431 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

darthoptimus003 wrote...

sorry didnt spend money on a bs deep meaning i spent money to be entertained
and i wasnt thanks to the ending

Then you should of never bought ME1 then.

[palician]

[quote]drayfish wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

Most people just want Shepard to live and kill the reapers with no comprimises. You can't denie that people who hate the ending just want this.
[/quote]
I didn't like the ending or the over all plot but I dont think that the ending should be without sacrifice.
Although some people may have wanted to defeat the reapers without compromise,I dont think most people wanted that.

Modifié par palician, 12 octobre 2012 - 12:58 .

[dreman9999]

Fades56 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Fades56 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Fades56 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

hukbum wrote...

A youtube user wrote...

In the end, you save the galaxy and let all beings be as they
have always been.
You pick how you want to live and be remembered by."

Not in the game I've played ...  maybe he's got a diffrent copy?


Edit: Fixed the quote.

So in the end of ME3, everyone died or did not rebuild the galexy and live happy because of Shepards sacrific?

Your kind of implying Shep had a way out, no sacrifice in the end just choosing the way you want to die, DAO had an Ok version of how a hero could sacrifice themselves for the betterment of everyone else, this only gives you different choices as to how you want to die.

Don'tbring DAO into this. We don't even know the results of the actions of the ending yet. For all we know it just means living long enoughto have something worse happen. It just a happy ending for now.

K just meant they actually implemented a better use of choosing a Hero's sacrifice, letting someone else take the sacrifice or making a deal with a witch, kind of challenges your morals there and you know what gonna happen, here I know that Shep lives in HIgh Ems destroy, buit really was that made clear that you live by anything before you make the choice, nope just that you manage to finally get rid of the reapers by shooting through our own allies, but yeah just all suicide from the choices we are given and how you want to die, just my opinion.

Destroy high ems destroy has all synthetic life make the sacrific while your Shepard lives. And it matter not if it was made clear.

It kind of does, otherwise they are all death, death, and death with a chance of surviving, and the so called sacrifice of synthetic life just seems empty if you destroyed the geth on Rannoch or if they can be rebuilt all be rebuilt.

You don't like EDI?

[dreman9999]

Mystiq6 wrote...

They keep saying Sacrifice was the point all along, and I can argue that they did a poor job of reflecting that theme in the game. So many people say that the primary theme of the game is overcoming impossible odds through teamwork. Shepard's anticlimactic finale was at the bottom of my possible outcomes list.

With all the war assets I collected, I was expecting a massive final battle. Yeah, a video game ending but hey, this is a video game. It didn't have to be typical. I just wanted an ending. I still don't think we got one. Instead, I was handed a pity victory.

That's an issue of ends vs means and you not having to sacrific all the time does not detour that fact sacrific is in the ending and part of it's theme. We had many sacrifices in ME3 from Mordin, Thane, to Legion. We had to do that on Virmire and the citadel choice. ME is filled with sacrific.
Just because one of the means to your end did not have Shepard sacrific all the time does not mean it's not a theme and it was poorly reflected.

[gremorylore]

In control it is Sacrifice (an already debatable one cosidering what the reapers are) but only if these "things" are mindless drones. This is the only thing I can give you.
The others two... well it is sufficient to say that you have no right to pick such an extreme, definitive, likely irreversible choice. No right at all. And please be aware to not confuse too much the "(self-)preservation" issue with any of the moral points (which are also) attested during the whole game. Let's even remember that "the end" does not necessarily justify "the means" (especially at these levels).
For the sake of the discussion let's also remember that Sacrifice involves the single Individual only.

You have the task to save the people; more, you have to save all the galaxy. Alone. (in a "rpg" sci-fi story...ok).
Yet if you betray yourself, your own ideals, you are already unworthy.

So get a moral unworthy life\\death with RGB or die free and with honour unbroken in refusal. Those are the choices of the ME3 endings.

[dreman9999]

crimzontearz wrote...

No and we were promised an array of VERY DIFFERENT endings and that our choices would matter in OUR story. That is what I paid for but never was given

We have 9 different recults of the ending choices.
 4 for destroy. 3 for control. 1 for refuse and 1 for synthesis. All based on EMS. We were never promised a kill all reapers without sacrific and Shepard lives ending.

