252 réponses à ce sujet

[DrGunjah]

The Twilight God pretty much sums it up

[Xilizhra]

9. The Citadel is of Reaper construction.

Actually, only the mass relays are. As the Leviathans built the Catalyst, it seems very likely that they constructed the Citadel as well, or at least had their thralls do it. The control panel can thus be explained as some sort of thrall-intended control device that is highly energized by the Crucible, hence the power surging over the handles. The Synthesis mechanism I'm less sure of, but it may have been built in as one of their attempts to have synthetics leave organics alone.

Which is one possibility. Another one is that when the Crucible was adapted to make use of the Citadel, the contraption was then constructed by that race, and is not actually of Reaper make at all. Probably they failed to actually construct the Crucible itself, but the contraption remained functional, and it was the docking of the Crucible, charging the contraption, that gave the Catalyst new possibilities.

8. If the contraptions were built by the Citadel's organic inhabitants, per the Crucible's schematics, it would be known that the Citadel was a component beforehand. That is not the case.

Whichever race altered the Crucible plans to use the Citadel certainly knew about them beforehand, hence altering the Crucible in response to make it compatible with the Citadel. Since the Reapers would have no reason to build such a thing and then never use it or do anything about the Crucible until TIM told them about it (and then, they just try to destroy the Crucible after sealing the Citadel to ensure that it can't arrive), it's safe to deduce that the Reapers want nothing to do with the Crucible being used.

Also, in Destroy, the Catalyst said that the survivors would have little difficulty repairing the damage, which is the case. However, the geth couldn't be repaired in any way that would salvage their original memories, especially considering the Reaper code, which made them individuals but would also be a prime target for the Destroy beam. Hence, while the geth could be rebuilt, they'd never be the same geth, as the original identities would be destroyed, and hence "genocide" remains accurate.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 16 octobre 2012 - 12:50 .

[Davik Kang]

 

The Twilight God wrote...
Unless you disagree, in which case I'd need you to point out which points are flawed (i.e. flawed deduction), I will work from this unchallenged premise. I'm stating absolutely and unequivocally that I am right and anyone disagreeing is wrong. I'm stating my deduction constitutes fact. So if you think I'm wrong I'd like to know what I'm missing, valid alternative explanations, etc. Otherwise, anything stated contrary to these points is automatically wrong within the context of any continued discussion because until my assertion of fact is debunked, it is true in the context of this discussion. This is a debating rule. I'm not trying to come off as authoritative.

Strongly put, though I guess that's a result of the kind of debate that can happen on these forums and the internet in general.  Although I doubt you've read many of my posts, I would like to think that I do always try to make constructive and deductive points during discussions, rather than simply stating arbitrary things and dmeanding they be agreed with.  I do attempt to answer what was actually written, rather than just re-post my opinions in the hope that any opponents will just give up.
Whether or not you think my points do actually meet your points head on is another matter.  But I'll try my best.

The Twilight God wrote...
Your saying that the Crucible is incomplete in low EMS despite it being said to be "ready, accept for the Catalyst"? 
Given the plans they have, they would have to have sent it in knowing it was not 100% complete if what you propose is true. Given the fact that they don't know exactly how it works how can they afford to skip certain steps? Especially given what's at stake. There is no indication that they half-assed it; no dialog which in any way implies the Crucible is any more or less complete in low or mid EMS. 
Looking at the war assets, I say you have better quality components. But nothing you retrieve in the form of war assets add any completely new functionality or represent anything that wouldn't be aquired via a comercial-of-the-shelf equivalent

I have a few responses here.

First, when I wrote this idea, I hadn't considered the more simple interpretation that EMS contributed to a better Crucible simply because it meant the Alliance could protect the Crucible better on its journey.  This is a more straightforward explanation given what the Kid says (refferring to different levels of "damage" to the Crucible).

However, to defend the previous interpretation, I would say that they don't have a choice at what stage they can send it.  Time is running out on Earth and elsewhere.  If Hackett or the Council or whoever decides it's time to deploy, then that's it.  Any unfinished stuff will just have to be removed if that's possible.  It makes sense that they'd begin with a somewhat functional machine and then improve it, because they knew they only had a limited time to finish it.

As for war assets, maybe they could install more basic upgrades, I don;t know.  I got the impression that the Crucible was so complex that it took a feat of engineering to understand the plans and initiate its construction.  But in my point I did say that assets could extend to the protection of the Crucible project.  The more free the workers are from skirmishes and danger, the more productive they'd be.  Also the Alliance could spare more war assets to assist in building the Crucible instead of helping the war effort elsewhere.


 

The Twilight God wrote...
This can be objectively proven untrue. The Crucible is not responsible for Synthesis or Control. I'm not going to post all three deductive points here as you've said you read them. I'll just use the ones for Synthesis.

I have seen the lists, as you say, and they are very solid explanations for the contraption's form and function in each case.  Even if I were to disagree with them I won't start an in-depth discussion on it here.  For now, the only one I'd cast doubt on is #8, because if the catalyst wasn't part of the schematics, how did they know they had to connect it to the Citadel?  To me it makes more sense that it took them a while to figure that the Catalyst was related to the Citadel.

But this is a little beside the point, because in my interpretation of events, everything after and including the Magic Elevator is a product of a massive hallucination, brought on by a combination of Shepard's mental and physical exhaustion, and the last-ditch indoctrination attempt on Shepard by the Intelligence.  The way I see it, Shepard is barely conscious and the things she sees, including the contraption and the Kid, are not actually physically present in that form - they are not as they appear.  

I think the appearance of the Decision room and the Kid are a visual representation of Shepard's mind trying to understand the information she's processing.  One source is the ReaperKid / Intelligence mind and its indoctrination attempt; the other is Shepard's own mind figuring out how to operate the control panel in the Citadel.  This makes sense to me given that the decision room appears to be an amalgomation of the places she's been most recently.

However, even in my own interpretation, this does not render your points on the Contraption moot.  I think the chamber and the contraption symbolise various things.  I could speculate on them here but it would make the post way too long.  Would like to at some point though.  Anyway, the things that they symbolise, for all I know, could be a direct reference to something I haven't read or seen.  But your analysis does make an interpretation of them much easier to attempt.

I know this isn't exactly the kind of response you were looking for, but I hope it doesn't cause you to quit the discussion.  It's one of the places where our interpretations fundamentally differ, so to carry on the discussion we might need to leave it for now.  Or not.  Up to you.


 

The Twilight God wrote...
This is one of the major problems with people who insist the Geth die. This fabricated concept that one piece of technology is inherently "more synthetic" than another. Shepard's implants are 100% synthetics. A geth prime platform is 100% synthetic. . An omni-tool is 100% synthetic. A geth colossus is 100% synthetic.  An Alliance cruiser is 100% synthetics. A Geth cruiser is 100% synthetic. All synthetics must be affected identically.

