431 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Ar7emis wrote...

decisions in ME1 or ME2 may
not seem like a huge impact in the end, but ME3 makes you remember
everything that you did, your experience, your struggles, your
victories

And reminds me of how they all culminated into a big ball of bathos... All for nothing, if you will.

More like the choice on hand did not end the way you wanted.....
The thing your missing is your goal is to save the galexy. All the choice in the end do that...The issue here is you don't like how...

You have 4 versions of destroy and 3 for control.

[SpamBot2000]

Let's see... No.

[Unschuld]

The meaning of sacrifice is suddenly kowtowing to the a genocidal enemy's whims at the 11th hour and killing yourself in the offbeat chance that everything will be awwwriiiight because they told you so?

Yeah, that's a GREAT message!

[Jadebaby]

Nightwriter wrote...

Noelemahc wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

One of the worst problems with the ending is you don't get to call the Catalyst on its shit. People come up with all kinds of excuses for it: "Oh, it's a computer, you're not supposed to try to argue with it." "It's amoral, there's no point debating." "It's just telling it like it is, stop trying to treat it like a person."

Malarkey, all of it, I say. Humans have been arguing with computers about human values in science fiction since time immemorial. I did not get through this epic space saga just to shrug and accept the computer's bullsh*t rules just because it's a computer.

The worst part of it, you can just quote EDI's numerous monologues on human nature that she gives if you take the full-Paragon route through her doubts, and they ALL form a workable critique of how much the ending sucks.

Starting with "Moral decisions cannot be made in a vacuum. I should discuss this with my crewmates, to learn their opinions" as the biggest WTF directed at the RGB options themselves.

Or, you know, quote Iron Savior lyrics at it, they all fit nicely too.

"Iron, Iron Savior, look what you have done!
Can't you see, your assessment might be wrong?
Iron, Iron Savior, robot of the law,
End this ill-fated, devastating war!"

There's so much things that COULD HAVE BEEN done about that final dialogue instead of Shepard playing the role of the doubting customer and the Starchild pretending to be a telemarketer.

"Destroy sucks. Can I switch you off instead?" - "But wait, there's more! Two more whole options, in fact! Totally different!"

Go look it up on YouTube. That's EXACTLY how the dialogue goes in the EC. Shepard is playing "Princess or the Tiger" with three doors, one of which contains a Yahg, another - a Krogan in a fit of bloodrage, and the third - an Ardat-Yakshi in heat.

Wow I completely forgot EDI said that.

Its depressing that their ending could contradict their own writing that hard.

EDI's quote was; "Moral decision should not be made in a vacuum. If I do not ask the crew for their opinion. I may miss key context."

[redcarpet26]

Nope. All it did was disappoint. I wanted a possible happy ending for shep, EDI, the Geth, and everyone else who didn't die previously, just like at the end of ME2. Call me stupid or infantile, but it's what I wanted and I didn't get it so it pissed me off. Even dragon age origins had the possiblity of genuine survival (shep-breath scene doesn't count).

[Blueprotoss]

redcarpet26 wrote...

Nope. All it did was disappoint. I wanted a possible happy ending for shep, EDI, the Geth, and everyone else who didn't die previously, just like at the end of ME2. Call me stupid or infantile, but it's what I wanted and I didn't get it so it pissed me off. Even dragon age origins had the possiblity of genuine survival (shep-breath scene doesn't count).

To be fair characters will die in ME3 and if you want to reach certain goals then death is unavoidable like Mordin with the Genophage or Legion with the Geth.  Also ME was never about happiness even when the Reapers are coming couldnt be stopped like Skynet in the Terminator series or Winter in the Game of Thrones.

[dreman9999]

Unschuld wrote...

The meaning of sacrifice is suddenly kowtowing to the a genocidal enemy's whims at the 11th hour and killing yourself in the offbeat chance that everything will be awwwriiiight because they told you so?

Yeah, that's a GREAT message!

That doesnot stop form being a sacrifice. Added, if you didn't beleveive it's telling the truth with control...Why beleive it with destroy?

[dreman9999]

redcarpet26 wrote...