[dreman9999]

gremorylore wrote...

In control it is Sacrifice (an already debatable one cosidering what the reapers are) but only if these "things" are mindless drones. This is the only thing I can give you.
The others two... well it is sufficient to say that you have no right to pick such an extreme, definitive, likely irreversible choice. No right at all. And please be aware to not confuse too much the "(self-)preservation" issue with any of the moral points (which are also) attested during the whole game. Let's even remember that "the end" does not necessarily justify "the means" (especially at these levels).
For the sake of the discussion let's also remember that Sacrifice involves the single Individual only.

You have the task to save the people; more, you have to save all the galaxy. Alone. (in a "rpg" sci-fi story...ok).
Yet if you betray yourself, your own ideals, you are already unworthy.

So get a moral unworthy lifedeath with RGB or die free and with honour unbroken in refusal. Those are the choices of the ME3 endings.

The point is to do waht ever it takes to stop an unstoppable force, not stay true to you morals. If stopping the reaper means sacrificing your morals then so be it. No one will be happy that they are dieing off because you had to stay true to your morals...That 's egotisical.

[dreman9999]

drayfish wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Most people just want Shepard to live and kill the reapers with no comprimises. You can't denie that people who hate the ending just want this.

I didn't like the ending or the over all plot but I dont think that the ending should be without sacrifice.
Although some people may have wanted to defeat the reapers without compromise,I dont think most people wanted that.

As inheritein with rpgs and life...People don't pick the conflicts the face. I'm sure there people who did not want to pick who to let die on Virmire.

Modifié par dreman9999, 12 octobre 2012 - 01:29 .

[clennon8]

No. The endings suck balls. Those of you who are like "Oh, the sacrifice! I are moved!" and therefore think the endings aren't objectively horrible are wrong.

[ld1449]

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

no, oh and I have one friend who liked the ending, he didn't love it but he didn't hate it either. Everyone else I know didn't like the ending.

That should tell you something.

The ending is not deep, its not meaningful. Its not even poignant. Its pointless and is merely the most incompetent and moronically elaborate way I've ever seen to simply kill off a character. Because that's really ALL they did. They killed Shepard off. Sacrifice requires the choice to make the sacrifice, the ability to say no and the availability of survivability. Shepard does not have that. Which is why it will always be an authors will enforced on the plot, rather than the plot evolving and shaping on its own.

[crimzontearz]

dreman9999 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

No and we were promised an array of VERY DIFFERENT endings and that our choices would matter in OUR story. That is what I paid for but never was given

We have 9 different recults of the ending choices.
 4 for destroy. 3 for control. 1 for refuse and 1 for synthesis. All based on EMS. We were never promised a kill all reapers without sacrific and Shepard lives ending.

I would GLADLY sacrifice earth, the geth, the quarians, the Normandy's crew and half the sentient life of the galaxy to have a Shepard lives + reunion ending. That enough sacrifice to be approved by you? Enough to pass the test of maturity?


 
According to the polls that is what a lot odlf people wanted but all we got was more speculation and apparently the reaffirmation that we paid for a lesson in the darkness of life and whatever other grimdark mature theme they wanted to school us on.  That's fine, you are right we were never promised a happy ending...I never promised them to buy another new game from them, hopefully enough will so the same do  Bioware will actually be dissolved and their manpower repurposed.

Modifié par crimzontearz, 12 octobre 2012 - 01:21 .

[FredLOMD]

The problem with the ending isn't the intent but the execution. Endings like this require you to spend the entire game building up the player's emotional commitments to characters and aspects of the plot and Bioware missed the mark on setting these up. Many people here also bear the scars of the original ending which was just way to vague on too many points. The EC endings are much better, If you want to read it I did a very lengthy analysis in the third section of the post linked in my sig.

Personally, I couldn't stand the original endings but find the EC endings acceptable. I'm all for Shepard making the ultimate sacrifice in the end and for the choice made to be difficult and full of shades of grey. It's the execution of the whole thing that bugs me.

[dreman9999]

ld1449 wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

no, oh and I have one friend who liked the ending, he didn't love it but he didn't hate it either. Everyone else I know didn't like the ending.

That should tell you something.