I addressed this one in your own thread - maybe to keep the posts shorter we could continue it there?  If a short answer is necessary, I'd say that the differences between low and high EMS Destroy show that the beam can vary in its efficacy on the types of material it destroys.  So where to draw the line isn't really implied.  Therefore, maybe Geth die, maybe they don't.  But like I said, we could explore this more fully in the other thread, if that's ok.


 

The Twilight God wrote...
This is what I replied to here: [ about the influence of ME2 Heart and Brain on EMS ] 

Yep you're right, thanks for that, I hadn't picked up on this before.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 16 octobre 2012 - 01:04 .

[DiebytheSword]

I'm in agreement with the OP, the truth lies somewhere inbetween the literal and IT interpretations, with at least some of the ending happening inside Shepard's head and the actual endings actually happening.

[Davik Kang]

DiebytheSword wrote...
I'm in agreement with the OP, the truth lies somewhere inbetween the literal and IT interpretations, with at least some of the ending happening inside Shepard's head and the actual endings actually happening.

Support is always appreciated, cheers.  I wonder if we can come up with something that's more defined.  Only time will tell.

[Blueprotoss]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Is it just me, or does it look like there's absolutely no Mass Effect fields present in this picture? I know they're invisible. But it just gives the illusion that those buildings are in the vacuum of space.

To be fair most of the fields in ME are normally invisible until an impact occurs to make them visible.

[Humakt83]

Seival wrote...

...As I said, "IT"ers are just anti-enders.

False.

[Blueprotoss]

Humakt83 wrote...

Seival wrote...

...As I said, "IT"ers are just anti-enders.

False.

I second that.

[The Twilight God]

Davik Kang wrote...

Strongly put, though I guess that's a result of the kind of debate that can happen on these forums and the internet in general.  Although I doubt you've read many of my posts, I would like to think that I do always try to make constructive and deductive points during discussions, rather than simply stating arbitrary things and dmeanding they be agreed with.  I do attempt to answer what was actually written, rather than just re-post my opinions in the hope that any opponents will just give up.
Whether or not you think my points do actually meet your points head on is another matter.  But I'll try my best.

I did not intend to come off as if I was accusing you particulally of bad debate etiqeutte. I've been told my writing style is confrontational, but I'm not trying to offend. I was just trying to convey the importance of addressing arguments. Edit: Not so much in terms of rather you see it as literally tking place or a hallcination. Just in the terms of the nature of synthesis. Regardless of how you see the ending the nature of synthesis can still be debated.

Davik Kang wrote...

As for war assets, maybe they could install more basic upgrades, I don;t know.  I got the impression that the Crucible was so complex that it took a feat of engineering to understand the plans and initiate its construction.  But in my point I did say that assets could extend to the protection of the Crucible project.  The more free the workers are from skirmishes and danger, the more productive they'd be.  Also the Alliance could spare more war assets to assist in building the Crucible instead of helping the war effort elsewhere.

If not for the damage remarks by the Kid you could say that better parts made it perform better (i.e. produce more power). In the same way gold wiring would make a processor run faster than one with copper wire. But even then there is a huge difference between low and high EMS Crucible docking cutscene. I like the low EMS better. The Crucible just cruising in unmolested just seems too easy given the enemy you're facing. and the low EMS heart/brain differences still wouldn't be covered.

Davik Kang wrote...

I have seen the lists, as you say, and they are very solid explanations for the contraption's form and function in each case.  Even if I were to disagree with them I won't start an in-depth discussion on it here.  For now, the only one I'd cast doubt on is #8, because if the catalyst wasn't part of the schematics, how did they know they had to connect it to the Citadel?  To me it makes more sense that it took them a while to figure that the Catalyst was related to the Citadel.

If you have schematics for a device that is intended to dock with the Citadel it doesn't matter if you know it will dock with the Citadel. As long as you build it according to plan it will be made to dock with the Citadel. Now they knew HOW to connect it because they got the information from Vendetta prior to heading to Earth. I doubt they just took off and left without getting more infor from it.

Davik Kang wrote...

But this is a little beside the point, because in my interpretation of events, everything after and including the Magic Elevator is a product of a massive hallucination, brought on by a combination of Shepard's mental and physical exhaustion, and the last-ditch indoctrination attempt on Shepard by the Intelligence.  The way I see it, Shepard is barely conscious and the things she sees, including the contraption and the Kid, are not actually physically present in that form - they are not as they appear. 

 

OK, so you're not a "literalist".

How do you reconcile the state of the Crucible and its affect on what choices you have available if it's just in Shepard's head? If it is all just a hallucination, why would anythng taking place in reality affect his delusions? As an example, wouldn't grabbing live wires and being elecrecuted be presentable as Control regardless of rather or not you had high EMs or low EMS with the reaper heart? Well, I guess I'd need to know exactly what you think is going on first.

Davik Kang wrote...

I think the appearance of the Decision room and the Kid are a visual representation of Shepard's mind trying to understand the information she's processing.  One source is the ReaperKid / Intelligence mind and its indoctrination attempt; the other is Shepard's own mind figuring out how to operate the control panel in the Citadel.  This makes sense to me given that the decision room appears to be an amalgomation of the places she's been most recently.

What places correlate to what parts of the decision chamber?

Davik Kang wrote...

However, even in my own interpretation, this does not render your points on the Contraption moot.  I think the chamber and the contraption symbolise various things.  I could speculate on them here but it would make the post way too long.  Would like to at some point though.  Anyway, the things that they symbolise, for all I know, could be a direct reference to something I haven't read or seen.  But your analysis does make an interpretation of them much easier to attempt.

I'd have to see your entire theory to really comment on it one way or the other.

I'm thinking into rather or not the Reapers designed the Crucible or later incorporated it into their plans. The Kid could be some prothean guy who became the Kid after picking Control last cycle.

Davik Kang wrote...

I know this isn't exactly the kind of response you were looking for, but I hope it doesn't cause you to quit the discussion.  It's one of the places where our interpretations fundamentally differ, so to carry on the discussion we might need to leave it for now.  Or not.  Up to you.

It's all good. You're comment on #8 was fine. 

[The Twilight God]

Xilizhra wrote...

9. The Citadel is of Reaper construction.

Actually, only the mass relays are. As the Leviathans built the Catalyst, it seems very likely that they constructed the Citadel as well, or at least had their thralls do it. The control panel can thus be explained as some sort of thrall-intended control device that is highly energized by the Crucible, hence the power surging over the handles. The Synthesis mechanism I'm less sure of, but it may have been built in as one of their attempts to have synthetics leave organics alone.

Which is one possibility. Another one is that when the Crucible was adapted to make use of the Citadel, the contraption was then constructed by that race, and is not actually of Reaper make at all. Probably they failed to actually construct the Crucible itself, but the contraption remained functional, and it was the docking of the Crucible, charging the contraption, that gave the Catalyst new possibilities.