Nope. All it did was disappoint. I wanted a possible happy ending for shep, EDI, the Geth, and everyone else who didn't die previously, just like at the end of ME2. Call me stupid or infantile, but it's what I wanted and I didn't get it so it pissed me off. Even dragon age origins had the possiblity of genuine survival (shep-breath scene doesn't count).

The doesnot dicount the fact it's about sacrifice. It just means you don't want to sacrifice anything.

[rowan93]

Yeah you remember all the choices you made, because you are left wondering why they all meant nothing.

[Unschuld]

dreman9999 wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

The meaning of sacrifice is suddenly kowtowing to the a genocidal enemy's whims at the 11th hour and killing yourself in the offbeat chance that everything will be awwwriiiight because they told you so?

Yeah, that's a GREAT message!

That doesnot stop form being a sacrifice. Added, if you didn't beleveive it's telling the truth with control...Why beleive it with destroy?

I didn't mention destroy (though I prefer it for my ending) as an exception to that. All of them count. I also didn't say this prevents it from being a sacrifice, but it DOES make it a hollow/meaningless sacrifice, or one committed under moronic pretenses. Your ending, no matter the choice, is dictated to you by the enemy. I'll admit, even control and synthesis would be easier for me to swallow if they were done IN DEFIANCE of the starkid, rather than have him present them as options. 

[Atherus]

Well cut all things between the dying scene of Anderson and Shep right before Hackett calls and put the destroy ending cinematic right after that and I´m in it for the sacrifice, because that would have been a good ending. I mean I fully moved into watching mode in that scene and waited for the ending and my emotions were going totaly in sad-mode ..... and than suddenly all this really strange things happened ... and there was a dead kid that was the catalyst ... and I should choose between Red Green and Blue and it all went terrible ... and then an old man told me I was just a kid and he told me a tale of Shepard ...and ... I was just ...WTF?!

That was my first experience of the ending pre EC and no, even now I just think, just cut this strange thing between Anderson and the firering of the beam, just let my Shepard die in peace.

Casey said they didn´t do a bossfight for the sake of a bossfight ... well for me the Catalyst choices were there for the sake of choices. I´m for it that in the future they should categorize Games in the same way they do it with Movies, you know like Comedy RPG, Drama Shooter, Love Beat Em´Up etc. Because after my experience with ME 3, I think we need that.

[dreman9999]

Unschuld wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

The meaning of sacrifice is suddenly kowtowing to the a genocidal enemy's whims at the 11th hour and killing yourself in the offbeat chance that everything will be awwwriiiight because they told you so?

Yeah, that's a GREAT message!

That doesnot stop form being a sacrifice. Added, if you didn't beleveive it's telling the truth with control...Why beleive it with destroy?

I didn't mention destroy (though I prefer it for my ending) as an exception to that. All of them count. I also didn't say this prevents it from being a sacrifice, but it DOES make it a hollow/meaningless sacrifice, or one committed under moronic pretenses. Your ending, no matter the choice, is dictated to you by the enemy. I'll admit, even control and synthesis would be easier for me to swallow if they were done IN DEFIANCE of the starkid, rather than have him present them as options. 

The only time it a meaningless sacrifice is that the thing you sacrificing for is farworse value then you think it is or still dies any way.

You sacrifice is not for the catalyst...It for the galexy.....And the galexy live on. Better then withthe reaper if you pick control or destory.

People keep missing one detail. Control and destory is not something the catalyst controls..It just what the crucible does.  Only synthesis is what the catalyst wants.

You ending is not dictated by the enemy because you enemy has no control over the crucible out side of synthesis....And that only if you let the catalyst do synthesis.

The catalyst is as much as a victem to the crucible as you are.

[dreman9999]

Atherus wrote...

Well cut all things between the dying scene of Anderson and Shep right before Hackett calls and put the destroy ending cinematic right after that and I´m in it for the sacrifice, because that would have been a good ending. I mean I fully moved into watching mode in that scene and waited for the ending and my emotions were going totaly in sad-mode ..... and than suddenly all this really strange things happened ... and there was a dead kid that was the catalyst ... and I should choose between Red Green and Blue and it all went terrible ... and then an old man told me I was just a kid and he told me a tale of Shepard ...and ... I was just ...WTF?!

