i'm pretty sure the poor devs are headbanging the walls right now
snap ou of it people, nothing changed you posting videos will never be as accurate as devs tests either (not even remotely close) and so far all your vids failed to prove anything
whatever is making you feel that way now, it lies somewhere in the patch note or/and in the DLC's additions
Not only wrong, but wrong with video proof from multiple sources.
It's pretty cear that benchtesting and then looking at code resolves isn't going to accomplish anything anyway, because it's clearly a multistate issue due to effect inconsistency.
"In another thread someone with a Blue Tag said the Vanguard Glitch was fixed by making the Host calculations take precedence over the player, so maybe the whole situation is the Host telling us we are dead, that we didn't dodge all those shots, making techniques like strafing useless on non host?"
I have a feeling this is the case. I've just spent some time hosting solo games against reaper, starting at Bronze, Silver then Gold.
I took the toughest char I have, my level 19 Kroguard to Firebase Jade to take on the first wave and see what happened. I used no gear at all and I had 1850 health and barrier and I didn't use my Barrier power for any extra protection.
Bronze: The firstwave only spawns about 6-7 Cannibals and I lasted a total of 14 seconds from the first shot fired at me (I was not fighting back). I'd soloed bronze before I thought of trying this with the Stronghold V gear, Cyclonic modulator 4 and Barrier on and the poor Cannibals couldn't beat my shields down.
Silver: About the same number of Cannibals as well as a marauder and a couple of husks. Killed the Husks as they are a nuisance. I think only 3 cannibals and possibly the Marauder were shooting me so I may have lasted slightly a fraction longer because of this. Time survived. 10 seconds.
Gold: I got shot and melee'd by 2 cannibals and went down in 4 seconds.
I've repeated these tests several times and from what I have seen it looks as though the host/vanguard glitch fix seems the most probable cause and explains why unhosted games can vary so much. As for when it occurs on host, I honestly don't know.
I think it needs to be seen if the vanguard glitch patch can be rolled back and if it makes a difference.
It happened all the time during my Platinum solos while getting Lone Wolf. Being the host is irrelevant. It it still happens, about thirty times a match due to platinum volleys. You can also see vorcha wipes on a recurring basis now, which was hardly ever the case before, whether it's backed by metrics or not is irrelevant. It's visually obvious and occurs over and over.
They've already stated they aren't messing with us.
But they've also stated that they can't find a problem. I've had many instances just in the last few hours where my shield has been up, maybe at 25% or something, and then all of a sudden I'll take a ton of damage with no shield gate pause and I'll just go down.
just sink in your mind that there is NO pause even Bronze is 0.5s
gold is 0.1s .......... 100ms, that is something a human being playing a game cannot measure, even if you were not playing a game and were fully focused on measuring, you couldn't grasp the duration of 0.1s
+ there are many factors you didn't say in your post , like was the shield gate on cooldown, what character were you, what dificulty ecetera
1. Maybe you can't but most people are used to there being a pause, however brief, between the time the shield fails and you start taking health damage. That pause is often just long enough to get back into cover, take out the enemy shooting you, cast biotic charge and get your barrier restored, etc.
2. I'm aware of the shield gate cooldown. It wasn't a factor. My character build is: http://narida.pytalh...9@0XE@@L4`0@0@0 Difficulty was silver and then, later, gold. The first time it happened today, I was playing silver against collectors on condor, and the next round had just begun. I charged a scion, and from the moment I 'landed', I went from full (1850) health and (2050) shield to laying on the ground faster than you can say 'splat'.
Ok I've listened to this about 20 times now and I cannot hear this shield break sound over the guy talking. Can you find a better example? Also I don't understand why you are getting your pants in a knot, 4 seconds seems to match the time it took for me to be taken out vs reapers on gold.
The animation my not be an exact representation of shields going down but there is a difference between someone hosting a game and losing your shields and having time time to try and dive for cover (yes I know he was a turian) and another self hosted game and both health and shields dissapearing at the same time. Maybe its down to the performance of the machine its played on and sure its not a huge difference but there is a percieved difference and that is what people are seeing in those videos.
Personally I'm now more inclined to believe there is a host/player laag issue that has in someway been exacerbated by the recent patch/dlc and is causing people to get smashed before they really have the time to react as they used to.
Going purely on the Animations of Health and shields dropping there is roughly a 2.5 second percieved difference. I suspect the Sentinal may may well have had his tech armour specced for damage resistance which may also explane the disparity.
