGG) or any enemy on another map (Glacier room) was the issue. Speed runners have proven we can do it on ANY map because we play EVERY map. While speed runners have their favorites (my personal favorite is Goddess), I have 2 pretty good times on maps that aren't often done as speed runs (Goddess and Condor) and there are multiple ways each map could be done fairly quickly (Team AreleX tournament proved that since none of the teams ran the same strategy).

Speed running revolves around exploiting the vulnerability of enemies as they spawn. Missiles/grenades are used to completely wipe out a spawn before the enemies even have a chance to react. If that is not an exploit I don't know why missile glitching should be considered an exploit.

Nothing at all about camping any map should be considered an exploit because camping is merely taking a defensive position and certainly many characters NEED to play defensively.

Maybe spawns need to be changed to give the enemies a couple of seconds of invulnerability  as they are spawning so their AI can kick in before they get annhilated. And also spread them out more.  Bigger rooms, or spawn them along corridors so they are not all bunched together for a an easy mass kill.

Try nuking a spawn on Goddess. They do have a second or two of invunerability (clearly noticed when you hit the second spawn with 2 Atlases and only 1 takes damage). Spawns can easily be mowed done by more than grenades and missiles as well.

Camping any map is not considered exploiting by the way. Spamming a power from behind a wall where you literally can not be hit and hiding behind a counter preforming nearly only grabs was. Camp any map you want, it doesn't bother me or any other "speed runner" that you need to play defensively. The only issue was the 2 maps which is why they were changed (mainly because they were the only 2 that even saw much play because of it).

i'd listen to this. slim and geekfest are 2 of the best players and stratagist i've played with. and thats saying alot. I hear great things about arelex too but never played wiht him so i cna't judge 1st hand lol

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Slimjim0725 wrote...

Camping any map is not considered exploiting by the way. Spamming a power from behind a wall where you literally can not be hit and hiding behind a counter preforming nearly only grabs was. Camp any map you want, it doesn't bother me or any other "speed runner" that you need to play defensively. The only issue was the 2 maps which is why they were changed (mainly because they were the only 2 that even saw much play because of it).

Is shooting through walls and cover an exploit, or only power usage through walls is an exploit?

You assume I'm a camper, I am not. But what is fair is fair. Some people demanded camping be virtually eliminated because they claimed all games were camping games. Well, now the farming will move towards mostly speed runs, and speed runs therefore should be addressed because I don't think most people will find just nuking spawn points all game long to be fun. I am quite certain that is not the way the developers envisioned the game to be played. I'm sure that they can find creative ways to make spawn point rushing not so easy as it is now.

[Topographer]

Speed run lobbies are often private and do not ruin the quick match function but, in my experience, farming lobbies certainly did. In any case, I don't see the harm in simply killing things as fast as possible and I think most people who do find a different sort of challenge and enjoyment in it. Also, note that Bryan Johnson (I think it was) mentioned that he has done plenty of his own speed runs, which probably means Bioware does not see it as an exploit.

[SlimJim0725]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Slimjim0725 wrote...

Camping any map is not considered exploiting by the way. Spamming a power from behind a wall where you literally can not be hit and hiding behind a counter preforming nearly only grabs was. Camp any map you want, it doesn't bother me or any other "speed runner" that you need to play defensively. The only issue was the 2 maps which is why they were changed (mainly because they were the only 2 that even saw much play because of it).

Is shooting through walls and cover an exploit, or only power usage through walls is an exploit?

You assume I'm a camper, I am not. But what is fair is fair. Some people demanded camping be virtually eliminated because they claimed all games were camping games. Well, now the farming will move towards mostly speed runs, and speed runs therefore should be addressed because I don't think most people will find just nuking spawn points all game long to be fun. I am quite certain that is not the way the developers envisioned the game to be played. I'm sure that they can find creative ways to make spawn point rushing not so easy as it is now.

Where has anyone ever claimed that all games were camping games? The only 2 maps I ever saw anyone complain about were White (Geth) and Glacier in the room, spamming a power such as Smash or BS/ES from behind the wall where you couldn't be hit. I have never seen people complain about any other map being camped, because camping on any other map left you somewhat exposed to dying still.

The only way the developers could stop speed running would be to split spawns to where they would spawn in every location regardless of whether a player is "blocking" it or not. I'd imagine that the complaining about the game being more difficult now would seem like a joke to see those threads.

[Skyance]

No. I don't see how my speedrunning violates YOUR gaming life.