That was my first experience of the ending pre EC and no, even now I just think, just cut this strange thing between Anderson and the firering of the beam, just let my Shepard die in peace.

Casey said they didn´t do a bossfight for the sake of a bossfight ... well for me the Catalyst choices were there for the sake of choices. I´m for it that in the future they should categorize Games in the same way they do it with Movies, you know like Comedy RPG, Drama Shooter, Love Beat Em´Up etc. Because after my experience with ME 3, I think we need that.

But ME has always been about choices. The very reason they introduced the catalyst was to have a voice box for the reapers..They could of easily had any one else present the 4 choices in the end.

[Verit]

Mike1220 wrote...
I 100% agree with him. What do you guys think?

I don't agree at all. Let me elaborate:

Mike1220 wrote...
The point of the ending is not to make you feel like you won everything, but to make you
understand the meaning of sacrifice that you should never have bothered to try in the first place.

Fixed.

Mike1220 wrote...
You pick how you want to live and be remembered by.

Let's see, you can choose to be remembered for one of these things:

- wiping out all synthetic life in the entire galaxy to kill the Reapers
- creating a new Catalyst that uses the Reapers to effectively enslave the entire galaxy to its will
- mutate everyone into a hybrid lifeform, following the Reaper ideology that synthetics and organics cannot co-exist peacefully
- sacrificing everyone by not using the Crucible, which a later cycle used anyway

Sacrifice? There's certainly plenty of that! You're sacrificing Shepard's ideals for a start. Understanding the meaning behind sacrifice? The endings are devoid of meaning. Shepard was rendered entirely powerless and sheepisly chooses how to lose. In the one ending where he/she opposes the Catalyst, everyone dies and even then, Shepard's choice is ridiculed when the Crucible is used anyway in a later cycle. It's an ending that seemingly intentionally undermines and destroys what the player fought for.

[dreman9999]

-Draikin- wrote...

Mike1220 wrote...
I 100% agree with him. What do you guys think?

I don't agree at all. Let me elaborate:

Mike1220 wrote...
The point of the ending is not to make you feel like you won everything, but to make you
understand the meaning of sacrifice that you should never have bothered to try in the first place.

Fixed.

Mike1220 wrote...
You pick how you want to live and be remembered by.

Let's see, you can choose to be remembered for one of these things:

- wiping out all synthetic life in the entire galaxy to kill the Reapers
- creating a new Catalyst that uses the Reapers to effectively enslave the entire galaxy to its will
- mutate everyone into a hybrid lifeform, following the Reaper ideology that synthetics and organics cannot co-exist peacefully
- sacrificing everyone by not using the Crucible, which a later cycle used anyway

Sacrifice? There's certainly plenty of that! You're sacrificing Shepard's ideals for a start. Understanding the meaning behind sacrifice? The endings are devoid of meaning. Shepard was rendered entirely powerless and sheepisly chooses how to lose. In the one ending where he/she opposes the Catalyst, everyone dies and even then, Shepard's choice is ridiculed when the Crucible is used anyway in a later cycle. It's an ending that seemingly intentionally undermines and destroys what the player fought for.

1. BS. Opening ad for ME1 tells you you're going to sacrifice.

2."- wiping out all synthetic life in the entire galaxy to kill the Reapers"
The truth is that no one will hate you for doing that and it's a casualty of war.

"- creating a new Catalyst that uses the Reapers to effectively enslave the entire galaxy to its will"

That's up to you're Shepard. You're Shepards AI does not have to do that and can just let all life make desisions on there own.

"- mutate everyone into a hybrid lifeform, following the Reaper ideology that synthetics and organics cannot co-exist peacefully"
Then don't pick synthesis.

"- sacrificing everyone by not using the Crucible, which a later cycle used anyway"
Then don't pick refuse.

You need to look up what sacrifice means.
The only time sacrifice is meaningless is if whatyou sacraficing for is less then you think it is or it dies or falls in ill fate desipite your sacrifice..
Nothing in the epologue points to that. And only sysnthesis has issues with that.