Dunno I can hear it just fine, it happens right before the turian says "WOUNDED", which is the second indication that the shield just went down, it's like how other classes say: "shields down!". For a transcript:
XCal:"..I don't even think..." Looks at cannibals XCal:"..Oh my go*SHIELDGATE**SHIELD BREAKS FX*ood." Turian:"WOUNDED" XCal:" I'm getting surrou*HEALTHGATE**DEATH*nded...teammates...just nowhere to be seen".
Starting from the Shield breaking, it takes less than 2 seconds for him to die, and that's with Tech armour and turian health/shield buff.
And for people debating whether or no 100ms can be reacted to, you can't; some of the fastest human brains on the planet still need 150ms to react to stimuli.:
"Mean RT for college-age individuals is about 160 milliseconds to detect an auditory stimulus, and approximately 190 milliseconds to detect visual stimulus.[2] The mean reaction times for sprinters at the Beijing Olympics were 166 ms for males and 189 ms for females, but in one out of 1,000 starts they can achieve 109 ms and 121 ms, respectively".
I do hope the devs are continuing to investigate. I've died with a freaking Kroguard lately, and that's just unacceptable. In all seriousness, though, enemies with fully-automatic weapons are mysteriously downing all of us at unprecedented rates, and the only thing that seems to make sense is that health and shield gates are not working properly in some circumstances.
My suspicion is that the gates work just fine for single shot weapons (Nemesis, Ravager etc) but with rapidfire mooks something is just off
I agree. Anything with rapid fire takes so many down instantly these days.
The gates are working normally to an extent like the Nemesis. I remember reading someone's suspicions about the gate only working against the enemy who triggered it, and I think they have some merit. I noticed a single Nemesis shot will drop shields or drop to a sliver of health. However, when shot by multiple Nemesis it worked differently. 2 at once dropped me to a sliver of health (1 stopped at shield gate, other stopped at health gate). With no shields, 2 at once downed me. It seemed like 1 shot stopped at health gate, and the other finished me off.
I have no acess to the numbers to see if that actually happened that way, and the gate timing seems too short to demonstrate lack of gate protection from back to back shots in game. This is just an idea of where to look for the problem.
As an addendum to my last post:
That 0.1 seconds is there to protect you against that one giant hit that might result in instant death.
To further break it down, if a phantom and marauder are firing at you and the phantom puts you at health gate, the marauder fire won't harm you if it hits 99ms after the phantom.
BUT since they fire in rapid succession, it might be hitting you at 76, 93 and 102ms; the first two shots won't harm you cause the gates are still protecting you, but that hit at 102ms will kill you.
The only reason this seems like an instant kill is because, when 2 or 3 enemies are rapid firing, they are probably hitting you at 90, 93, 95, 97, 99 and 101ms.
Also the gates need a couple of seconds to recharge; 4 seconds for shields, 3 seconds for health.
Ok I've listened to this about 20 times now and I cannot hear this shield break sound over the guy talking. Can you find a better example? Also I don't understand why you are getting your pants in a knot, 4 seconds seems to match the time it took for me to be taken out vs reapers on gold.
The animation my not be an exact representation of shields going down but there is a difference between someone hosting a game and losing your shields and having time time to try and dive for cover (yes I know he was a turian) and another self hosted game and both health and shields dissapearing at the same time. Maybe its down to the performance of the machine its played on and sure its not a huge difference but there is a percieved difference and that is what people are seeing in those videos.
Personally I'm now more inclined to believe there is a host/player laag issue that has in someway been exacerbated by the recent patch/dlc and is causing people to get smashed before they really have the time to react as they used to.
Going purely on the Animations of Health and shields dropping there is roughly a 2.5 second percieved difference. I suspect the Sentinal may may well have had his tech armour specced for damage resistance which may also explane the disparity.
Dunno I can hear it just fine, it happens right before the turian says "WOUNDED", which is the second indication that the shield just went down, it's like how other classes say: "shields down!". For a transcript:
XCal:"..I don't even think..." Looks at cannibals XCal:"..Oh my go*SHIELDGATE**SHIELD BREAKS FX*ood." Turian:"WOUNDED" XCal:" I'm getting surrou*HEALTHGATE**DEATH*nded...teammates...just nowhere to be seen".
Starting from the Shield breaking, it takes less than 2 seconds for him to die, and that's with Tech armour and turian health/shield buff.
And for people debating whether or no 100ms can be reacted to, you can't; some of the fastest human brains on the planet still need 150ms to react to stimuli.:
"Mean RT for college-age individuals is about 160 milliseconds to detect an auditory stimulus, and approximately 190 milliseconds to detect visual stimulus.[2] The mean reaction times for sprinters at the Beijing Olympics were 166 ms for males and 189 ms for females, but in one out of 1,000 starts they can achieve 109 ms and 121 ms, respectively".
