252 réponses à ce sujet

[clennon8]

I think some people diminish the geth's sapience so they can feel better about choosing Destroy. Personally, I consider the gethocaust to be a horrific sacrifice, and it bothers me a lot. I still choose Destroy, because those other two options are pretty obviously indoctrination, but the whole thing really ticks me off. Maybe I'm a sap, but committing a war crime and then maybe/probably dying in a heap of rubble wasn't the ending to my epic hundred hour journey that I was hoping for.

[futurepixels]

Davik Kang wrote...

Sauron001 wrote...
...Also can someone explain how turning talking computers off is Genocide? Legion* was alive but the other Geth were not they still refered to themselves as it. I like the Geth and EDI but seriously their computers.

There was a very interesting discussion on this in-game, between Engineer Adams and Dr. Chakwas.  You have to support one or the other to make them stop.  Chakwas was saying that living organisms are truly alove, and that to give machines the same rights would set a dangerous precedent.  Adams said that ultimately, you could consider living organisms machines too, and that there's no special reason to value an organic life over a synthetic life.  It was really well presented in game and I had a lot of trouble siding with one, and ultimately this conversation influenced me a great deal in making my final choice.

I don't think the issue is as simple as a lot of people make it out to be.  It's quite complex imo.

I agreed with Chakwas, and then let the Quarians destroy the Geth on my latest Femshep Renegon playthrough.

Modifié par futurepixels, 11 octobre 2012 - 08:20 .

[clennon8]

ATiBotka wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

Saren was talking exactly about Synthesis. You can do a line by line comparison. He's talking about the exact. same. thing. And by choosing Synthesis, YOU are submitting.

No, Saren implanted himself with Reaper tech to survive. He thought the Reapers would spare him, he was wrong, he was indoctrinated. And no, if you chose Synthesis you're not submitting to the Reapers.

Oh, okay, thank for clearing that up.  Saren (who didn't think he was indoctrinated) was indoctrinated, but Shepard wasn't indoctrinated because you don't think he was indoctrinated.  Enjoy your greenified submission to the Reapers.

[Bill Casey]

I agreed with Engineer Adams...

"Just because I'm saying the Reapers are alive doesn't mean I want them to stay that way."

Modifié par Bill Casey, 11 octobre 2012 - 08:23 .

[Seival]

Davik Kang wrote...

> Shepard is still able to activate the Crucible (Destroy), but under the indoctrination attempt, believes that she has three options.  The other two, Control and Synthesis, involve the indoctrination attempt succeeding and Shepard relinquishing herself and the Crucible to the Reapers.  Refuse has Shepard do nothing, leading to a straightforward Reaper victory.

This nonsense is why I dislike "serious" variants of "IT" so much.

Game built around moral choices can't have only one ending. And all "IT"ers want ME to have only one way to stop the Reapers - Destroy. Which is inacceptable.

If you want ultimate mission failure so much - choose Refusal ending, or die in any combat encounter and stop playing after that, considering this death as an ending. Problem solved.

/thread

Modifié par Seival, 11 octobre 2012 - 08:27 .

[ATiBotka]

clennon8 wrote...

ATiBotka wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

Saren was talking exactly about Synthesis. You can do a line by line comparison. He's talking about the exact. same. thing. And by choosing Synthesis, YOU are submitting.

No, Saren implanted himself with Reaper tech to survive. He thought the Reapers would spare him, he was wrong, he was indoctrinated. And no, if you chose Synthesis you're not submitting to the Reapers.

Enjoy your greenified submission to the Reapers.

I will enjoy IT.

[Davik Kang]

clennon8 wrote...
I think some people diminish the geth's sapience so they can feel better about choosing Destroy. Personally, I consider the gethocaust to be a horrific sacrifice, and it bothers me a lot. I still choose Destroy, because those other two options are pretty obviously indoctrination, but the whole thing really ticks me off. Maybe I'm a sap, but committing a war crime and then maybe/probably dying in a heap of rubble wasn't the ending to my epic hundred hour journey that I was hoping for.

Yeah I agree, I felt it was genocide and was a horrific thing to do too; I also felt disgusted at what I did to EDI, as she had pretty much said that she was, in a way, a daughter of Shepard and Joker, as they had allowed to her break free of her programming and develop a personality.  It certainly wasn't a win-win ending.

