493 réponses à ce sujet

[SurelyForth]

ejoslin wrote...


Well, only if he's hardened.  If he's not hardened, you can't fight for it.  Maybe one way to roleplay it is if he's not hardened he did not want to be king, and you making him king makes him love the warden less.

If he's unhardened, all he can see is that he would be putting two people- one of whom he cares about now and the other whom he hopes to care about- in a dishonorable and embarrassing situation.

[ejoslin]

LadyDamodred wrote...

That could be.  You can also look at it that Alistair's never learned to make his own happiness, and so when he is faced with the choice, he chooses what he's always known: duty.

It makes my head spin a bit in truth.

Depending on the timing of the conversation, Alistair may warn the Warden that if he's made king he doesn't know if they'll be able to stay together.  

Edit: I'm certainly not going to argue all aspects of the way the romance can be taken, however.  It's difficult to talk about this particular subject because it's very easy to pick apart opposing points of view piece by piece.  I threw that out as a possibility, but it had a context.

Second edit: My first edit was not directed at LadyDamodred.  It was aimed at all the responses I know I'm going to get about the individual things I typed.  One of these days I'll write a well-thought-out paragraph outlining all my beliefs.  Today is not that day, however.

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 avril 2010 - 08:04 .

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Well, only if he's hardened.  If he's not hardened, you can't fight for it.

That doesn't mean he stops loving the Warden, however.  Only that he is unable to see a way out of what he believes traps him from fulfilling it.

[rak72]

imported_beer wrote...

My husband goes on to say that after seeing the Aimo comic he is more convinced that the person who cared for the FemPC more was Morrigan if she was friends with the female PC. More so than the man who is supposed to be her LI.

I believe I read that they made that comic to show that Mo was more tormented about what she was doing to her friend, than came across in the game.  If they were so worried about it, maybe they shouldn't have had Mo tell Al that he would enjoy this - RIGHT IF FRONT of her BFF.  I was able to convince my self that she was being a friend, trying to help - until that line.  After that, it was like - "oh so thats why you wanted to know how he was in bed - *****).

[LadyDamodred]

imported_beer wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

Well, loving her less as in he values other things more than it, which I don't think it true.  But he has a duty, and his character demands that he do it, regardless of the consequences to himself. 

True, but his conscience seems to take a back seat when you can still tell him to concieve a demon baby. Every other decision with him, it is about the right thing, duty, honor, and all else above his personal feelings. Was demon conception an exception made for love of the PC or is that Alistair conveniently forgetting his conscience? Without further insight, it could be either in my book.

That was the inconsistency that makes me even consider that theory. Also the image of something Maric does at the very end of the Stolen Throne  (won't spoil it for you), that makes me wonder if Alistair is indeed like his father.

That said. meh- just idle thinking.

I think I might romance Leliana next, but Awakening broke my game.

He doesn't forget his conscience, and the demon baby thing bothers him, but not enough that he's willing to risk the death of the woman he loves.  If you do the conversation a certain way, it's one of the things that will cause him to reject it.  His conscience is always there, but his love for you can trump it.  I truly don't see it as an inconsistency.

I've read both books, so I know what you mean.  I think Alistair is incredibly like his father, and that scene seems to me to have a lot of tie-ins to what happens if you betray him at the Landsmeet.

And idle speculation is good.  It makes people think.  We might not agree, but it's nice to see other takes on it.

[Addai]

imported_beer wrote...

That was the inconsistency that makes me even consider that theory. Also the image of something Maric does at the very end of the Stolen Throne  (won't spoil it for you), that makes me wonder if Alistair is indeed like his father.
 

Part of the reason I wondered at Alistair's sincerity at end game is because I wondered if he had a wandering eye, as I assumed Maric also had.  It was actually reading The Calling, however, that changed my mind back to believing that Alistair is as abiding and loyal a lover as there is in the game.  I do see Alistair as being a lot like Maric and thus Maric's character can give us some insight, though the son is not necessarily the father.