Ok I think we're perhaps over debating this point but I've listened to both and I think I hear it now, its kind of a "pchoo-fizzle" of the shield going and breaking. Now in the Untitled.MP4 video you hear the shield go and a fraction of a second later the turian says bleeding out where as Xcal had roughly 2-3 seconds from his shield starting to go down while he is looking at the banshee to hearing his shield gate breaking and getting mushed.
The problem with comparing these is that we don't knw the relative health and shield values of the 2 characters, what gear was being used what spec they had, how many mobs were shooting at them so really we can't draw an accurate conclusion comparing these videos.
In short neither of these videos definitively prove anything.
His shield starting to go down is not where you need to start measuring, cause obviously gates have nothing to do with shields or health that are being damaged before hitting 1% left.
The measuring point is when the shields break, that sound is the indication your 0.1s of godhood has kicked in.
Xcal was being shot at by 2 cannibals, the other video had 3 cannibals...I think we can fairly conclude that 0.1 seconds is not going to save you in either case, he just died quicker because eating much more damage and not having tech armour.
Again, gates are for 1 big hit, 100ms is nothing to rapid fire, let alone from 3 targets.
This thread is incredible! It's truly a study on the behavior of people in groups. The employees of Bioware have shown that they truly care about this community and what they think, and I for one would like to applaud them.
I have no idea why people suddenly started whining about the fictional removal of shield gate. I never noticed it, never even considered it until I saw a million threads popping up about it. The only explanation:
Utter garbage. The game DOES require MORE consumables and players DO die considerably more often--post DLC. Whining??? What an idiotic and insultive thing to say. Surprised at you Sclera.
This thread is incredible! It's truly a study on the behavior of people in groups. The employees of Bioware have shown that they truly care about this community and what they think, and I for one would like to applaud them.
As an addendum to my last post: That 0.1 seconds is there to protect you against that one giant hit that might result in instant death. To further break it down, if a phantom and marauder are firing at you and the phantom puts you at health gate, the marauder fire won't harm you if it hits 99ms after the phantom.
BUT since they fire in rapid succession, it might be hitting you at 76, 93 and 102ms; the first two shots won't harm you cause the gates are still protecting you, but that hit at 102ms will kill you. The only reason this seems like an instant kill is because, when 2 or 3 enemies are rapid firing, they are probably hitting you at 90, 93, 95, 97, 99 and 101ms.
Also the gates need a couple of seconds to recharge; 4 seconds for shields, 3 seconds for health.
That is all nice and well, it doesn't explain some things though. First of all, there is a bronze test video somewhere in here, and there is clearly no .5 second protection to be observed (.5 seconds is the supposed gatetime for bronze according to Eric) Also, and I worte that earlier already, my Batarian got oneshot by a Scion today...on Silver. That was that one giant hit the healthgate is supposed to protect me from. My shield was down (another source) but I still had full health (1275 health) + 35% damage protection from Blade Armor. One shot by the Scion --> Batarian in the mud....
His shield starting to go down is not where you need to start measuring, cause obviously gates have nothing to do with shields or health that are being damaged before hitting 1% left.
The measuring point is when the shields break, that sound is the indication your 0.1s of godhood has kicked in. Xcal was being shot at by 2 cannibals, the other video had 3 cannibals...I think we can fairly conclude that 0.1 seconds is not going to save you in either case, he just died quicker because eating much more damage and not having tech armour.
Again, gates are for 1 big hit, 100ms is nothing to rapid fire, let alone from 3 targets.
Apologies its taken me a while to get my head around it but I see where you are coming from now I think The problem that remains is why people in non-gold/platinum games are suddenly dying . Having experienced this only when someone else hosted game maybe we need to see what else other than gates could be attributed to the sudden deaths. I still feel like their maybe some connection with the patch to fix the vanguard glitch and whatever the issue may be its being felt by more people who maybe didn't play after the patch and before the DLC was released?
UpirNoir wrote... That is all nice and well, it doesn't explain some things though. First of all, there is a bronze test video somewhere in here, and there is clearly no .5 second protection to be observed (.5 seconds is the supposed gatetime for bronze according to Eric) Also, and I worte that earlier already, my Batarian got oneshot by a Scion today...on Silver. That was that one giant hit the healthgate is supposed to protect me from. My shield was down (another source) but I still had full health (1275 health) + 35% damage protection from Blade Armor. One shot by the Scion --> Batarian in the mud....
I'd like to see that Bronze video. Also in the games you mention were you hosting?
I'd like to see that Bronze video. Also in the games you mention were you hosting?