[clennon8]

@Saival:  Right. Because it's more important that everyone be right than it is to stick to strongly developed themes.

Modifié par clennon8, 11 octobre 2012 - 08:28 .

[Bill Casey]

Seival wrote...

This nonsense is why I dislike "serious" variants of "IT" so much.

Game
built around moral choices can't have only one ending. And all
"IT"ers want ME to have only one way to stop the Reapers - Destroy.
Which is inacceptable.

If you want ultimate mission failure so
much - choose Refusal ending, or die in any combat encounter and stop
playing after that, considering this death as an ending. Problem solved.

/thread

You're doing just what the reapers want. You're still doing it because they control you...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 11 octobre 2012 - 08:28 .

[Xilizhra]

clennon8 wrote...

@Saival:  Right. Because it's more important that everyone be right than it is to stick to strongly developed themes.

When the themes are infantile and brutish, maybe it is.

[mauro2222]

futurepixels wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

Sauron001 wrote...
...Also can someone explain how turning talking computers off is Genocide? Legion* was alive but the other Geth were not they still refered to themselves as it. I like the Geth and EDI but seriously their computers.

There was a very interesting discussion on this in-game, between Engineer Adams and Dr. Chakwas.  You have to support one or the other to make them stop.  Chakwas was saying that living organisms are truly alove, and that to give machines the same rights would set a dangerous precedent.  Adams said that ultimately, you could consider living organisms machines too, and that there's no special reason to value an organic life over a synthetic life.  It was really well presented in game and I had a lot of trouble siding with one, and ultimately this conversation influenced me a great deal in making my final choice.

I don't think the issue is as simple as a lot of people make it out to be.  It's quite complex imo.

I agreed with Chakwas, and then let the Quarians destroy the Geth on my latest Femshep Renegon playthrough.

Chakwas just used fear to give a reasoning, that shows how primitive we are to even consider this. A reasoning based on prejudice and ignorance, I don't see her running to a bunker when Miranda comes by, and she's synthetic life too.

[Davik Kang]

Seival wrote...
This nonsense is why I dislike "serious" variants of "IT" so much.

Game built around moral choices can't have only one ending. And all "IT"ers want ME to have only one way to stop the Reapers - Destroy. Which is inacceptable.

If you want ultimate mission failure so much - choose Refusal ending, or die in any combat encounter and stop playing after that, considering this death as an ending. Problem solved.

/thread

Kind of an odd thing to post, considering we've discussed our interpretations elsewhere and the discussion has been mostly civil.  You don't see me posting in your Control Support thread saying " Nonsense... /thread ".  You're welcome to interpret that the Kid wasn't indoctrinating you.  But the hints are at least strong enough for it to be very possible, perhaps even probable.

[MB957]

I think the ending still sucks, because it still kills off the geth and edi...my sheps friends. that this is the only option in game is a fail to me.

also...its all good until the leviathins just go and make more AI and reapers...

so again...its all for nothing...the ole life sucks then ya die nihilistic crap they want to peddle in these stories

[mauro2222]

Xilizhra wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

@Saival:  Right. Because it's more important that everyone be right than it is to stick to strongly developed themes.

When the themes are infantile and brutish, maybe it is.

Maturity, because it makes you special and better. Happyness is childish now.

[Seival]

Bill Casey wrote...

Seival wrote...

This nonsense is why I dislike "serious" variants of "IT" so much.

Game
built around moral choices can't have only one ending. And all
"IT"ers want ME to have only one way to stop the Reapers - Destroy.
Which is inacceptable.

If you want ultimate mission failure so
much - choose Refusal ending, or die in any combat encounter and stop
playing after that, considering this death as an ending. Problem solved.

/thread

You're doing just what the reapers want. You're still doing it because they control you...

And what I dislike even more, is when some people start to move "IT" into real life.

[clennon8]

Xilizhra wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

@Saival:  Right. Because it's more important that everyone be right than it is to stick to strongly developed themes.

When the themes are infantile and brutish, maybe it is.

See, this is what gets me about a lot of you Synth-heads.  It's like you spent dozens or hundreds of hours participating in a story and never liked anything about it until it turned itself on its head in the last 10 minutes.

[Seival]

Thread reported for provocation, spam, and duplicating.