*book spoilers*


Before reading the novels, all I knew of Maric was that he had had a couple lovers besides his queen, had fathered one and maybe more bastards, and I assumed he was the typical playboy noble.  That is certainly not the character you see in the novels, however.  He was betrothed to Rowan but as an arranged marriage (highlighting the down side of such marriages, to my mind), and his affair with Katriel can hardly be called a fling when he is still dreaming of her decades later.  It plays a role in him giving in to Fiona.  Despite this, his devotion to Rowan seems to have been a deep one, as well.

If anything, I would characterize Maric as a romantic, who is nevertheless noble and who tries to do the right thing though it is not always obvious what that is.  And I think it can be said that Alistair is very much like that.  If anything, he falls in love too deeply.  No matter how the end game plays out, it seems clear to me that if he was in love with the Warden, she will always be his Katriel, even if she betrays him (i.e. spares Loghain).

Modifié par Addai67, 02 avril 2010 - 08:16 .

[SurelyForth]

imported_beer wrote...
True, but his conscience seems to take a back seat when you can still tell him to concieve a demon baby. Every other decision with him, it is about the right thing, duty, honor, and all else above his personal feelings. Was demon conception an exception made for love of the PC or is that Alistair conveniently forgetting his conscience? Without further insight, it could be either in my book.

Again it's a situation where, if he did outright refuse, the game would be unfair to one specific type of PC (the one in a romance with him).  This is a part of the game where the mechanics can be at odds with characterization.

Crap, I need to change my username to CommasGalore. I have been abusing them all over the place today.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 02 avril 2010 - 08:18 .

[ejoslin]

You could argue that there's an imbalance there because it favors a warden he's in love with over a warden he's just a friend with. Not by much, mind you, but there IS that there.

[SurelyForth]

ejoslin wrote...

You could argue that there's an imbalance there because it favors a warden he's in love with over a warden he's just a friend with. Not by much, mind you, but there IS that there.

Well, there's a difference between making it harder and making it impossible. Although I do think that, considering the implications, his trust in the Warden is paramount so it makes sense that a lover would have the edge.

[ejoslin]

My thought is that there's a lot of things that are unfair in the game, actually. But I think Alistair fully trusts his best friend as well. What is coming into play here is his feelings, not his trust.

[Count Viceroy]

He's male..ish, Morrigan is a hot chick, Easy math really.

[HoonDing]

Count Viceroy wrote...

He's male..ish, Morrigan is a hot chick, Easy math really.

But he's also... Alistair.

[Count Viceroy]

Thats why I said maleish, he's still a horny male, he's just better at hiding it beneath all the crying

[Xalena]

Oh well, well where to begin... I will just throw my "few cent" about this whole thing if you don't mind..You don't have to read this wall of text i just feel somehow to write this sorry but if you feel sleepy, bored you are mostly welcome ;D

When Morrigan came in my room night before battle and told me about ritual I step away from my computer for some walk, taking drink, thinking :happy:... My Pc really loves Alistair, She refused to kill Loghain but let her love to kill him and revenge Duncan death. I felt sorry for Loghain to finish his life in such way but I think it was right thing to do and I put myself in Alistair skin but aswell my char lost "something" that day at Ostagar aswell to just let Loghain walk away with it.

I put Anora to rule in hoping that maybe she will bring redemption and lost old glory to their family name atleast. She is very ambitious woman and I am sure she is good at heart aswell and she will do alot for Ferelden. I hope she fell in love again with someone else because Alistair, I am not giving him to her . I "spared" him to be King as you see. Well he didn't want, no? So I respected that aswell!

I guess that no matter what you are or what you have been before becoming Grey Warden you are still Grey Warden, you will be Grey Warden and you should stay Grey Warden. And Politics, becoming King/Queen? That is just not Grey Warden thing I guess... King, hardened Alistair, he looks so ridicolous and in way how he behaves it is just big lol theater to me and no mention of that he would be probably be very unhappy inside and even won't mention how unhappy my mage would be to see him to sleeping around to make babies because as I know Anora can't bring kids either and I mean Morrigan devil baby is not enough?! And well, atleast I know and I am friend with Morrigan soo maybe it makes things abit easier for my pc, I dunno...
Bla bla bla so on so on

