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[Nemesis Shield]

I was thinking about the Anvil of the Void, and I am a little unsure as to why Caridin and Shale were convinced that it was "evil" and had to be destroyed.

I want to approach this from two angles - what the Anvil of the Void does to the souls of its subjects, and what it does to their bodies. I hope you will see why below.

Maybe I am forgetting some crucial fact from the codex or from the dialogue, but it seemed to me that even though the Anvil trapped the souls of the dwarves in the mechanical bodies of golems, it did not seemed to actually "damage" their souls by erasing their memories, altering their personalities, or anything like that. The way that I remember it, "Shayle" (the dwarf) retained all of her memories and her personality when she became "Shale" (the golem); it was only because of the experiments of that human mage that she forgot everything and basically had her personaity wiped clean. So, the Anvil doesn't seem to "kill" its subjects (by "killing" their souls).

Now, the control rods that were used to control the golems do seem to rob them of their natural free will, but it is unclear to me that all golems had or needed control rods (Caridin did not, for example). The control rods are, I think, morally repugnant, but were they absolutely necessary in the first place? Why did the dwarves think that they needed to use control rods to enslave the golems? It seems to me that the Anvil itself is not the real moral problem, but the control rods, since it is they that actually turn golems into machine-like slaves. Shale seems to be perfectly fine without the control rod, and she seems to have free will and an independent personality.

So, maybe, the objections to the Anvil stem from it does to the bodies of its subjects. It basically turns the dwarves into robots - again, the theme of slavery appears. They stop being dwarves and become machines; they can't have families or do anything else that organic beings do. But, as I remember it, the dwarves that became golems did so out of their own free will because they wanted to defend the dwarven race. They willingly sacrificed themselves for this, and I assume that they knew the consequences of becoming a giant stone or metal Terminator robot. I believe that Caridin said that Shayle (the dwarf) bravely made the necessary sacrifice to become Shale (the golem) because she felt that it was her duty to her people. If she was so eager back then, then why is she so against it now?

So, in conclusion, so long as the dwarves were not forced to become golems AND so long as the control rods were not used to deny them free will and independence, what exactly was so morally wrong about the Anvil of the Void?

If I was a dwarf I would probably not do it, I will admit that right away. But, if some brave soldier wanted to have the body of a Terminator and so long as his or her free will was not denied, I would not be against that. Heck, I would probably honor and respect their courage and sacrifice. The only really bad thing about the golems in that case would be that it does involve a huge cost, in that the subject is essentially giving up their entire natural body. But, if the soul is not "killed" or free will denied, then I guess that someone brave enough should be allowed to go through with it if they really want to.

And, of course, let's not forget that there is a tremendous positive side to having the body of a Terminator: let's be honest, golems are much harder to kill than regular soldiers. A soldier might figure that it would worth giving up his natural body for that (especially if he is a soldier for life and isn't planning on doing anything else anyway). He or she might say that it would be better to give up food, sex, sleep, or whatever to become virtually indestructible. Some people would give anything for immortality (well, "almost" immortality, since golems are not actually invincible, just really, really hard to kill for the most part).

So, is there something that I am misunderstanding or missing? Can you explain why Caridin and Shale so adamantly hated the Anvil of the Void? What was so bad about it?

Modifié par Nemesis Shield, 30 décembre 2009 - 06:39 .

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

Well, ALL Golems had control rods, that is the evil of it. The reason Caridin did not was because only he knew how to make the control rods, so when he was made a golem, he didn't get a control rod, and he realized HE didn't like being a golem with free will, what must the ENSLAVED golems feel? That's the point, that they didn't have free will.



Shale even more so would I think be against it, because she has seen both sides of the coin... having no free will, and then getting her free will back.



Furthermore, look at what they do with the Anvil in the ending if you don't destroy it. They start raiding the surface to kidnap humans and elves to make golems from (at least Harrowmont does, not sure about Bhelen, as I've not sided with him and Branka before). Even in Caridin's time, it's suggested that the casteless were FORCED to be golems, that's really the evil of it. If it could be kept TOTALLY VOLUNTARY it might not be evil, but it can't so it is.

[MorningBird]

You make a good point about the controls rods, and to an extent, I agree with you on that front.  However, I think the reason many people see the Anvil of the Void as evil is not because of how it SHOULD be used, but how it COULD be used, and the Anvil of the Void CAN be used to force a person--against their will, I might add--out of their body and into one of stone or metal.

That was the case with Caridin, and I believe he makes claims that it happened to other dwarves of his time as well.

You have to remember that the Dark Spawn are an ever worsening threat to the dwarves.  Surface dwellers get a nice holiday ever few hundred years from the Dark Spawn.  The dwarves have to live in fear of them constantly.  Even with volunteers, how long would it take before they started using the Anvil as a punishment rather then an opportunity to serve?