1. The Citadel is a mass relay. We've been told that since ME1. We saw it in relay mode at the end of ME3.
2. We don't know the nature of the Kid. We don;t even know if it is the Intelligence the Leviathans mentioned. It could be Harbinger for all we know.
3. The Control grips rapidly convert organics to husks (see arca monolith) and then transfers their minds into a synthetic medium. Why would the Leviathans want to turn their organic thralls into synthetics who can't be enthralled? Furthermore, the control junction is dependent on the presense of the Crucible. It cannot work without it. It is made to work with it. The low EMS/reaper heart scenario shows this.
4. Not sure what you are trying to get at with synthesis, but if the synthesis array was made by organics shouldn't the details to make them be included in the Crucible plans? Say the reapers see the addtion.. wouldn't they remove it? Wouldn;t destroy be activated by a button versus blowing the contraptions power supply apart. Destroy is initiated by removing this contraption from the equation. Synthesis is a product of the Citadel, not the Crucible. it uses the Crucible for power.

Power chugging Synthesis (fat beam to the Citadel and more )



Self-propelled Destory (no beam at all)

Xilizhra wrote...

8. If the contraptions were built by the Citadel's organic inhabitants, per the Crucible's schematics, it would be known that the Citadel was a component beforehand. That is not the case.

Whichever race altered the Crucible plans to use the Citadel certainly knew about them beforehand, hence altering the Crucible in response to make it compatible with the Citadel.

No. The contraption is a contingency. It is anti-Crucible is nature. It prevents the Crucible from firing authomatically. Hence, in Destroy you blow up its power conduit. You remove power from this device, effectively removing it from the equation. This cuts the beam and ends whatever was supprssing the Crucible from firing. without any reaper device to stop it the Crucible fires automatically. It's only function is destroy. Control and Synthesis, which both require the beam are based in the Citadel. The Crucible is used to power them. Basically, using our own weapon against us.

The Twilight God... 
 
1. The Crucible docks, but is not doing anything noticeable.
2. The power conduit is eliminated violently.
3. The Crucible arms itself and fires.
4. It is thus deduced that something was preventing the Crucible from firing while the power conduit remained intact and functional.
5. The destruction of the power conduit terminated whatever condition existed that prevented the Crucible from arming.
6. The power conduit was either itself, or was powering, something that prevented the Crucible from firing. This would be the "Crucible Suppression Device" I mentioned earlier.
7. In the absence of this suppressing condition the Crucible initiates the destruction of the Reapers without any direct input from Shepard or any action that could be construed as normal usage of the contraption beneath it.
8. Conclusion #1: The Crucible's default function is to destroy the Reapers.
9. It has been confirmed in the very opening of this segment that the contraption at eye level is NOT a part of the Crucible.
10. Upon the destruction of the power conduit the beam running down the center of the Citadel chasm deactivates.
11. It can therefore be deduced that the power conduit was either itself, or was powering, whatever it is that was generating the beam running down the Citadel chasm.
12. The Crucible arms itself, sends a pulse into the Citadel and fires despite the absence of this beam.
13. In both Control and Synthesis the beam remains active as the Crucible's tip ignites.
14. Conclusion #2: The beam is not a function of the Crucible itself.

Xilizhra wrote...

Since the Reapers would have no reason to build such a thing and then never use it or do anything about the Crucible until TIM told them about it (and then, they just try to destroy the Crucible after sealing the Citadel to ensure that it can't arrive), it's safe to deduce that the Reapers want nothing to do with the Crucible being used.

They have EVERY reason to build a device that prevents the Crucible from destroying them. And if anyone actually makes it up alive to investigate they have addtional options (which serve their purpose) to sway them away from destroy. It's a contingency. They don't want to be in a position to need it, but its' there just in case.  

According to the Kid itself, the Reapers knew about the Crucible design. It claims that it thought the plans were destroyed cycles ago, but it already knew about it (at least in design and concept). The Reapers have had eyes on it before. This is evidenced by the fact that they were able to make the contraption in the first place.

Xilizhra wrote...

Also, in Destroy, the Catalyst said that the survivors would have little difficulty repairing the damage, which is the case. However, the geth couldn't be repaired in any way that would salvage their original memories, especially considering the Reaper code, which made them individuals but would also be a prime target for the Destroy beam. Hence, while the geth could be rebuilt, they'd never be the same geth, as the original identities would be destroyed, and hence "genocide" remains accurate.

What damage? If Geth memory, which can exist on any medium, is scrapped that  means ALL memory is scrapped. All software, all stored knowledge, everything stored in any medium is toast. All the navigational charts, FTL calculating software, VIs, computer systems, medical data... the collective cultural data of every species is gone other than what is in the remianing books and what the survivors can recall off the top of their head. The fact that the ships can still navigate post destroy shows that this did not happen. Trust me. I don't go arguing positions until I've thoroughly tried to debunk it myself. You cannot have a situation in which only the Geth perish, while everyone else is fine. It's ALL OR NOTHING. The reason only the husks, EDI and Reapers die is because they are made from synthesized materials. There is no other distinctive characteristic to allow the Crucible to pinpoint them and stare everyone else in high EMS Destroy. It further explains why the cuttlefish dreadnaught do no disintegrate like the husk. The ship is not synthesized. The "terminator" inside is. The "terminator" on the inside is what got disintegrated.

[Xilizhra]

1. The Citadel is a mass relay. We've been told that since ME1. We saw it in relay mode at the end of ME3.

It has one attached to it. Is that the entire Citadel?

4. Not sure what you are trying to get at with synthesis, but if the synthesis array was made by organics shouldn't the details to make them be included in the Crucible plans? Say the reapers see the addtion.. wouldn't they remove it? Wouldn;t destroy be activated by a button versus blowing the contraptions power supply apart. Destroy is initiated by removing this contraption from the equation. Synthesis is a product of the Citadel, not the Crucible. it uses the Crucible for power.

The Reapers had known about the Crucible at one point, but they thought the concept had been eradicated. I suspect that only some of the Crucible's plans were recovered by other races, and the details about the Citadel contraption had been lost. And the Reapers are highly arrogant and, given all the Prothean warning beacons they never got to, apt to overlook small details. Certainly they weren't paying enough attention to the Citadel to ensure the keepers were listening to them and not the Citadel itself. It's very possible that the Reapers destroyed the Crucible plans without actually reading them. We know that the Crucible plans aren't complete anyway, given that we have no idea what it does before activating it.
As for the Destroy function itself, it may not have been activated at that panel at all, to remove the risk of being blown to hell while standing at ground zero. Hence, destroying the failsafe attachment would be the only way for Shepard to activate it at that point; not only that, Synthesis involves a similar improvised move, i.e. jumping into the beam, indicating that that function was also supposed to be remotely activated. The Control panel is probably attached to that site because uploading oneself into the Citadel would be much harder or impossible to do wirelessly.

No. The contraption is a contingency. It is anti-Crucible is nature. It prevents the Crucible from firing authomatically. Hence, in Destroy you blow up its power conduit. You remove power from this device, effectively removing it from the equation. This cuts the beam and ends whatever was supprssing the Crucible from firing. without any reaper device to stop it the Crucible fires automatically. It's only function is destroy. Control and Synthesis, which both require the beam are based in the Citadel. The Crucible is used to power them. Basically, using our own weapon against us.

