493 réponses à ce sujet

[CalJones]

Yes, as does the male Warden. They all pull the same face, too, - pretty much like the animation where one of the three takes the final blow on the archdemon.

[Chasseresse]

I always do the DR and I always hit the ESC key as soon as it starts so I can fast forward to the scenes leading up to fighting at Denerim's gate. I don't care to watch it.



I don't want either of us to die, even if my PC is with Zev for a LI. Al dying is just too sad even from a friend's point of view, and the PC dying is pretty crappy too, I view it as suicide even if it does some good for the nation. I would never make friends, family, lovers go through having to deal with that.



In rationalizing the DR, I figure if we can stop a blight, kill an arch demon and god knows what else we have fought to get to that point, if Morrigan and her god-baby are evil well then we can probably handle them too when the time comes.



From a personal and RP point of view, I don't want to know anything about what goes on. I want to block that from my memory as best I can and never speak of it again to Al or anyone else if I can help it (obviously if we have to later hunt the Witch and her kid down, I'll eventually have to deal with it). If he enjoyed it, fine, but I don't want to discuss it.



I imagine part of him did enjoy it though. The guilt probably overwhelmed what pleasure he took from it, but I think the two were at least a little attracted to each other even if he did love the PC and would not have made any move on Morrigan were this not thrust (haha) upon him.

[Nyila]

imported_beer wrote...

My husband has this interesting theory.

That Alistair does not really love the female PC. That it is more that she is nice to him, and she gives him all these action figures and he starts to care for her as the safer, less threatening love interest but it is not any deep love or anything because there is always another reason for everything he does beyond love.

Sex with Morrigan, who knows why he did it. End sacrifice- PC is not the first reason reason- his duty is. He only mentions the PC when you ask specifically "if there is something else". His duty also makes him dump a non noble female PC.

However the only person he really stands up for in the entire game is Duncan. He will even defy the PC for him.

My husband goes on to say that after seeing the Aimo comic he is more convinced that the person who cared for the FemPC more was Morrigan if she was friends with the female PC. More so than the man who is supposed to be her LI.

I wonder if that was the way the romance was concieved. That Alistair's love was specifically written not as the deep, abiding kind but a more- more...fair weather love.

I like that theory, I think it makes perfect sense!

[goofygoff]

imported_beer wrote...

I wonder if that was the way the romance was concieved. That Alistair's love was specifically written not as the deep, abiding kind but a more- more...fair weather love.

I actually feel that way about both Alistair and Morrigan.  If you play a character who goes along with them every step of the way, they're great.  But on another playthrough, as soon as they don't get their way, both of them are gone.

[LadyDamodred]

imported_beer wrote...

My husband has this interesting theory.

That Alistair does not really love the female PC. That it is more that she is nice to him, and she gives him all these action figures and he starts to care for her as the safer, less threatening love interest but it is not any deep love or anything because there is always another reason for everything he does beyond love.

Sex with Morrigan, who knows why he did it. End sacrifice- PC is not the first reason reason- his duty is. He only mentions the PC when you ask specifically "if there is something else". His duty also makes him dump a non noble female PC.

However the only person he really stands up for in the entire game is Duncan. He will even defy the PC for him.

My husband goes on to say that after seeing the Aimo comic he is more convinced that the person who cared for the FemPC more was Morrigan if she was friends with the female PC. More so than the man who is supposed to be her LI.

I wonder if that was the way the romance was concieved. That Alistair's love was specifically written not as the deep, abiding kind but a more- more...fair weather love.

I disagree, partly.  I think Alistair truly does love the PC, but life isn't a vaccuum.  There will always be other things beyond the love.  If there isn't, that's obsession, not love.  When he breaks up with the PC, it's because he understands the reality of the situation, and he's trying to spare them both pain.  As the PC, you made that choice and he has to live with the consequences of that action, no matter how much it hurts.  You convince him to stay, basically, by fighting to keep him, which quite frankly no one has ever done before.  It's somewhat open to interpretation, of course, but I do not see his love for the PC as simply something shallow to be swept away for the flimsiest of reasons.

As for Morrigan, if you're her friend, the enormity of what she's doing isn't the action but the reason.  I think the Aimo comic summed it up perfectly.  If you let her, she would have done the DR regardless, but she's doing it now to save the one person she loves.  And I think that makes all the difference.  Intention and reasons do matter, both for her and Alistair.

[Axekix]

LadyDamodred wrote...

imported_beer wrote...

My husband has this interesting theory.