Loghain stooped low enough to sell the elves in the Alienage into slavery to fund his war.  Its possible the dwarves would make similar terrible sacrifices if given the Anvil.  Many players believe that allowing the Anvil to remain intact is a risk not worth taking.

If Shale is any bit the patriot Caridin claims her to be, then her duty is to her people, and I doubt she would want to see them forced into servitude where she was given a choice, especially since she is a golem WITH free choice.

My two cents.

Modifié par MorningBird, 30 décembre 2009 - 06:51 .

[Nemesis Shield]

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...

Furthermore, look at what they do with the Anvil in the ending if you don't destroy it. They start raiding the surface to kidnap humans and elves to make golems from (at least Harrowmont does, not sure about Bhelen, as I've not sided with him and Branka before). Even in Caridin's time, it's suggested that the casteless were FORCED to be golems, that's really the evil of it. If it could be kept TOTALLY VOLUNTARY it might not be evil, but it can't so it is.

Okay, see that I did not know, since I did actually destroy the Anvil of the Void (and I haven't finished the game yet).

But, as in the situation with the control rods, it still seems to me that there should be some way for the Anvil to be used ethically. Any weapon can be used unethically - but it can also be used ethically and correctly by the right people. That to me seems more of a problem of people, rather than of the technology itself.

I guess I could make an analogy with nuclear weapons. I believe that nuclear weapons should be rightly regulated and controlled - and actually made completely illegal as actual weapons of war! But, believe it or not, there are still other uses for nukes besides war; for instance, if an asteroid was headed toward the Earth, sending up nuke after nuke to alter its orbit might the only way to save our planet. So, at the very least I want nukes to be completely controlled and regulated, and I would not be against actually dismantling all nukes, but I would still keep the technological knowledge of their construction around, for just such situations. And, of course, the knowledge used to build the nuclear bomb can also give us electrical power!

So, why get rid of the Anvil of the Void? Just use it ethically - only freely willing volunteers and no control rods under any circumstances. Basically, why can't all the golems be like Shale (the way she is now, after the destruction of the control rod)? Shayle (the dwarf) willing made the sacrifice that she thought was necessary to save her people, and without that nefarious control rod she seems perfectly independent and in full control of her free will.

Modifié par Nemesis Shield, 30 décembre 2009 - 07:21 .

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

Nemesis Shield wrote...

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...

Furthermore, look at what they do with the Anvil in the ending if you don't destroy it. They start raiding the surface to kidnap humans and elves to make golems from (at least Harrowmont does, not sure about Bhelen, as I've not sided with him and Branka before). Even in Caridin's time, it's suggested that the casteless were FORCED to be golems, that's really the evil of it. If it could be kept TOTALLY VOLUNTARY it might not be evil, but it can't so it is.

Okay, see that I did not know, since I did actually destroy the Anvil of the Void (and I haven't finished the game yet).

But, as in the situation with the control rods, it still seems to me that there should be some way for the Anvil to be used ethically. Any weapon can be used unethically - but it can also be used ethically and correctly by the right people. That to me seems more of a problem of people, rather than of the technology itself.

I guess I could make an analogy with nuclear weapons. I believe that nuclear weapons should be rightly regulated and controlled - and actually made completely illegal as actual weapons of war! But, believe it or not, there are still other uses for nukes besides war; for instance, if an asteroid was headed toward the Earth, sending up nuke after nuke to alter its orbit might they only way to save our planet. So, at the very least I want nukes to be completely controlled and regulated, and I would not be against actually dismantling all nukes, but I would still keep the technological knowledge of their construction around, for just such situations. And, of course, the knowledge used to build the nuclear bomb can also give us electrical power!

Yes, but unfortunately humans (and apparently fantasy dwarves too) can't be trusted with such power.  Humans nature is to find new ways to wage war.

[Realmzmaster]

The problem with the Anvil is the same as any other weapon in the wrong hands it is subject to abuse. The problem with the anvil is that it strips away the subjects "humanity". If a control rod is built the golem free will is stripped away. The golem has no control and must obey even when everything in its being says it should not. Also what is to stop the dwarven race from turning their creations on the surface folks?

[Nemesis Shield]

I guess that I am an optimist and that I think that it is possible to control and use weapons in an ethical manner.

Maybe that's the problem - I would not expect the dwarves to succumb to temptation and enslave people to become golems. Maybe I have too high an opinion of them. They did create the control rods to begin with, so maybe that is indeed proof that they can't be trusted with the Anvil ever again.

But, on the other hand, maybe they could also have been given a second chance to learn from the mistakes of the past.... this time, they might not have created the control rods.

I am assuming you see that control rods are not actually necessary at all, since Shale is currently fine without one. That's my point, without the control rod, the Anvil does not deny anyone their "humanity" ("dwarvanity"?), and a golem could retain their independent free will and spirit. And, then, I am assuming that people can overcome those temptations to abuse the Anvil in an unethical manner....