The Crucible wouldn't necessarily fire anyway without activation in some form. You're making unproven assertions. And neither function is desirable for the harvests' continuation anyway.

They have EVERY reason to build a device that prevents the Crucible from destroying them. And if anyone actually makes it up alive to investigate they have addtional options (which serve their purpose) to sway them away from destroy. It's a contingency. They don't want to be in a position to need it, but its' there just in case.

Then why not just destroy the Crucible? Or destroy that entire docking area so that the Crucible couldn't attach or interface with the Citadel's power source? And even if they were going to let that stand for whatever reason, why not have the contraption just blow the Crucible up if they actually made it? This whole scheme makes no sense if the Reapers did it.

What damage? If Geth memory, which can exist on any medium, is scrapped that means ALL memory is scrapped. All software, all stored knowledge, everything stored in any medium is toast. All the navigational charts, FTL calculating software, VIs, computer systems, medical data... the collective cultural data of every species is gone other than what is in the remianing books and what the survivors can recall off the top of their head. The fact that the ships can still navigate post destroy shows that this did not happen. Trust me. I don't go arguing positions until I've thoroughly tried to debunk it myself. You cannot have a situation in which only the Geth perish, while everyone else is fine. It's ALL OR NOTHING. The reason only the husks, EDI and Reapers die is because they are made from synthesized materials. There is no other distinctive characteristic to allow the Crucible to pinpoint them and stare everyone else in high EMS Destroy. It further explains why the cuttlefish dreadnaught do no disintegrate like the husk. The ship is not synthesized. The "terminator" inside is. The "terminator" on the inside is what got disintegrated.

If the geth are alive at this point, it's because of the Reaper code, which is just as much Reaper material as their bodies. This being destroyed would at the very least obliterate their individuality, and in all likelihood have side effects that wiped out the rest of their memory.

[The Twilight God]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

It has one attached to it. Is that the entire Citadel?[/quote]

Apparently.  Otherwise the whole thing shouldn't have overloaded like the rest of the relays after they fire the beams.

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

The Reapers had known about the Crucible at one point, but they thought the concept had been eradicated.[/quote]
 
Or they lied.
 
It could have been their intent all along to lure everyone in and crush major resistance in one big battle. The Protheans were building it but Javik thinks they were too late. So is there a half built Crucible out there somewhere? What happened to all the protheans working on it. There were indoctrinated people in his time who knew about the Crucible. And the Reapers didn't know they were building one? I haven't investigated this enough to ague it, but just something to think about.

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

I suspect that only some of the Crucible's plans were recovered by other races, and the details about the Citadel contraption had been lost. [/quote]

So the part that the Crucible doesn't even need, which actually works AGAINST it, preventing it from firing was... lost. And the Reapers allowed this contraption that is hard wired into the Citadel to remain? Umm, you might want to think about what you're saying.

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

And the Reapers are highly arrogant and, given all the Prothean warning beacons they never got to, apt to overlook small details. Certainly they weren't paying enough attention to the Citadel to ensure the keepers were listening to them and not the Citadel itself. It's very possible that the Reapers destroyed the Crucible plans without actually reading them. We know that the Crucible plans aren't complete anyway, given that we have no idea what it does before activating it.[/quote]

The Crucible plans were complete. they built the Crucible just fine. This is said by Hackett before the Cerberus HQ mission. No lost mystery files or incomplete data. Just the identity of the Catalyst was unknown (per the Protheans' plan) which turned out to be the Citadel.

They understood what the Crucible does. They didn't understand HOW it did it. And they didn't understand because the science was so far advanced. It was like people in the bronze age building a nuclear submarine based on nothing but instructions without having first grasped the science behind it. They know it 's a warship, doesn't need conventional fuel, tons of steel yet floats on water and that it packs a wallop but the HOW is a mystery.

As far as the "Reapers are Stupid" theory is concerned, feel free to conjecture as you please. I don't believe any of it but your certain welcome to.

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

As for the Destroy function itself, it may not have been activated at that panel at all, to remove the risk of being blown to hell while standing at ground zero.[/quote]

It sounded to me like the Crucible was meant to fire automatically upon docking. Hackett seems to be under the impression that something is wrong when it doesn;t fire automatically. 

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

Hence, destroying the failsafe attachment would be the only way for Shepard to activate it at that point; not only that, Synthesis involves a similar improvised move, i.e. jumping into the beam, indicating that that function was also supposed to be remotely activated. The Control panel is probably attached to that site because uploading oneself into the Citadel would be much harder or impossible to do wirelessly.[/quote]

Synthesis is no more improvised than a sensor that turns on a light when you get close to it. It doesn't require you actually break anything. It works within the framework of acompletely functional contraption. Synthesis and Control must be manually initiated. They are not native functions of the Crucible.

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

The Crucible wouldn't necessarily fire anyway without activation in some form. You're making unproven assertions. And neither function is desirable for the harvests' continuation anyway.[/quote]

No, I've already proved it. Debunk my deductive analysis if you disagree. Until you can do that you agree with my analysis by default. You cannot simply ignore an opponent's evidence and carry on like you never saw them. I'm saying the following represents fact. You have to show that it isn't fact.

In the quote below I have proven that the Crucible's only native function is Destroy and that under normal conditions it initiates this capability automatically upon docking with the Citadel.

[quote]The Twilight God wrote...

1. The Crucible docks, but is not doing anything noticeable.
2. The power conduit is eliminated violently.
3. The Crucible arms itself and fires.
4. It is thus deduced that something was preventing the Crucible from firing while the power conduit remained intact and functional.
5. The destruction of the power conduit terminated whatever condition existed that prevented the Crucible from arming.
6. The power conduit was either itself, or was powering, something that prevented the Crucible from firing. This would be the "Crucible Suppression Device" I mentioned earlier.
7. In the absence of this suppressing condition the Crucible initiates the destruction of the Reapers without any direct input from Shepard or any action that could be construed as normal usage of the contraption beneath it.
8. Conclusion #1: The Crucible's default function is to destroy reaper technology.
9. It has been confirmed in the very opening of this segment that the contraption at eye level is NOT a part of the Crucible.
10. Upon the destruction of the power conduit the beam running down the center of the Citadel chasm deactivates.
11. It can therefore be deduced that the power conduit was either itself, or was powering, whatever it is that was generating the beam running down the Citadel chasm.
12. The Crucible arms itself, sends a pulse into the Citadel and fires despite the absence of this beam.
13. In both Control and Synthesis the beam remains active as the Crucible's tip ignites.
14. Conclusion #2: The beam is not a function of the Crucible itself. [/quote]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

Then why not just destroy the Crucible? Or destroy that entire docking area so that the Crucible couldn't attach or interface with the Citadel's power source? [/quote]

Just Destroy it? Like it's that easy. They tried. In high EMS your forces are strong enough to hold them off. With lower EMS some destroyers get through and damage it before being destroyed or fought off. So they tried to destroy, but couldn't. However, if you are indecisive in the decision chamber the Reapers do eventually get to the Crucible and and destroy it.