Modifié par dreman9999, 12 octobre 2012 - 05:11 .

[palician]

Atherus wrote...

Casey said they didn´t do a bossfight for the sake of a bossfight ... well for me the Catalyst choices were there for the sake of choices.

This

[Slayer299]

Sorry, OP, but for me that's a 'no'. I didn't miss the point, it was a choice of 4 deaths is all it was and it made me feel as if I'd lost, not won.

[HK-90210]

I always saw the endings as a missed opprotunity, more than anything else. I pick destroy for all my Shepards, and I really wish I didn't. I wish that my Shepards, varied as they are, COULD pick another ending. But none of them accept what the Starchild says. None of them trust him, as he is the leader of the Reapers, the enemy they have been fighting for 3 games.

But even disregarding that, I feel that Control and Synthesis fail as endings for two reasons. One, there's no way for the player to know how their chosen ending REALLY pans out. In Control, how can we be sure what the Shepard AI will do with the Reaper's power? How will they 'protect the many'? And with synthesis, even EDI isn't sure what the heck the future is going to be like in this senario. In then end, I think there were too many unknowns about these two endings for thme to be accepted by a lot of players.

But the other reason I think these two endings fail is that Shepard ALWAYS dies in them. Shepard is the player's personal connection to the universe. They always view the world through Shepard's perspective. So to kill Shepard is to sever that connection. So all the sacrifices that the player has made to reach this point are now, at least on some level, disconnnected. The universe is a lot less 'real' to a lot of players. Do I think that Shepard should have been dead in SOME of the edings? Heck yes. Do I think he should be dead in all but one? No. This makes the ending  with less of an impact, in the end.

So in Control and Synthesis it is unknown what really happens to the galaxy at large in the long run, and the player has less of a reason to care in the first place. So all in all, they simply fail as endings.

And that leaves us with Destroy, which requires the destruction of all the Geth and EDI in order for the player to maintain their connection to the universe, as well as have a good idea of what happens after ME3 is over. This is not a sacrifice a lot of players feel is warranted, given that Control and Synthesis are so unappealing in the first place. So yeah, I think the endings could have been pulled off better. Mass Effect 3, to me, will always be one of those 'could have been so great' games. And it was so close to being so. Unfortunately, I think Bioware made some mistakes(Jacob's 'romance' being the worst turd of the bunch). This made what was a GREAT series into a so-so series. And that makes me, as a ardently passionate Bioware fan, very sad.

Forrest Gump: And that's about all I have to say about that.

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 12 octobre 2012 - 05:44 .

[N7 Lisbeth]

No.

Modifié par N7 Lisbeth, 12 octobre 2012 - 05:40 .

[Atherus]

dreman9999 wrote...

But ME has always been about choices. The very reason they introduced the catalyst was to have a voice box for the reapers..They could of easily had any one else present the 4 choices in the end.

No, in my opinion the choices where exactly where they are, bacause they didn´t know where to put them otherwise.
As we know, they started to work for the ending literally at the last moment of development. that means that most of the retake earth mission was already finished. So to trigger the different endings (that were really just different after the EC) they must put it somewhere, where it not collidates with the retake earth mission. Their place right behind the point, where most people thought "That´s it folkes, was a nice ride, and now I´m gonna rest a little ...".

I think all decisicions that mattered for the outcome of your story should have taken place right before your way to earth.
Just like in DA: O  where you put all your decisions that mattered right at the phase before going to Denerim:

- Will you sacrifice yourself or Alistair?
- Or will you or Alistair make the dark ritual with Morrigan to save yourself?
- What Allies will you bring with you, who will help you, and what will happen afterwards?

That´s all decisions you make BEFORE the big final Battle with the Archdemon. The Battle itself is just what it should be: the culmilation of all your decisions you made in your story:

- Who will be your allies?
- What of a world will you left behind when you are gone?
- Was there a way to save yourself, that you just didn´t see?