Here ya go, Anagorrax. The second test seems to demonstrate no shieldgate.
ParanoidDrone wrote...
I realized that fairly quickly, but I went ahead with it anyway FOR SCIENCE and all that jazz. Here's the link.
[EDIT: I just realized that I derped hard and forgot to chop off the blankness at the end when splicing it all together. Oh well.]
I used a Human Male Infiltrator with 0 points in Fitness and no consumables or gear, so I had 500/500 shields/health. I started a private lobby for Glacier/Reapers/Bronze and killed Cannibals in the first wave until the announcer said there was only one left. I then stood in the open and let it shoot me to death.
It's late here and I'm too tired to analyze my own data (pitiful, I know), but it's there for others to take a look at.
UpirNoir wrote... That is all nice and well, it doesn't explain some things though. First of all, there is a bronze test video somewhere in here, and there is clearly no .5 second protection to be observed (.5 seconds is the supposed gatetime for bronze according to Eric) Also, and I worte that earlier already, my Batarian got oneshot by a Scion today...on Silver. That was that one giant hit the healthgate is supposed to protect me from. My shield was down (another source) but I still had full health (1275 health) + 35% damage protection from Blade Armor. One shot by the Scion --> Batarian in the mud....
I'd like to see that Bronze video. Also in the games you mention were you hosting?
EDIT: sorry double post
There you go The first test, everything seems fine, but the second is interesting, because there is clearly no .5 second break between shield getting broken and health taking damage
No, on these games I played today I was not hosting
Hmm its a tough call but it is multiple shots and I think that is likely the cause since it was not one big hit and it certainly didn't drop him from from full health and/or shields to dead which I have experienced on Silver matches.
I think what is being expected is immunity after the initial damage that breaks the shield where as what seems to be the case is that the first hit of rapid fire would not cut into your health but because of the nature of the rapid fire the follwing hits do not have their damage negated making it seem like the gate isn't triggering.
I think mainly what is being experienced is caused when you arent hosting the match.
The new "you die instantly if your health is exposed" mechanic is blatantly obvious to anyone who either:
* Played Vorcha * Played Krogans * Played Batarians * Played Turians
These guys were the most durable of the set. You played them specifically BECAUSE of this durability; a Kroguard, Kroldier, or Krosent, kitted out, could survive anything gold and beyond could throw at them, and the combination of your high shield+health and DR meant you reliably survived many battlefield situations. Batarians were no less durable after buffs, and Vorcha were entirely centered around the mechanic of regenerating health based on how quickly you dropped enemies.
Nowadays, DR is borderline-meaningless for health. The second your shields are down, any enemy - a Marauder, a cannibal or two, a Geth Trooper, an uppity Cerberus Trooper - all can kill you in only 1 or 2 bursts the second your health is vulnerable, DR and sheer HP level notwithstanding. We're at the point where I've stopped seeing defensive builds entirely, because it doesn't reliably add enough survivability to overshadow the myriad benefits of going for raw offense.
On the plus side, this has caused variation of tactics. On the downside, it means that Fitness, on many skill trees, just got made a whole lot worse, and group survivability has nosedived.
This is a major issue. The entire reason to play durable races is halfway to becoming a moot point now, since Health increasingly does not matter. Whilst we do not know the cause yet, the commonalities players are reporting, even with variance for platform, are all-too-similar.
Something, clearly, is wrong.
Yup, def builds became obsolete for me. I started scrapping fitness entirely actually and just focused on maximum offence. It's now about killing the enemy the fastest way possible. High dps is now desirable, instead of a good mix between survivability and offensive capabilites.
bclagge wrote...
This thread is incredible! It's truly a study on the behavior of people in groups. The employees of Bioware have shown that they truly care about this community and what they think, and I for one would like to applaud them.
hmm its a tough call but it is multiple shots and I think that is likely the cause since it was not one big hit and it certainly didn't drop him from from full health and/or shields to dead which I have experienced on Silver matches. I think what is being expected is immunity after the initial damage that breaks the shield where as what seems to be the case is that the first hit of rapid fire would not cut into your health but because of the nature of the rapid fire the follwing hits do not have their damage negated making it seem like the gate isn't triggering.
Yes, there two different issues here. The big dmg hit and the rapidfire. So to clear things up: This bronze video along with the couple of Gold videos (including mine) are about rapidfire weapons. This bronze video shows that there is some inconsistency. Because the first test, the gates are cleary working and the second test, there just is no .5 second dmg protection after the shields are broken. The other thing is what people have observed with the big hits. Like my Scion experience today. Again there just seems to be some inconsistency, because sometimes the gates worked fine for me. I could clearly observe them working when a Ravager shot me today. In fact, the health gate saved my butt there. But sometimes a single shot kills you from full health.