I have a device that connects to your car's exhaust. Are you gong o remove the exhaust to prevent it from connecting? No. The exhaust is crucial to the proper function of a car. Maybe you put some kind of screen over it, but you can't outright remove it. You can't necessarily remove parts arbitrarily from complex machinery.

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

And even if they were going to let that stand for whatever reason, why not have the contraption just blow the Crucible up if they actually made it? This whole scheme makes no sense if the Reapers did it.[/quote]

Why didn't the geth collosus follow shepard  through the Conduit in ME1? Why did they go ahead of him and be ready to blow him up as soon as he came through? If you do Virmire last, why was Saren still hanging out on Virmire when he had everything he needed to go to Illos? Why didn't Soveriegn just blast Eden prime with a shot from his main gun instead of setting explosives? Why didn;t the thorian hatch all it's creepers and asari clones at once and swarm Shepard? Why didn't it have the colonist sabotage the console so that shepard couldn;t open it to go into the "basement"? Why didn't the Collectors just diable the relays on the far end and only have it turn on when they were coming through? Why didn;t they send seeker swarms into the human reaper chamber? They showed up easy enough after the fight was over? Why didn't the Collectors put mines around the Omega-4 relay on the receiving end that attached that blew up any non-Collector ship. If the Occulus was a mine the Normandy would have been screwed. Why didn't the Collector remove power to the platforms so that Shep couldn't get to the Human Reaper? Why not make it where all relays can be switched to  Alpha relay mode or simply built a new one or covert another one into a new alpha relay?
 
Why depend on keepers for something so important as initiating their invasion? Why didn't the Sovereign use a quantum entanglment remote to activate the Citadel relay? So I guess it isn't a trap since it makes no sense if the Reapers were behind it? I could write an endless amount of books covered an endless amoutn of fictional tales detailing how the bad guys could utterly shut down the protagonist. You're basically asking me why is the protagonist allowed to win. Once you go down that road there would never be a way for any protagonsit in any story to ever prevail.  

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

If the geth are alive at this point, it's because of the Reaper code, which is just as much Reaper material as their bodies. This being destroyed would at the very least obliterate their individuality, and in all likelihood have side effects that wiped out the rest of their memory.[/quote]

Geth platforms are not reaper materials. The Geth platforms are NOT synthesized. They are completely synthetic just like a LOKI mech, an omni-tool or an alliance cruiser. 

The Geth have a code that a lone reaper destroyer made. It doesn't make it any more "reaper code" in the sense that it makes them Reapers, than a 100% wooden log cabin built by a reaper architect becomes an evil Reaper Cabin. That would be absurd. The fact that they join you and fight beside you and don't betray you tells you that much. Not that it would matter anyway. Programs are ones and zero stored on a medium. They are NOT material. The Geth can be in anything because they have no hardware. They are software. You cannot target software.

"Regardless, a string of code is not something that a blast of energy can defect as it will vary based on the affiliated hardware/storage medium. A program is representation of ones and zeros (or twos, threes. fours, etc. in the future) within a medium. No standard configuration, no standard hardware and no standard matter. There is no way to isolate such a general concept as it has no definitive qualities even on an atomic level. It would have to attack either all technology or a specific hardware configuration. Otherwise, the energy blast itself would require the inteligence, the speed of discernment and conscious awareness to be able to point out and disciminate in real-time on a case by case basis. That would be reaching and downright ridiculous."

Useless you're saying the orange energy wave is alive and a god, there is no way it can target the Geth. And unless you're claiming it messes up ALL technology it will not harm their platforms any more than it would harm Hackett's flagship, Kasumi's graybox or the quarian's cybernetics. 

[Xilizhra]

[quote]It could have been their intent all along to lure everyone in and crush major resistance in one big battle. The Protheans were building it but Javik thinks they were too late. So is there a half built Crucible out there somewhere? What happened to all the protheans working on it. There were indoctrinated people in his time who knew about the Crucible. And the Reapers didn't know they were building one? I haven't investigated this enough to ague it, but just something to think about.
[/quote]
The Reapers do that at the beginning of their harvests, not at the end; that's the point of the Citadel relay in the first place. After that, I doubt they'd want to bring everyone together; they do better at dividing and conquering.

[quote]So the part that the Crucible doesn't even need, which actually works AGAINST it, preventing it from firing was... lost. And the Reapers allowed this contraption that is hard wired into the Citadel to remain? Umm, you might want to think about what you're saying.[/quote]
It doesn't work against it. Are you saying that you wouldn't put some kind of safety switch on your weapon of mass destruction to prevent it from firing the instant it docked? And I doubt it can be on the Crucible, as the Crucible needs to release all of its energy into the Citadel to use the Citadel's relay network control to fire through every single relay.

[quote]The Crucible plans were complete. they built the Crucible just fine. This is said by Hackett before the Cerberus HQ mission. No lost mystery files or incomplete data. Just the identity of the Catalyst was unknown (per the Protheans' plan) which turned out to be the Citadel.[/quote]
The plans evidently didn't include instructions on how to fire the thing, just to activate it with the Citadel. They didn't know about the Citadel interface.

[quote]I have a device that connects to your car's exhaust. Are you gong o remove the exhaust to prevent it from connecting? No. The exhaust is crucial to the proper function of a car. Maybe you put some kind of screen over it, but you can't outright remove it. You can't necessarily remove parts arbitrarily from complex machinery. [/quote]
Why not? At least, why not in the timeframe of many thousands of years that the Reapers have? As soon as they kill everyone on the Citadel, they're completely free to rework that part of the Citadel to prevent the Crucible from docking at all, and hence removing the possibility of all of them being destroyed instantly... especially since it was either them or the Leviathans who built the thing, and Harbinger at the very least would still retain all necessary information about how it works. It makes no sense at all for the Reapers to leave themselves so genuinely open; the only way it would is if the Destroy function didn't actually work.

[quote]Why didn't the geth collosus follow shepard through the Conduit in ME1?[/quote]
The Conduit was closing, that's why there was a time limit.

[quote]Why did they go ahead of him and be ready to blow him up as soon as he came through?[/quote]
The geth decided to have all of their heavy units guard the Conduit itself to blow Shepard up as soon as she entered its own room, which I personally think is a somewhat more sensible strategy.

[quote] If you do Virmire last, why was Saren still hanging out on Virmire when he had everything he needed to go to Illos?[/quote]
He doesn't have the krogan army that he actually wants to use to attack the Citadel, to be on the safe side; additionally, he probably wanted more indoctrination information. As soon as Virmire is lost, he decides to just go ahead with what he has.

[quote]Why didn't Soveriegn just blast Eden prime with a shot from his main gun instead of setting explosives?[/quote]
Sovereign was already leaving the planet, and I suspect it didn't want to hang around in case Alliance forces might get a decent look at it. No one took the unique design of Saren's ship into account at the beginning of the game, so I suspect it leaving the field early on had some success, especially since Saren thought the explosive plan would work.