The ending is not deep, its not meaningful. Its not even poignant. Its pointless and is merely the most incompetent and moronically elaborate way I've ever seen to simply kill off a character. Because that's really ALL they did. They killed Shepard off. Sacrifice requires the choice to make the sacrifice, the ability to say no and the availability of survivability. Shepard does not have that. Which is why it will always be an authors will enforced on the plot, rather than the plot evolving and shaping on its own.

"Sacrifice requires the choice to make the sacrifice,"

Complete bs.

Sacrific requires something to sacrific for not a choice.

If your is an situation that everyone will die if you don't die and you let yourself die...That is a sacrific.


Hell, I 'll give you an example....Startrek 2. In the  end of the movie the ship about to blow up and the only way to stop it was to go into the highly radiated engine room and the two people there, Spock and Kirt, had no lead ed suit to use...Spock went in, turn off the engine of the ship and died...

That is not a sacrific....His choice were to let every one die, have him self die or let his friend die.. 
Shepard's choice in ME3 were to let every one die(refuse), have him/herself die(control, synthesis.) or let his friend and allies die(EDI and the geth.)
How is that less of a sacrific then Spock's?

Saying you don't have a choice not  sacrific makes it not a sacrific is bs. If there is an easy way out of those hard choice, you would take it...There would be no need to sacrific if it can be done in a way to not sacrific.

[Storin]

Mike1220 wrote...

@drayfish thanks. I respect the people who don't like it but Im just voicing my opinion and wanted to see if anyone thought like I did and not be bashed for it lol

Empirical evidence suggests you do not. You said that those who disagree with you "can't see the big picture", and you began this thread with a quote by someone utterly dismissing the intelligence of those who dislike the ending. These are not the actions of someone who respects differences of opinion.

[dreman9999]

crimzontearz wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

No and we were promised an array of VERY DIFFERENT endings and that our choices would matter in OUR story. That is what I paid for but never was given

We have 9 different recults of the ending choices.
 4 for destroy. 3 for control. 1 for refuse and 1 for synthesis. All based on EMS. We were never promised a kill all reapers without sacrific and Shepard lives ending.

I would GLADLY sacrifice earth, the geth, the quarians, the Normandy's crew and half the sentient life of the galaxy to have a Shepard lives + reunion ending. That enough sacrifice to be approved by you? Enough to pass the test of maturity?


 
According to the polls that is what a lot odlf people wanted but all we got was more speculation and apparently the reaffirmation that we paid for a lesson in the darkness of life and whatever other grimdark mature theme they wanted to school us on.  That's fine, you are right we were never promised a happy ending...I never promised them to buy another new game from them, hopefully enough will so the same do  Bioware will actually be dissolved and their manpower repurposed.

Then pick destory and head cannon the reunion. BW never made a promise to make a reunion. The ending is open end enough for you to come up with it on your own.

[dreman9999]

clennon8 wrote...

No. The endings suck balls. Those of you who are like "Oh, the sacrifice! I are moved!" and therefore think the endings aren't objectively horrible are wrong.

You have yet to say how we are wrong. Is there not a sacrific of Shepards life or the geths life in the ending?

[JBPBRC]

Bester76 wrote...

There's only one sacrifice at the end of ME3 - That of Marauder Shields. Honour his sacrifice.....

HE FIGHTS FOR US!

[crimzontearz]

dreman9999 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

No and we were promised an array of VERY DIFFERENT endings and that our choices would matter in OUR story. That is what I paid for but never was given

We have 9 different recults of the ending choices.
 4 for destroy. 3 for control. 1 for refuse and 1 for synthesis. All based on EMS. We were never promised a kill all reapers without sacrific and Shepard lives ending.

I would GLADLY sacrifice earth, the geth, the quarians, the Normandy's crew and half the sentient life of the galaxy to have a Shepard lives + reunion ending. That enough sacrifice to be approved by you? Enough to pass the test of maturity?


 
According to the polls that is what a lot odlf people wanted but all we got was more speculation and apparently the reaffirmation that we paid for a lesson in the darkness of life and whatever other grimdark mature theme they wanted to school us on.  That's fine, you are right we were never promised a happy ending...I never promised them to buy another new game from them, hopefully enough will so the same do  Bioware will actually be dissolved and their manpower repurposed.