That Alistair does not really love the female PC. That it is more that she is nice to him, and she gives him all these action figures and he starts to care for her as the safer, less threatening love interest but it is not any deep love or anything because there is always another reason for everything he does beyond love.

Sex with Morrigan, who knows why he did it. End sacrifice- PC is not the first reason reason- his duty is. He only mentions the PC when you ask specifically "if there is something else". His duty also makes him dump a non noble female PC.

However the only person he really stands up for in the entire game is Duncan. He will even defy the PC for him.

My husband goes on to say that after seeing the Aimo comic he is more convinced that the person who cared for the FemPC more was Morrigan if she was friends with the female PC. More so than the man who is supposed to be her LI.

I wonder if that was the way the romance was concieved. That Alistair's love was specifically written not as the deep, abiding kind but a more- more...fair weather love.

I disagree, partly.  I think Alistair truly does love the PC, but life isn't a vaccuum.  There will always be other things beyond the love.  If there isn't, that's obsession, not love.  When he breaks up with the PC, it's because he understands the reality of the situation, and he's trying to spare them both pain.  As the PC, you made that choice and he has to live with the consequences of that action, no matter how much it hurts.  You convince him to stay, basically, by fighting to keep him, which quite frankly no one has ever done before.  It's somewhat open to interpretation, of course, but I do not see his love for the PC as simply something shallow to be swept away for the flimsiest of reasons.

As for Morrigan, if you're her friend, the enormity of what she's doing isn't the action but the reason.  I think the Aimo comic summed it up perfectly.  If you let her, she would have done the DR regardless, but she's doing it now to save the one person she loves.  And I think that makes all the difference.  Intention and reasons do matter, both for her and Alistair.

A rather insightful post.  I agree completely.

[TheBlackBaron]

Rhinna wrote...
*Alastair hitches up his drawers as he swaggers out of Morrigans room...seeing the PC (female) he puts on a pouty face and sighs heavily*

(female)PC:  "So...how was it?......"

Alastair:  "It was...what I had to do....to save us both"  *He hugs the female PC tightly and  then gives a wink, mouths "HOT!" and gives two thumbs up surreptiously to Zevran and Oghran who are standing in the corner making lewd hand motions behind the female PC's back*

This is how I shall forever think of making Alistair do the Ritual.

[7th_Phoenix]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Rhinna wrote...
*Alastair hitches up his drawers as he swaggers out of Morrigans room...seeing the PC (female) he puts on a pouty face and sighs heavily*

(female)PC:  "So...how was it?......"

Alastair:  "It was...what I had to do....to save us both"  *He hugs the female PC tightly and  then gives a wink, mouths "HOT!" and gives two thumbs up surreptiously to Zevran and Oghran who are standing in the corner making lewd hand motions behind the female PC's back*

This is how I shall forever think of making Alistair do the Ritual.

@Rhinna, that made me chuckle. Awww... Alistair. <3:whistle:

[SurelyForth]

goofygoff wrote...

imported_beer wrote...

I wonder if that was the way the romance was concieved. That Alistair's love was specifically written not as the deep, abiding kind but a more- more...fair weather love.

I actually feel that way about both Alistair and Morrigan.  If you play a character who goes along with them every step of the way, they're great.  But on another playthrough, as soon as they don't get their way, both of them are gone.

Except for the fact that, in both cases, that "as soon as they don't get their way" is a pivotal moment in their character arc. 

When you spare Loghain, you are betraying Alistair. He is standing in front of you begging for you to do this one thing for him- someone who has fought by your side and you have professed to care about. He cannot abide Loghain being a Warden and he tells you that honestly. If you choose to do the one thing he opposes the most, you are not the person he thought you were. Even if he stayed in your party he would no longer love you.

It's a similar situation with Morrigan. If she cares for you, it is because she sees your strength and admires your practicality and ability to survive. If you reject the ritual, you are basically throwing away a practical solution to commit suicide. It is a foolish act of cowardice, in her eyes, and thus you are a fool and a coward and we all know how she feels about those.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 02 avril 2010 - 06:00 .

[LadyDamodred]

Axekix wrote...

A rather insightful post.  I agree completely.

Thank you.  I look at the characters the way my imagination writes them as I rp the story (and in my fanfic).  I know everyone sees them differently, but this makes sense to me.

[LadyDamodred]

SurelyForth wrote...

goofygoff wrote...

imported_beer wrote...

I wonder if that was the way the romance was concieved. That Alistair's love was specifically written not as the deep, abiding kind but a more- more...fair weather love.

I actually feel that way about both Alistair and Morrigan.  If you play a character who goes along with them every step of the way, they're great.  But on another playthrough, as soon as they don't get their way, both of them are gone.