[quote]Why didn;t the thorian hatch all it's creepers and asari clones at once and swarm Shepard?[/quote]
The clones probably need time to incubate. As for the creepers, I suspect that the Thorian's reaction time isn't all that fast, it being a huge plant thing.

[quote]Why didn't it have the colonist sabotage the console so that shepard couldn;t open it to go into the "basement"?[/quote]
It used the colonists to attack the Normandy first, and when that failed, sent them all after Shepard personally.

[quote]Why didn't the Collectors just diable the relays on the far end and only have it turn on when they were coming through?[/quote]
For the same reason the Reapers didn't do so to systems they conquered in ME3: the relays can only be shut down from the Citadel.

[quote]Why didn;t they send seeker swarms into the human reaper chamber? They showed up easy enough after the fight was over?[/quote]
The seeker swarm storage chamber door was sealed, and the Collector siege in the final battle seemed to be coming through a different door. With most of the Collectors coming through that end, they probably didn't get the seeker swarm door open until too late.

[quote]Why didn't the Collectors put mines around the Omega-4 relay on the receiving end that attached that blew up any non-Collector ship. If the Occulus was a mine the Normandy would have been screwed.[/quote]
That's the function of the Omega-4 relay itself, sending destructive energy surges through any non-Reaper ships that pass through it. The IFF is just the means to avoid that.

[quote]Why didn't the Collector remove power to the platforms so that Shep couldn't get to the Human Reaper?[/quote]
I would guess because the power has to be disabled manually, and no Collector was able to remain on the platform alive.

[quote]Why not make it where all relays can be switched to Alpha relay mode or simply built a new one or covert another one into a new alpha relay?[/quote]
We don't quite know how the relays work, so I'm not sure of an answer for this, but I would imagine the answer had something to do with time. With every new relay built, its coordinates would have to be specially tuned to the Alpha Relay; to do that for every single relay, depending on how long it takes to build these things, could have taken far too long for the Reapers' purposes.

[quote]Why depend on keepers for something so important as initiating their invasion? Why didn't the Sovereign use a quantum entanglment remote to activate the Citadel relay?[/quote]
I think that's how the keepers were activated. We've only ever seen QECs used for communication, never to actually activate something, and I don't think they can even be used for that purpose.

[quote]I could write an endless amount of books covered an endless amoutn of fictional tales detailing how the bad guys could utterly shut down the protagonist. You're basically asking me why is the protagonist allowed to win. Once you go down that road there would never be a way for any protagonsit in any story to ever prevail. [/quote]
None of those are relevant to Mass Effect. I've given reasons for all of your examples. I charge you to give one for why the Reapers would possibly allow a valid means of destroying them to continue to exist. And it's not "because they never expected anyone to show up to that point," because the rest of the contraption is reliant on someone actually being there; there'd be no point for the Reapers building it at all unless they were anticipating someone to show up there.

[quote]Useless you're saying the orange energy wave is alive and a god, there is no way it can target the Geth. And unless you're claiming it messes up ALL technology it will not harm their platforms any more than it would harm Hackett's flagship, Kasumi's graybox or the quarian's cybernetics. [/quote]
The Crucible isn't just an indiscriminate energy blast; it's clearly being directed even after the initial firing, through the various relays. "Energy blast" is probably the wrong word in any case; I'm not entirely sure what it is, but the Crucible is able to direct it to different locations even in mid-fire, and I don't see it as less plausible that it could attack specific software configurations to ensure that all traces of the Reapers' presence would be gone. And it wouldn't have to just attack Reaper code itself; it could be tuned to just attack and destroy all signs of artificial intelligence.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

The Twilight God wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It has one attached to it. Is that the entire Citadel?

Apparently.  Otherwise the whole thing shouldn't have overloaded like the rest of the relays after they fire the beams.

The relays overload in control, but the Citadel remains intact.

[Davik Kang]

The Twilight God wrote...
But even then there is a huge difference between low and high EMS Crucible docking cutscene.

Hadn't seen these.  Thanks.  Case closed.

The Twilight God wrote...

If you have schematics for a device that is intended to dock with the Citadel it doesn't matter if you know it will dock with the Citadel. As long as you build it according to plan it will be made to dock with the Citadel. Now they knew HOW to connect it because they got the information from Vendetta prior to heading to Earth. I doubt they just took off and left without getting more infor from it.

Ok.  I think I misunderstood your point before.  This needs some thinking about but again could probably be a discussion in itself.  I'll think about it and address again sometime.

The Twilight God wrote...
OK, so you're not a "literalist".

How do you reconcile the state of the Crucible and its affect on what choices you have available if it's just in Shepard's head? If it is all just a hallucination, why would anythng taking place in reality affect his delusions? As an example, wouldn't grabbing live wires and being elecrecuted be presentable as Control regardless of rather or not you had high EMs or low EMS with the reaper heart? Well, I guess I'd need to know exactly what you think is going on first.

I don't know exactly what's going on.  But what I think (atm) is that things are happening, back on the Citadel control room.  Shepard wakes up, but is hallucinating so vividly that all the information (light sound touch etc.) becomes confused.  What she makes of it in her head is what we see and hear in the Decision Chamber, as it's sometimes called.  

Therefore, she is doing something, and what she does has the effect of bringing about the end of the war.  I imagine that Destroy is her using the control panel in a way that causes the desired effect of killing the Reapers.  Control and Synthesis are harder to determine, because of the indoctrination suggestions.  My opinions keep altering slightly as I read more stuff.  In short, in Control I think she joins the Reapers - possibly vaporized, or turned into an AI, or both or neither or something.  In Synthesis I think she allows the Kid to achieve Synthesis by her own volition.  For one reason or another it is not something the Kid can do himself.  Could even be that she just gets Reaperized.  Implications could be the the current cycle become new Collectors.  Speculation is rife, again something we could go into for ages.

But the point was that the choices, if not real, symbolise something in the real world.  That could be as simple as releasing a red switch or damaging the control panel in the case of Destroy.  Control could be actually gripping wires.  Synthesis could be many things but if I go into them again this gets too long.  Important thing is - symblizing real life actions.  Not a dream, but nearly a dream.  A hallucination with consequences.

The Twilight God wrote...
What places correlate to what parts of the decision chamber?

Examples include the view window, which mirrors that on the Citadel after opening it up; the beam which looks like the Earth beam; things the IT guys have noticed like the Mako-like structure... I want to go over the endings again to get a better idea.

The Twilight God wrote...
I'd have to see your entire theory to really comment on it one way or the other.

I'm thinking into rather or not the Reapers designed the Crucible or later incorporated it into their plans. The Kid could be some prothean guy who became the Kid after picking Control last cycle.

This is a great idea!  We could speculate about it for ages.  Prothean, someone else... implications are that anyone who tries this just becomes a new intelligence.  Or adds themself to the Intelligence for a smarter, more knowledgeable  Intelligence.