Its that single shot problem that seems to be caused off host and I'm going to say is either something to do with the Vanguard giltch fix or some kind of server problem. As for the rapid fire, well I'm not convinced that its so much of a problem, though it might just be something I didn't notice until the past few days.
This thread is incredible! It's truly a study on the behavior of people in groups. The employees of Bioware have shown that they truly care about this community and what they think, and I for one would like to applaud them.
FFS, if you are not having problems, good for you, but many of us are.
I experienced a problem and came to BSN to see if anyone else was having the same issues, which they are.
If you have nothing helpful to contribute then take your useless troll comments elsewhere.
Bone3ater wrote...
I would love to see your hopefully very extensive study on the problem we might be experiencing and of course your research about Collective hysteria.
I am very curious about seeing your results.
I'm merely an observer. No need for me to do research - Bioware seems to have that pretty well under control. I'm not saying there's not a problem. That remains to be seen. But every day there's threads about how there was a ninja-buff by BW because all of a sudden the OP can't survive Silver/Gold anymore. It's always just a case of someone having a bad day and wanting to blame the game. Don't tell me you haven't seen that, because if you read these forums you know it's true.
So IF a real problem actually exists, I suspect that's it's only for a small percentage of those complaining and that the rest are people who can't handle the dynamic of the new units and are suffering from mass hysteria - eager to jump on some explanation as to why they're having a bad day.
So to you and everyone else in this thread, I am saying that the evidence suggests there's a solid likelihood that the problem is in fact between the keyboard and the chair. I could be wrong, and I will be intently watching from the sidelines. I hope everyone's issues get resolved.
So IF a real problem actually exists, I suspect that's it's only for a small percentage of those complaining and that the rest are people who can't handle the dynamic of the new units and are suffering from mass hysteria - eager to jump on some explanation as to why they're having a bad day.
Except there are those of us that first started to see strange things happening immediately after the patch and before the DLC.
Everyone keeps blaming Bioware for the DLC/characters making things more difficult but that's a red herring. None of the lowest of the troops were changed in any faction and its those peons that seem to be giving us grief lately.
The Collectors (Dragoons, Bombers) are powerful, that's true. But that has little to do with the mysterious deaths we've been seeing. Admittedly it does muddy the waters, which is unfortunate.
This thread is incredible! It's truly a study on the behavior of people in groups. The employees of Bioware have shown that they truly care about this community and what they think, and I for one would like to applaud them.
FFS, if you are not having problems, good for you, but many of us are.
I experienced a problem and came to BSN to see if anyone else was having the same issues, which they are.
If you have nothing helpful to contribute then take your useless troll comments elsewhere.
Bone3ater wrote...
I would love to see your hopefully very extensive study on the problem we might be experiencing and of course your research about Collective hysteria.
I am very curious about seeing your results.
I'm merely an observer. No need for me to do research - Bioware seems to have that pretty well under control. I'm not saying there's not a problem. That remains to be seen. But every day there's threads about how there was a ninja-buff by BW because all of a sudden the OP can't survive Silver/Gold anymore. It's always just a case of someone having a bad day and wanting to blame the game. Don't tell me you haven't seen that, because if you read these forums you know it's true.
So IF a real problem actually exists, I suspect that's it's only for a small percentage of those complaining and that the rest are people who can't handle the dynamic of the new units and are suffering from mass hysteria - eager to jump on some explanation as to why they're having a bad day.
So to you and everyone else in this thread, I am saying that the evidence suggests there's a solid likelihood that the problem is in fact between the keyboard and the chair. I could be wrong, and I will be intently watching from the sidelines. I hope everyone's issues get resolved.
That would be a logical conclusion, save for one simple fallacy: Among those reporting the issue, the same problems are quickly falling in line with one another.
I've invested over 280 hours into this game, playing heavily using high-durability classes like the Kroldier and Krosent. I'm acutely aware of how quickly I went down from a situation that went against me back before Retaliation, and how quickly I did after.
I recall a time when I could dance the line on health and shields when fighting a single Geth Prime, keeping it tied up in close-combat for the until I killed it or got bored, even with its helpers. Nowadays I'm likely to be torn apart doing that.
Retour en haut
The problem that remains is why people in non-gold/platinum games are suddenly dying . Having experienced this only when someone else hosted game maybe we need to see what else other than gates could be attributed to the sudden deaths. I still feel like their maybe some connection with the patch to fix the vanguard glitch and whatever the issue may be its being felt by more people who maybe didn't play after the patch and before the DLC was released?