Except for the fact that, in both cases, that "as soon as they don't get their way" is a pivotal moment in their character arc. 

When you spare Loghain, you are betraying Alistair. He is standing in front of you begging for you to do this one thing for him- someone who has fought by your side and you have professed to care about. He cannot abide Loghain being a Warden and he tells you that honestly. If you choose to do the one thing he opposes the most, you are not the person he thought you were. Even if he stayed in your party he would no longer love you.

It's a similar situation with Morrigan. If she cares for you, it is because she sees your strength and admires your practicality and ability to survice. If you reject the ritual, you are basically throwing away a practical solution to commit suicide. It is a foolish act of cowardice, in her eyes, and thus you are a fool and a coward and we all know how she feels about those.

Agreed, with one caveat about Morrigan.  Depending on how you've played your char, she knows you are likely to reject the ritual and do your duty.  I think she is honest in her statement then that she can't stay and watch you die and the reason is that it would be too painful. 

[Addai]

SurelyForth wrote...

When you spare Loghain, you are betraying Alistair. He is standing in front of you begging for you to do this one thing for him- someone who has fought by your side and you have professed to care about. He cannot abide Loghain being a Warden and he tells you that honestly. If you choose to do the one thing he opposes the most, you are not the person he thought you were. Even if he stayed in your party he would no longer love you.

Agreed 100%.  I don't know why people can't see that to Alistair, Loghain is as Rendon Howe to the HN or Vaughn to the city elf PC.  If someone burst into the room at Howe's and said "wait, I want to make this man a Grey Warden" and Alistair's reaction was "you know, that's not a bad idea," no matter how practical my HN characters are, it would be over my dead body.  And if Alistair insisted, that would feel like a personal betrayal.  Arguably, Loghain is even worse, because as you have just spent a lot of time laying out for the Landsmeet, his actions have affected far more than just one teyrnir.

As for the OP, I asked my husband and we both agree:  Physically he enjoyed it, may even have fantasized about something like that in testosterone moments, but psychologically it was not a fun experience.  If the Warden is his LI, I suppose he can take it better because a) he's not a virgin, he has a woman that loves him and who actually sanctioned the act, mitigating his unease and guilt, and c) he can always close his eyes and think of the Warden.

Modifié par Addai67, 02 avril 2010 - 06:33 .

[rak72]

Shavon wrote...

Apparently if you play as a male, though, Zevran catches [her] coming out of Alistair's tent, and makes  a suggestive remark.  I bet she was just tormenting him, however.  Those two together are just plain odd.  He's not the brightest bulb in the box, but surely he wouldn't torment himself, just for some action??

REALLY!!! Ugh

[SurelyForth]

[quote]imported_beer wrote...
The theory doesn't portray Alistair as someone who is fickle. Just that his is not the kind of love that will stand up for the PC or fight for that love. If Alistair were whimsical, he would have bounced right into that tent when PC asked him first. By the yourtube clips I have seen, he does not.

He says a lot of lovey stuff but as my grandmother said "what has he done for you." In that context being okay with conceiving a demon child, but angry with your sparing Loghain seems more telling than if he had said no to both, or yes to both.

I must clarify that I think his seeing the sparing of Loghain as a betrayal is absolutely spot on for his character and I see it as very justified. I just think that his agreeing to sleep with Morrigan puts a question mark on the "did he love the PC" as far as my husband is concerned.

I am not very enthusiastic about that theory. Mostly because it hurts to think about the motivations of fictitious characters without some more insight by the people who wrote them. I'd just be grasping at straws. [/quote]

How would agreeing to sleep with Morrigan throw doubt on his love for the Warden? If anything, that Alistair has the most to gain from the ritual. He knows that there is no guarantee that he'll be in a position  to kill the Archdemon himself and he doesn't want the woman he loves to die. It's not something he would choose to do, but he's not a total prude and he's being encouraged by his beloved, so it's not even cheating. The only OOC aspect is when he does it knowing about the child- given his feelings about being a bastard, I would expect him to be more up in arms about that.

quote]rak72 wrote...

[quote]Shavon wrote...

Apparently if you play as a male, though, Zevran catches [her] coming out of Alistair's tent, and makes  a suggestive remark.  I bet she was just tormenting him, however.  Those two together are just plain odd.  He's not the brightest bulb in the box, but surely he wouldn't torment himself, just for some action??
[/quote]

REALLY!!! Ugh

[/quote]

I've played two males and my boyfriend has played 4 and neither of us have had that happen. If Alistair and Morrigan were hooking up on the DL during the game, she wouldn't need to have PC involved in the DR at all.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 02 avril 2010 - 07:16 .