About my entire theory, well, there are posts about it spread across these forums and elsewhere too.  I was hoping to collect it all up via discussion in this thread.  Maybe eventually I'll be able to build something more definite, unless of course I am presuaded that I'm just flat out wrong.  Anyway I'll have a go at adding some more ideas later.  This thread has a few, but far from all of them.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 18 octobre 2012 - 10:56 .

[The Twilight God]

Lizardviking wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It has one attached to it. Is that the entire Citadel?

Apparently. Otherwise the whole thing shouldn't have overloaded like the rest of the relays after they fire the beams.

The relays overload in control, but the Citadel remains intact.

The Citadel relay does not fire off in Control. Shepard or the Kid shuts it down. The initiatial blast wave is what triggers the other relays. In Destroy and Synthesis the Citadel relay fires an energy transfer beam, which then causes the Charon relay to fire a beam to Arcturus relay and on and on. As I demonstrated in the quote in my first post (link), Control is not heavily power dependent like Destroy or Synthesis. It didn't require massive amounts of energy be pushed from the Crucible into the relay network. 

I'll answer other peoples' replies tommorrow. I haven't been on this forum all day and just popped in to check things out. This one was short and I could respond quickly. Don;t have the time to go into long posts.

[Davik Kang]

Ok, too many ideas yesterday.  Must focus on indivdual things.

Some general updates:


Citadel-Crucible gestalt device.

The Crucible is, at its most basic, a high-energy transfer device (basically a giant laser gun) capable of producing massive amounts of energy.  Much of the high tech design of the Crucible is involved in developing targeting systems that allow it to distinguish between different targets.  In other words, identify friends or foes.  So a fully developed Crucible is a WMD with hyper-advanced IFF technology.

I'm pretty sure the Citadel is the source of the Synthesis technology.  By bringing a near-perfect Crucible to the Citadel, it allows the Citadel to produce a different kind of energy, that can be spread with the required levels of magnitude and accuracy only with the Crucible IFF.

In this way, the Catalyst and the Citadel complement each other.  They are the pinnacle, thus far, of Reaper tech and organic civilisation tech.  The Citadel provides the necessary range for the Crucible by linking it to the Mass Relays, and also the mass effect (the in-game meaning of mass effect) technology of those relays to boost the Crucible's energy potential.  Similarly, the Crucible provides the Citadel with the initial energy burst and targeting technology necessary to implement Synthesis across the galaxy.

It's still Space Magic.  But this I think at least gets closer to what we are being shown in the end.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 06 novembre 2012 - 05:03 .

[Davik Kang]

Hallucinations

There is very strong evidence to suggest that certain things are Hallucinations from the post-Reaper blast beam run.  Shep's armour is one thing, and the red and blue bodies at the side is another.  This would suggest that even if the Citadel scenes are really happening, there would likely be prominent hallucinagenic themes there too.

The obvious bit would be the appearance of the bodies on the Citadel.  Now it could be that Shepard is just seeing death around her, and it takes on the form of Kaidan and Ash to reflect her guilt for failing to save everyone.  At the moment, this is as far as I'll go.  The rest seems real.

But it could be that TIM and Anderson are hallucinations too.  The thing about the TIM and DA scene is that it really works very well whether they are hallucinations or not.  If it's real, we see satisfying conclusions to the sub-stories of both DA and TIM, including of course their respective dying speeches.  But if they're hallucinations, we see a really cool representation of Shepard's mental struggle as she prepares for the final decision.  

At first her TIM mind (which could be bad conscience, or desire for power or humanity's power, or fear and awe of Reapers, or lingering doubts on the mission etc.) is dominating, and Shepard appears weak.  Her DA mind (which could represent good conscience, or resolve to save lives, or hope, or duty to finish the mission etc.) is frozen and unable to fight back.  She even shoots DA (which may represent shooting herself, or harming her positive conscience, trying to silence the resolve to do what's right).  We later see her bleeding from the same spot (torso).  The final words of TIM could represent her love for humanity.  DA's final words could be Shepard finally truly believing in herself - finally able to just sit down and say she did it, and not have to suffer from the extreme stress of trying to save the galaxy any more.

I like both ideas and although I am still convinced of the former (the scene actually happens), I wouldn't dream of discounting the latter.  Both work nicely for different reasons.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 06 novembre 2012 - 05:04 .

[Davik Kang]

The Twilight God wrote...
How do you reconcile the state of the Crucible and its affect on what choices you have available if it's just in Shepard's head? If it is all just a hallucination, why would anythng taking place in reality affect his delusions? As an example, wouldn't grabbing live wires and being elecrecuted be presentable as Control regardless of rather or not you had high EMs or low EMS with the reaper heart? Well, I guess I'd need to know exactly what you think is going on first.

Ok so I misunderstood this one before. Clear head now. I get it. It's a great point. The silly thing is that I've asked the ITers similar questions about Low EMS Destroy, but never thought of the Low EMS Control implications.

So - why does lower EMS affect the options available to you? Well, I think the consequences are still there, even though it's a hallucination. This makes sense for Synthesis and Destroy as per the descriptions above. But Control?

I have to accept then that Control is not merely submitting to the harvest and becoming a Reaper or a Reaper brain. It has to involve the Crucible somehow.

Let me re-watch the endings and I'll try to decide how this fits.

Btw I do have a related point which also goes to the argument about Geth we're having in the other thread, but before I make it I need to know - have you played KOTOR and KOTOR II before? Because the point could be a serious spoiler for them. Might not be though. But let me know if this is a problem.

[Rixatrix]

The Twilight God wrote...
Otherwise, anything stated contrary to these points is automatically wrong within the context of any continued discussion because until my assertion of fact is debunked, it is true in the context of this discussion. 

I don't mean to be rude, but if you want to discuss argumentation, that assertion is incorrect.  I realize that you are working based on debate rules, but debate doesn't have one truth, as you assert.  Propositions in a debate always have a positive and a negative side, and the "winner" in a debate doesn't win because of proof but persuasion.   

In argumentation asserting one exclusive truth, legal reasoning is applicable.  You must prove your version of the facts (with evidence).  Telling others that your facts are right unless they are "proven wrong" is shifting the burden incorrectly.  I don't know how familiar you are with the law (I practice American), but in criminal cases, you prove your case beyond a reasonable doubt, and in civil cases, you prove your case based on a preponderance of the evidence.  Forcing a defendant to "prove you wrong" is a distorted view of argumentation.

This discussion is based on a work of fiction.  Interpretation of fiction usually involves constructing a thesis and finding support within the work to justify it.  Unlike reality, in which the facts can only lead to one truth, fiction doesn't adhere to the laws of reality, and theses asserting "one truth" in a dense work of a fiction offering such dissimilar narratives based on your characterization of the protagonist like the Mass Effect trilogy are difficult to prove by either standard you use -- beyond a reasonable doubt or based upon a preponderance of the evidence. 