Then pick destory and head cannon the reunion. BW never made a promise to make a reunion. The ending is open end enough for you to come up with it on your own.

headcanon is only one step removed from delusion


 
I'll just vote with my wallet and hopefully the wallet of every person I will ever convince not to buy their games

[dreman9999]

crimzontearz wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

No and we were promised an array of VERY DIFFERENT endings and that our choices would matter in OUR story. That is what I paid for but never was given

We have 9 different recults of the ending choices.
 4 for destroy. 3 for control. 1 for refuse and 1 for synthesis. All based on EMS. We were never promised a kill all reapers without sacrific and Shepard lives ending.

I would GLADLY sacrifice earth, the geth, the quarians, the Normandy's crew and half the sentient life of the galaxy to have a Shepard lives + reunion ending. That enough sacrifice to be approved by you? Enough to pass the test of maturity?


 
According to the polls that is what a lot odlf people wanted but all we got was more speculation and apparently the reaffirmation that we paid for a lesson in the darkness of life and whatever other grimdark mature theme they wanted to school us on.  That's fine, you are right we were never promised a happy ending...I never promised them to buy another new game from them, hopefully enough will so the same do  Bioware will actually be dissolved and their manpower repurposed.

Then pick destory and head cannon the reunion. BW never made a promise to make a reunion. The ending is open end enough for you to come up with it on your own.

headcanon is only one step removed from delusion


 
I'll just vote with my wallet and hopefully the wallet of every person I will ever convince not to buy their games

Too bad people are still buying there games and dlc.

[ElementL09]

Understanding the meaing sacrifice isn't the main point of the ending. In my playthrough, the people Shepard talk too on side missions sacrificed, Mordin Sacrificed his life to cure the Genophage, Legion Sacrificed his life for the Geth consensus (and Shepard even sacrificed his life at the beginning on Mass Effect 2, and some alliance ships are/ can be sacrificed at the end of Mass Effect). Sacrifice has been apart of the Mass Effect universe, but it isn't the main point of the ending.

[hukbum]

@dreman9999: You're sure you're ok with the endings? 'Cause I get the funny feeling you just found something new to hate

[gremorylore]

dreman9999 wrote...

The point is to do waht ever it takes to stop an unstoppable force, not stay true to you morals. If stopping the reaper means sacrificing your morals then so be it. No one will be happy that they are dieing off because you had to stay true to your morals...That 's egotisical.

Maybe. But at the end I have no real facts in order to face those choice.
The antagonist poorly explain them and it surely can't be trusted.
I can't risk to take the wrong choice. There is no turning back. And I simply cannot see what will be in the future, nor I will be there to see it. 

I have nothing but my own ideas (again, this is an rpg remember), Shepard is also already dieying. I'm sure about my ideals and I'm sure they are shared. Even the Geth are out there to be willingly and proudly butchered. They are all together, confirming that what I think ("believe") is the right thing.
I will die and let the opportunity to all the others to either die free as well or to be able to win (if this is the case) in an horable way, in a self deterministic way (a key point of the entire saga plot).

Ultimately I have to deal with my own Self, as I am responsible of myself before the others. All the single being should. And again, if I betray myself how can I deal with others? More should I to betray myself at the end?
The endings pushed too much, too hard on that, therefore this can be also part of their unhappy reception (to say it politely)

[Fades56]

dreman9999 wrote...

Fades56 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Fades56 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Fades56 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

hukbum wrote...

A youtube user wrote...

In the end, you save the galaxy and let all beings be as they
have always been.
You pick how you want to live and be remembered by."

Not in the game I've played ...  maybe he's got a diffrent copy?


Edit: Fixed the quote.

So in the end of ME3, everyone died or did not rebuild the galexy and live happy because of Shepards sacrific?

Your kind of implying Shep had a way out, no sacrifice in the end just choosing the way you want to die, DAO had an Ok version of how a hero could sacrifice themselves for the betterment of everyone else, this only gives you different choices as to how you want to die.

Don'tbring DAO into this. We don't even know the results of the actions of the ending yet. For all we know it just means living long enoughto have something worse happen. It just a happy ending for now.