[this isnt my name]

imported_beer wrote...

I am curious...if the genders were reversed, how many male PCs would ask their DAO girlfriends to sleep with a male warlock and get impregnated by him in order to spare their lives?

I wouldnt, besides why couldnt the male PC do it ?
I havent made a female PC that got that far, but I dont intend romancing alistaair anyway, far to whiney so I wouldnt care.

[LadyDamodred]

imported_beer wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
I disagree, partly.  I think Alistair truly does love the PC, but life isn't a vaccuum.  There will always be other things beyond the love.  If there isn't, that's obsession, not love.  When he breaks up with the PC, it's because he understands the reality of the situation, and he's trying to spare them both pain.  As the PC, you made that choice and he has to live with the consequences of that action, no matter how much it hurts.  You convince him to stay, basically, by fighting to keep him, which quite frankly no one has ever done before.  It's somewhat open to interpretation, of course, but I do not see his love for the PC as simply something shallow to be swept away for the flimsiest of reasons.

The theory doesn't portray Alistair as someone who is fickle. Just that his is not the kind of love that will stand up for the PC or fight for that love. If Alistair were whimsical, he would have bounced right into that tent when PC asked him first. By the yourtube clips I have seen, he does not.

He says a lot of lovey stuff but as my grandmother said "what has he done for you." In that context being okay with conceiving a demon child, but angry with your sparing Loghain seems more telling than if he had said no to both, or yes to both.

I must clarify that I think his seeing the sparing of Loghain as a betrayal is absolutely spot on for his character and I see it as very justified. I just think that his agreeing to sleep with Morrigan puts a question mark on the "did he love the PC" as far as my husband is concerned.

I am not very enthusiastic about that theory. Mostly because it hurts to think about the motivations of fictitious characters without some more insight by the people who wrote them. I'd just be grasping at straws.

No, it's nothing to do with being fickle or whimsical.  As for sleeping with Morrigan, he says he will not do it if it was just about him, but like everything else in his life, there are other considerations.  What I see in the break up is that he is trying to spare the PC the pain of having to watch him get married and spend his life with someone else.  And it's painful for him, too.  He knows his duty, and basically cuts his heart out of his chest to do it.  *shrugs*  I see no conflict in it, or that him going through with the DR to save the woman he loves means he somehow loves her less.

[Addai]

imported_beer wrote...
 I just think that his agreeing to sleep with Morrigan puts a question mark on the "did he love the PC" as far as my husband is concerned.

Do you mean that he should have refused to do the ritual and the fact that he doesn't means his love for the PC is not very deep??

I have gone back and forth on the issue of how deep/abiding the Alistair romance is supposed to be.  Early on I began to wonder if the end-game writing showed a lack of sincerity in Alistair's comments, and that maybe he was already starting to think he had jumped into a romance because (as he even says in the tent invitation) you might die any day, and now that you didn't die he's wondering what he got himself into.

I've come back around to not seeing it that way, however.  There are many indications that Alistair would chuck everything to be with the Warden, but his conscience will not allow him.  That makes him both a better man and ultimately a better lover IMO.  After all, if your PC has fallen in love with him, then you already see this sense of scruple and duty in him and are attracted to it.  He already molds himself to a large degree to the PC's influence- should he be infinitely moldable?

[SurelyForth]

imported_beer wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

How would agreeing to sleep with Morrigan throw doubt on his love for the Warden? 

According to my husband's theory it is because he will do it even if the PC says it will concieve the demon baby.

I have no idea if this is true because I never played that part.

That line nets you a negative that can cause him to reject the ritual, even if he does love the PC. There is no one dealbreaker because Alistair is the only option for a female PC who wants them to both survive. If it was balanced towards him refusing, that would put the female PC who is in a relationship with Alistair in an unfair position, mechanics-wise.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 02 avril 2010 - 07:25 .

[this isnt my name]

imported_beer wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...
I wouldnt, besides why couldnt the male PC do it ?

Same reason female PC couldn't. ANCIENT RITUAL!!! ONLY ONE CHOSEN ONE WARLOCK HAS THE MAGIC JUICE TO DO IT!!!!

And it ain't you.

if you dont like it sacrafice Loghain, no loss. Well aside from the idea of him being remembered and honoured because he killed the archdemon...He dosent deserve that aftar what he did.
Anyway would I do it no, I would rather sacrafice someone, even if it was alistair, just because it seems more...I dont know... honourable, he dies with honour and dosent cheat. God that seems petty and badly worded but still.