That said, I do like your interpretations. 

Davik Kang wrote...
About my entire theory, well, there are posts about it spread across these forums and elsewhere too.  I was hoping to collect it all up via discussion in this thread.  Maybe eventually I'll be able to build something more definite, unless of course I am presuaded that I'm just flat out wrong.  Anyway I'll have a go at adding some more ideas later.  This thread has a few, but far from all of them.

There's no reason why your theory can't evolve.  This thread, I imagine, is a good way for you to identify the strong and weak points in your interpretation, and augment it as you desire.  I look forward to reading the next presentation of your interpretation. 

Modifié par BlueMoonSeraphim, 18 octobre 2012 - 10:34 .

[Davik Kang]

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...
There's no reason why your theory can't evolve.  This thread, I imagine, is a good way for you to identify the strong and weak points in your interpretation, and augment it as you desire.  I look forward to reading the next presentation of your interpretation. 

This thread and anywhere else where I can bounce ideas back and forth with other players.  I have thought of so much stuff in the last couple of days and it's starting to come together, especially thanks to a couple of extremely kind and helpful people.  Hopefully eventually I'll be able to build something like what TTG has done.

The tough thing is figuring out how to present it.  A lot of the claims need backing up, but backing up every claim needs so much info.  If it ends up too big it'll be indigestible.  So I need to think of some kind of appropriate formatting with key claims, key suppositions, key interpretations, and so on, that doesn't get swallowed by the meat of the argument (evidence, explanations etc.)

Modifié par Davik Kang, 18 octobre 2012 - 10:49 .

[Rixatrix]

Davik Kang wrote...
The tough thing is figuring out how to present it.  A lot of the claims need backing up, but backing up every claim needs so much info.  If it ends up too big it'll be indigestible.  So I need to think of some kind of appropriate formatting with key claims, key suppositions, key interpretations, and so on, that doesn't get swallowed by the meat of the argument (evidence, explanations etc.)

IMHO it's definitely an ambitious undertaking.  Were I to attempt something of the sort, in presentation, I would probably organize it much like a literary analysis paper: start with your argumentative thesis; then try to organize your points into sections with headings, subheadings, topic sentences, and support; cite to your evidence by using the primary source -- text, images, and video; and bring it home with a solid conclusion.

I notice people go about it in very different ways, but approaching it like literary or film analysis seems most natural to me -- like scholarly journal articles on lit, for example.  I definitely don't envy you the work - it'll be a lot of research, planning, and writing, to be sure.  I much prefer enjoying the fruits of everyone's intellectual labors!


If you need a sounding board or someone to bounce ideas off of, feel free to PM me. 

Modifié par BlueMoonSeraphim, 19 octobre 2012 - 06:39 .

[The Twilight God]

Those questions where rhetorical, but if you insist...

The Conduit was closing, that's why there was a time limit.

Who do you think opened it in the first place? Who do you think is closing it? There is nothing stopping the geth from keeping it open or reopening it. No excuse.

The geth decided to have all of their heavy units guard the Conduit itself to blow Shepard up as soon as she entered its own room, which I personally think is a somewhat more sensible strategy.

The geth decided that nigh stationary, slowing firing, slow projectile lobbing colossus were going to stop a mako in a large area with plenty of manuvering room by leaving a clear straight path right to the Conduit? That is the dumbest thing I have heard all day. No excuse.

He doesn't have the krogan army that he actually wants to use to attack the Citadel, to be on the safe side; additionally, he probably wanted more indoctrination information. As soon as Virmire is lost, he decides to just go ahead with what he has.

First of all Saren isn't in charge. He doesn't get to tell Sovereign to wait while he further studies what Sovereign is doing to his mind. Second, the Conduit was used to bypass defenses. A huge army was not needed for that. That army was being made to serve as reaper ground forces in an all out war after they came through the relay. No excuse.

Sovereign was already leaving the planet, and I suspect it didn't want to hang around in case Alliance forces might get a decent look at it. No one took the unique design of Saren's ship into account at the beginning of the game, so I suspect it leaving the field early on had some success, especially since Saren thought the explosive plan would work.

Alliance forces did get a decent look at it. They sent video in their distress call. Then the Normandy arrived and saw it. And everyone on the colony saw it. Everyone took the ships unique design into account. They just assumed it was something the Geth made. You act as if nobody noticed it. Sovereign could have destroyed the Normandy and obliterared the colony easily. No excuse.

The clones probably need time to incubate. As for the creepers, I suspect that the Thorian's reaction time isn't all that fast, it being a huge plant thing.

They would all incubate at once. So they still should have all hatched at the same time. Same for the creepers. They should have all awaken and attacked at once. No excuse.

It used the colonists to attack the Normandy first, and when that failed, sent them all after Shepard personally.

The question remains: Why didn't it have the colonist sabotage the console so that shepard couldn't enter the Thorian Lair? No excuse.

For the same reason the Reapers didn't do so to systems they conquered in ME3: the relays can only be shut down from the Citadel.

Using your own logic and assuming that were the case, why didn't mak it where they could deactivate them manually on an individual basis? And how do you know the Reapers can't deactivate them manually? No excuse. 

The seeker swarm storage chamber door was sealed, and the Collector siege in the final battle seemed to be coming through a different door. With most of the Collectors coming through that end, they probably didn't get the seeker swarm door open until too late.

"Seeker swarm storage chamber"? Now you're just making stuff up.  Anyway, the path is open. The rest of your squad is fighting the collectors at an open door. After the reaper embryo is defeated the swarms show up. No excuse.

That's the function of the Omega-4 relay itself, sending destructive energy surges through any non-Reaper ships that pass through it. The IFF is just the means to avoid that.

So why have the occulus drones at all. Ha! You contradict your own reply. So why not make the Occulus mines that explode on proximity or upon a hull breach? No excuse.

I would guess because the power has to be disabled manually, and no Collector was able to remain on the platform alive.

You guess? Heh. That's doubtful considering the sheer amount and they fact that the collectors do control it remotely on the collector ship. EDI is the one who has to take control and she can because they weren't expecting her and hence not prepared to deal with an AI. No excuse.

We don't quite know how the relays work, so I'm not sure of an answer for this, but I would imagine the answer had something to do with time. With every new relay built, its coordinates would have to be specially tuned to the Alpha Relay; to do that for every single relay, depending on how long it takes to build these things, could have taken far too long for the Reapers' purposes.

Oooooh. Now we don't know how it works. Funny how we do know how the Citadel works and we can just change it's design on a whelm since they'd had over a billion years. Hohohohohooooooooo. Hypocricy at it's best. No excuse.

I guess the Citadel can;t be changed because they;d have to tune the relays to account for the change?

I think that's how the keepers were activated. We've only ever seen QECs used for communication, never to actually activate something, and I don't think they can even be used for that purpose.

Yes, they can. They are used in the collectors, in husks, in Object Rho, in anything that has reaper tech. QEC's transfer information. No different than radio signals, fiber cable, etc. No excuse.