K just meant they actually implemented a better use of choosing a Hero's sacrifice, letting someone else take the sacrifice or making a deal with a witch, kind of challenges your morals there and you know what gonna happen, here I know that Shep lives in HIgh Ems destroy, buit really was that made clear that you live by anything before you make the choice, nope just that you manage to finally get rid of the reapers by shooting through our own allies, but yeah just all suicide from the choices we are given and how you want to die, just my opinion.

Destroy high ems destroy has all synthetic life make the sacrific while your Shepard lives. And it matter not if it was made clear.

It kind of does, otherwise they are all death, death, and death with a chance of surviving, and the so called sacrifice of synthetic life just seems empty if you destroyed the geth on Rannoch or if they can be rebuilt all be rebuilt.

You don't like EDI?

No, she's alright i do consider AI's alive and all that, but i'm saying in order to make it feel like an actual sacrifice they have to matter to you in some way, or else it's like me giving up one of my socks to end a great evil, if your distant from what is being given up or used as a price for a specific ending it doesn't even phase you, it's like meh i really didn't care about it in the first place so no problem, now if earth was the cost then it would actually feel like a cost, destroy our home, but save everyone else or something similar so it would be a sacrifice no matter what- just my thoughts on destroys price.

[ld1449]

dreman9999 wrote...

ld1449 wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

no, oh and I have one friend who liked the ending, he didn't love it but he didn't hate it either. Everyone else I know didn't like the ending.

That should tell you something.

The ending is not deep, its not meaningful. Its not even poignant. Its pointless and is merely the most incompetent and moronically elaborate way I've ever seen to simply kill off a character. Because that's really ALL they did. They killed Shepard off. Sacrifice requires the choice to make the sacrifice, the ability to say no and the availability of survivability. Shepard does not have that. Which is why it will always be an authors will enforced on the plot, rather than the plot evolving and shaping on its own.

"Sacrifice requires the choice to make the sacrifice,"

Complete bs.

Sacrific requires something to sacrific for not a choice.

If your is an situation that everyone will die if you don't die and you let yourself die...That is a sacrific.


Hell, I 'll give you an example....Startrek 2. In the  end of the movie the ship about to blow up and the only way to stop it was to go into the highly radiated engine room and the two people there, Spock and Kirt, had no lead ed suit to use...Spock went in, turn off the engine of the ship and died...

That is not a sacrific....His choice were to let every one die, have him self die or let his friend die.. 
Shepard's choice in ME3 were to let every one die(refuse), have him/herself die(control, synthesis.) or let his friend and allies die(EDI and the geth.)
How is that less of a sacrific then Spock's?

Saying you don't have a choice not  sacrific makes it not a sacrific is bs. If there is an easy way out of those hard choice, you would take it...There would be no need to sacrific if it can be done in a way to not sacrific.

Spock could have tried to run, give into fear, made Kirk go in there, try to reach an escape pod. It was an option unlikely to succeed but it was an option.

Shepard doesn't even have the vague option of running away. Spock chose to walk into that room. Shepard does not have a choice. He knows that with the way things are set up sword can't beat the reapers, he knows that not using the crucible means the death of everyone. Given the fact that all options presented to him imply death on each description, he had no choice but to die. He just had to choose how to die. There's a difference.

If I told you. You have a deadly disease. You're going to die from it. There's no cure and nothing that can save you. Your wife has contracted the disease. You're both going to die. You in five minutes, her in five hours.

If you kill yourself though, your wife will be magically cured.

Is this a sacrifice? Not really. This is you dying since you're going to Die ANYWAY to avoid one other person's death. Death is coming for you you just expedited the procedure so someone else wouldn't have to die.

If however I say you have a disease that's contagious. You and your wife have it. If one of you dies, the other party is cured and you yourself take that one bullet and put it in your head rather than hers that's a sacrifice.

Shepards choices all equate to his death, he knows that even refusing will lead to death. Which is why his sacrifice is less than spocks. Because spock, at the end of the movie, hell, throughout the entire movie had the option of saying "****it" at the very least. Shepard doesn't even have that open to him.

This is throwing a tied up Shepard into a volcano to keep the plannet from exploding, rather than Shepard willingly jumping in there to keep the volcano magically stable for another 1000 years