So let's back on DR thingy now, no matter how I wanted to make my mage to be a good person and do good rightfull things, she probably fall in this some test of morality there . Yes I asked him to do it and was totally honest to him about whole the thing. I felt very bad must say. Duncan and Riordan probably wants to get out of grave and twist my neck. This was so no Grey-wardenish. I felt so selfish but I had feeling that is not time to die yet and that my pc and Alistair can do many more good deeds in the world and oh well heavy risk buut I can always go to search for Morrigan and... . I had Morrigan at 100% approval so I guess she cared for me? She knew that saving me will save Alistair aswell, so I guess that is the reason why she gives icy cold look  to Alistair when they meet in hallway. I never felt that there is some attraction between them, chemistry. Oh I think he even wanted her dead, you know betraying her to Flemeth. I dunno more that is maybe because I must admit I never used her in my party since my pc is a mage and had Wynne all long aswell and yes I won't to start to talk about Morrigan constantly disapproving which gets on nerves often but I wanted to be friends to her so I keep her in camp you know for her "safety" and feed her with shiny stuffs hehe.

So, I press esc aswell on their ritual sex scene. I found it ridicolous when I watched it first time, I mean that music (LOL wtf?) and same bodies, same expressions no matter if it is male pc, Loghain, Alistair I don't know if I could call it lazy part on devs side so it didn't touch my nerves too much. Now if he enoyed? Well in my story I imagine him closing his eyes and imagine that it was my Warden. And sex is sex, well he is male yes? Ofc he enoyed it. I am aswell sure she had to use some "special preparations", I mean drugs or something (who knows, she is a witch ya know) to make it more pleasant experience for him. Well it was ritual. I look it was just more than just only sex, I mean chanting strange words in foreign language or whatever, taking stuff . My pc after talked with her at the gate and how I remember she says something like "don't worry, what is done is done, and then she says live gloriously my friend almost trough tears."

I am sure one day that decision will probably bite my pc butt but when I take a look on expansion and see what my pc have done there. I got very good ending in Awakening I must say . Oh yes and epilogue ending how my Pc back to her true love Alistair and they lives happily in their freedom away from poltics and have many little adventures yada yada. I forgive them of lack non-king unhardened Alistair in expansion but was so worth and I mean huh Awakening was pretty rough aswell...sooo I guess it is better that he wasn't there :happy:

Someone says: What Alistair ever done for you? Well fighting on your side, supporting you fully time in most of your decision and showing his love to you oh and that rose is not enough to some people? Really? What more do you want?! Oh yes I even won't mention how painfull scene is when he rushes to sacrifice himself to save his love from death if you refuse DR and take him with you...*shiver* brrr... oh and he says to my char in the end that he can't wait to be with her alone after celebration? And you says he doesn't love pc? ;P oh come on, ok he throwed demon baby thing on her but he still loves her hehe.

Hmm should I stop with my wall of text here? xD I think it is time . ok just few more words... Conclusion: It is obiously we all have different experiences and views on this romance, aswell can affect your view depending on you, how you treat person and what decisions you make. You people who doubt in Alistair love, I guess you are all FHN ;P who forced him to do ritual and forced him to become king xD  aswell tried to change him well go figure out... Seems that you have some deception that is is only happy ending for female pc but when you watch it for long term..hmm.. If Dragon Age 1 will be game where story of my Wardens  and Alistair will be last I hope we get ending where we both heading to Deep Roads for calling and die together.
Sorry for long post, my fingers are very talkative today , I hope I wrote something usefull  in this wall of text xD

peace, dont yell on me ;( lol

Modifié par Xalena, 02 avril 2010 - 11:12 .

[Urazz]

He enjoyed it physically once they got going for sure but he probably felt filthy afterwards since he doesn't like Morrigan.

[RavenholmeCP42]

Rhinna wrote...

Jayross wrote...

Heh, why don't you ask him yourself?

*Alastair hitches up his drawers as he swaggers out of Morrigans room...seeing the PC (female) he puts on a pouty face and sighs heavily*

(female)PC:  "So...how was it?......"

Alastair:  "It was...what I had to do....to save us both"  *He hugs the female PC tightly and  then gives a wink, mouths "HOT!" and gives two thumbs up surreptiously to Zevran and Oghran who are standing in the corner making lewd hand motions behind the female PC's back*

Oh lawd, I lol'd so hard.