Yes the execution in DA was a little bit clunky, but just imagine the same approach in the final Mission of Retake Earth:

- Krogans side by side with Turians fighting down the Reapers.
- Volus Bomber destroying enemy reinforcements to make your way through the ruins easier.
- Short intermezzos with some of your old squadmates.
- Will your efforts be rewarded, or will the reapers just crush you?

could write even more, but I think you get the picture.

The Finale should give your emotions and your adrenaline time to raise up, to boil over, so that you could releave them at the end, may it be sad, or happy emotions, but they should give you that time.

The choices at the ending where more like a :"Oh, before I forget it! Here are three very difficult choices you must make! Have fun with it!" that ripping you right out of this emotional state you were in after 5 years of laughing, griefing, mourning and fighting, to just let you behind ... confused ... helpless ... clueless.
Where ther were maybe two different emotions like happyness or sadness mixed with a little bit of accomplishment, of deserved rest, they now were replaced with so many totally unneeded ones.

That´s why for me, the part with the catalyst and his choices was just in the wrong place and unneeded.

Modifié par Atherus, 12 octobre 2012 - 05:52 .

[Mathias]

dreman9999 wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

The meaning of sacrifice is suddenly kowtowing to the a genocidal enemy's whims at the 11th hour and killing yourself in the offbeat chance that everything will be awwwriiiight because they told you so?

Yeah, that's a GREAT message!

That doesnot stop form being a sacrifice. Added, if you didn't beleveive it's telling the truth with control...Why beleive it with destroy?

I agree with Dreman9999. It's like that one time a guy a suicide bombed a building, sacrificing himself in the name of Allah.

It's still a sacrifice damnit! 

[Iakus]

dreman9999 wrote...

redcarpet26 wrote...

Nope. All it did was disappoint. I wanted a possible happy ending for shep, EDI, the Geth, and everyone else who didn't die previously, just like at the end of ME2. Call me stupid or infantile, but it's what I wanted and I didn't get it so it pissed me off. Even dragon age origins had the possiblity of genuine survival (shep-breath scene doesn't count).

The doesnot dicount the fact it's about sacrifice. It just means you don't want to sacrifice anything.

It's not a sacrifice because there is no choice involved.  Shepard has no chocie but to "sacrifice".  Every single option, including choosing not to choose leads to Shepard's death or apparant death.  That's neither choice nor sacrifice, that's railroading.

[Seifer006]

Mike1220 wrote...

A man on Youtube posted this to counter what someone said about the ending being bad.
"Then you completely missed the ending. The point of the
ending is not to make you feel like you won everything, but to make you
understand the meaning of sacrifice. Yeah, decisions in ME1 or ME2 may
not seem like a huge impact in the end, but ME3 makes you remember
everything that you did, your experience, your struggles, your
victories. In the end, you save the galaxy and let all beings be as they
have always been.
You pick how you want to live and be remembered by."

I 100% agree with him. What do you guys think?

[AlanC9]

CastonFolarus wrote...

I always saw the endings as a missed opprotunity, more than anything else. I pick destroy for all my Shepards, and I really wish I didn't. I wish that my Shepards, varied as they are, COULD pick another ending. But none of them accept what the Starchild says. None of them trust him, as he is the leader of the Reapers, the enemy they have been fighting for 3 games.

Well, your Sheps all did trust one part of what he was saying, since they used the Destroy option rather than avoiding the Crucible altogether.

[HK-90210]

AlanC9 wrote...

CastonFolarus wrote...

I always saw the endings as a missed opprotunity, more than anything else. I pick destroy for all my Shepards, and I really wish I didn't. I wish that my Shepards, varied as they are, COULD pick another ending. But none of them accept what the Starchild says. None of them trust him, as he is the leader of the Reapers, the enemy they have been fighting for 3 games.

Well, your Sheps all did trust one part of what he was saying, since they used the Destroy option rather than avoiding the Crucible altogether.

Picking Destroy on the off-chance that the Starchild isn't bull****ing them isn't exactly trusting. They figure there's a greater chance of the Starchild being honest about Destroy then by winning without using the Crucible. Sources my Shepards actually trust, along with their own experience, say that that is impossible.

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 12 octobre 2012 - 07:15 .