[Xilizhra]

clennon8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

@Saival:  Right. Because it's more important that everyone be right than it is to stick to strongly developed themes.

When the themes are infantile and brutish, maybe it is.

See, this is what gets me about a lot of you Synth-heads.  It's like you spent dozens or hundreds of hours participating in a story and never liked anything about it until it turned itself on its head in the last 10 minutes.

Really? I had the option to save the Collector base back in ME2, and that didn't lead to critical mission failure.

[futurepixels]

mauro2222 wrote...

futurepixels wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

Sauron001 wrote...
...Also can someone explain how turning talking computers off is Genocide? Legion* was alive but the other Geth were not they still refered to themselves as it. I like the Geth and EDI but seriously their computers.

There was a very interesting discussion on this in-game, between Engineer Adams and Dr. Chakwas.  You have to support one or the other to make them stop.  Chakwas was saying that living organisms are truly alove, and that to give machines the same rights would set a dangerous precedent.  Adams said that ultimately, you could consider living organisms machines too, and that there's no special reason to value an organic life over a synthetic life.  It was really well presented in game and I had a lot of trouble siding with one, and ultimately this conversation influenced me a great deal in making my final choice.

I don't think the issue is as simple as a lot of people make it out to be.  It's quite complex imo.

I agreed with Chakwas, and then let the Quarians destroy the Geth on my latest Femshep Renegon playthrough.

Chakwas just used fear to give a reasoning, that shows how primitive we are to even consider this. A reasoning based on prejudice and ignorance, I don't see her running to a bunker when Miranda comes by, and she's synthetic life too.

Being fearful of synthetic life is entirely reasonable based on logic, and the history of the Mass Effect galaxy.

Geth != Miranda Lawson

[Bill Casey]

Speaking of Adams...

Engineer Adams: That said, Cerberus isn't too high on safety. If pushed past her limits, this core would vent into engineering. Guess it gives my team incentive to keep her well-balanced during a firefight.

Shepard: ""Do your job or get vaporized.""

Engineer Adams: Pretty much.

I love irony...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 11 octobre 2012 - 08:42 .

[Bill Casey]

Seival wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Seival wrote...

This nonsense is why I dislike "serious" variants of "IT" so much.

Game
built around moral choices can't have only one ending. And all
"IT"ers want ME to have only one way to stop the Reapers - Destroy.
Which is inacceptable.

If you want ultimate mission failure so
much - choose Refusal ending, or die in any combat encounter and stop
playing after that, considering this death as an ending. Problem solved.

/thread

You're doing just what the reapers want. You're still doing it because they control you...

And what I dislike even more, is when some people start to move "IT" into real life.

It's exactly what the ending is, Seival...
An Indoctrination attempt on the audience...
If you don't like it, maybe Mass Effect isn't for you...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 11 octobre 2012 - 08:41 .

[Davik Kang]

mauro2222 wrote...
Chakwas just used fear to give a reasoning, that shows how primitive we are to even consider this. A reasoning based on prejudice and ignorance, I don't see her running to a bunker when Miranda comes by, and she's synthetic life too.

That's a little oversimplified.  Chakwas's point is that if you equate synthetic life to organic life, then computers and machines, which are initially programmed by organics, basically become equal to organics.  The ultimate point being that eventually all organics may be killed, and only synthetics would remain.  I don't think there's an easy answer either way, but the thought of that was quite unsettling for some reason.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 06 novembre 2012 - 02:36 .

[mauro2222]

futurepixels wrote...

Being fearful of synthetic life is entirely reasonable based on logic, and the history of the Mass Effect galaxy.

Geth != Miranda Lawson

It's also entirely reasonable to have fear of other organic life, it's called fear to the unknown. But again, I don't see them bombing everything they don't know, in fact they approach to those things and they study them, the fear dissapears. Here we have an ignorant posture, wich results in wars, death and misery. You can have all the fear you want, but you can't act on it.

[Davik Kang]

Seival wrote...
Thread reported for provocation, spam, and duplicating.

Good luck with that.  Let's see what happens.

[AlanC9]

Bill Casey wrote...
It's exactly what the ending is, Seival...
An Indoctrination attempt on the audience...
If you don't like it, maybe Mass Effect isn't for you...

Your faith is... touching.

When the last DLC ships and IT is dead and buried, will I see you here admitting it?