[Miri1984]

I think the perception that Morrigan is evil and out for herself goes out the window once you get to 100 approval with her (as a female PC). To me it's pretty darn obvious that she really cares about you - her farewell speech at the gates of Denerim is one of the most fabulous - "Live well, my friend. Live gloriously." I just love it.



I think she is pretty disgusted that you're in love with Alistair but there's a great convo when she talks about what he's like in bed and basically says "Well, if he makes you happy, I'm happy for you."



If you don't get Morrigan to 100 approval I think there's great potential for the baby to be an evil threat, but I think if she's your friend she's been changed enough by the whole experience to try to raise her child differently to how she was raised.



Oh, and yes, Alistair enjoyed it, but probably had a couple of showers afterwards.

[ashez2ashes]

errant_knight wrote...




Within the game we have the choice to save Alistair by leaving him behind, but that's because we control the mouse. In terms of character, I can't see leaving him behind as a possibility.

I rather wish he would refuse to stay behind in game, especially if he's not King. That would have been much more dramatic.  It would have to be used sparringly of course, but some of the best parts in the game were where your party members just refused to do certain things/accept certain events.  It made them feel much more like real people.

[TheMufflon]

Of course he didn't enjoy it!



As we all know men derive their sexual pleasure purely from their opinion of their partner’s personality.

[Mondo_]

AntiChri5 wrote...

For Ferelden.....For the Grey WARDEEEEEENS!!!!

hahahaha

[Maria13]

Addai67 wrote...

imported_beer wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

How would agreeing to sleep with Morrigan throw doubt on his love for the Warden? 

According to my husband's theory it is because he will do it even if the PC says it will concieve the demon baby.

I have no idea if this is true because I never played that part.

Yes, he'll still do it, but the more information he has on what the ritual actually does, the more he hates it. It is more difficult to convince him if you tell him a) it will produce a child, and Morrigan is seeking an Old God.  At that last bit, he goes into complete brain fry.

When he does finally agree to it, he says, "Alright, alright, if it will spare you or Riordan, then against my better judgement I will do this thing."  (emphasis is Alistair's)  Under certain dialogue circumstances, he will say that he would rather take the blow himself than go through with the DR.  His agreement is evidence of his trust in the Warden, not evidence that he doesn't care about her!

I keep posting these screenshots on various threads, but it's because I keep coming across people questioning the fact that Alistair really doesn't want to do the DR.  He doesn't.  He really, really doesn't. 

I agree with you and thanks for posting the beautiful pics.

My take on the whole situation is that once Riordan breaks the news Alistair has made up his mind that he will be the one to take the final blow, whatever the PC or Rio may think.  Underneath all the goofiness Alistair is a bit of a fatalist, and he has assumed that it will always be and always has been his ultimate destiny to sacrifice himself for the greater good and that he has no right to personal happiness.  Probably the end result of his rather nasty upbringing. 

When the PC goes to his room after the talk with Mo'  and says something like: "I think I've found a way out of this."  his reply is: "Well, whatever it is, I can't run away."  He is not saying that the PC shouldn't run away, in fact he gives the impression that he would understand if she/he did, but rather that this is something that he personally has to do. I do think he has a martyr complex and he feels that doing the DR is a definite comedown a betrayal of the best in himself but he is willing to do it to avoid the possibility of the PC dying.

[Leukofryene]

As for the pictures above, I think he is more concerned about this bastard child who may threat Ferelden or the ritual itself, which is, as someone mentioned before, not in a grey warden style, than PC. I mean it's not about this "true deep love", it's all about survival. And surely he doesn't want you or Riordan to be dead. That's my opinion anyway. Maybe I'm prejudiced, but I can't see it another way

[ejoslin]

The expressions on Alistair's face really do not indicate his feelings towards the warden at all. He looks that way even to a hostile warden. I do agree that he doesn't want to do the ritual.

[Herr Uhl]

ejoslin wrote...

The expressions on Alistair's face really do not indicate his feelings towards the warden at all. He looks that way even to a hostile warden. I do agree that he doesn't want to do the ritual.

He would prefer to sacrifice himself. If it was the warden's life or the ritual, he'd probably do it without much protests given that he likes said warden.

Same goes for Loghain, in that he rather would sacrifice himself.