Modifié par Nemesis Shield, 30 décembre 2009 - 07:13 .

[Kepha]

Even assuming that everyone truly is a volunteer, apparently being made into a golem is a very painful process for the "volunteer" in question.

From Caridin's Journal Codex Entry

I have asked for volunteers. Some few answered, men of the Warrior Caste, younger sons with no property, no chance for marriage. They want to defend Orzammar from the horrors these humans have unleashed. They want to live forever in a body stronger than the finest armor. They do not ask to speak with those who have gone before.

I have put off saying this, even in these pages. But I must say it now. My golems will be powered by their deaths. These brave warriors come to me, naked as the day they were born. I dress them in a skin of armor, so large it makes the burliest look no more than a babe, the anvil their first and final cradle. We are surrounded by a mile of earth on all sides. No one hears the screams as I pour molten lyrium through the eyeholes, the mouth, every joint and ****** in the armor. They silence quickly, but the smell lingers, just a trace of blood in the greater stench of hot metal. I must work fast. The armor is malleable now, as I shape it with hammer and tongs.

It is not long before it moves beneath my hands, writhing and twisting with every blow. It speaks again now, a low moan, but I have learned to tune it out. I can afford no error in this craft. There can be no melted slag blinding the eyes, nor an unhewn bit of granite shackling the leg. They groan at my work, but would they rather be broken, crippled? Those I have spoken to tell me of the pain, but could they see themselves, they would see perfection.

Modifié par Kepha, 30 décembre 2009 - 07:20 .

[Ulrik the Slayer]

Kepha wrote...

Even assuming that everyone truly is a volunteer, apparently being made into a golem is a very painful process for the "volunteer" in question.

Hehe yeah. The TL; DR version:

They put the dwarf inside the armour which is to be the golem.

They pour hot firey stuff into the armour.

Pound it a few times on the Anvil with a hammer for good measure.

[Nemesis Shield]

Kepha wrote...

Even assuming that everyone truly is a volunteer, apparently being made into a golem is a very painful process for the "volunteer" in question.

Oh, I am not denying that is unimaginably painful (think Wolverine in the new "X-Men Origins: Wolverine" movie). But, if someone is brave enough....

So, long as they are not forced to do make this sacrifice AND so long as no control rod is manufactured later on, I guess that it should be allowed for those courageous few who want to go above and beyond the call of duty to save their people.

Here is a scenario that I would have liked: you are allowed to save the Anvil, but then when you talk with the new king (whoever you choose), you get the option of persuading him to make the creation of a golem a matter of pure free will - only volunteers and no control rods under any circumstances. You might also convince him to make some sort of organization that can monitor the creation and use of golems and ensure that it is lawful and ethical. It could be possible.... in theory....

And, now, for some random humor, since this is such a serious discussion:

And, even though it might be unimaginably painful, remember that pretty much everyone in video games is a pure badass!!! The Anvil would never be used in our real world, but in fantasy and science fiction, every other guy is Chuck Norris..... that's why it is "fantasy" and science "fiction", since in reality, there can only be one single Chuck Norris. But, in Ferelden, every other person is Chuck Norris. Duncan is Chuck Norris, Sten is Chuck Norris, Loghain is Chuck Norris, Commander Shepard is Chuck Norris.....

If Chuck Norris was made into a golem by the Anvil of the Void, he would not feel any pain whatsoever - it would be the Anvil that would feel the pain.....

Modifié par Nemesis Shield, 30 décembre 2009 - 07:29 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

In theory...



The anvil really has a huge potential for abuse. That's what makes it bad.

[Nemesis Shield]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

In theory...

The anvil really has a huge potential for abuse. That's what makes it bad.

So do nukes, but we have managed to successfully regulate and control their use after we saw what they were truly capable of......

And, again, even nukes can be useful, as I mentioned in the asteroid scenario. Getting rid of all nuclear technology is not necessary if we can control our dark side.....

Well, maybe not, if you read the news about Iran and North Korea.... but let's not go there.... at all....

Modifié par Nemesis Shield, 30 décembre 2009 - 07:33 .

[MorningBird]

Nemesis Shield wrote...

So do nukes, but we have managed to successfully regulate and control their use after we saw what they were truly capable of......

And, again, even nukes can be useful, as I mentioned in the asteroid scenario. Getting rid of all nuclear technology is not necessary if we can control our dark side.....

Well, maybe not, if you read the news about Iran and North Korea.... but let's not go there.... at all....

The problem here is that the Dwarves--even with a second chance--proved that they are incapable of weilding the Anvil with wisdom.

Even if you choose to destroy the Anvil, both Harrowmont AND Behlen reclaim the pieces and put it back together, despite the better judgement of both the Warden--the one who crowned them king--and Paragon Caridin--the creator of the Anvil.  The results of their efforts end in many more dwarven lives taken, and the Anvil being locked away for good.

This is the only way I see the Anvil relating to your nuke comparison, in that both we and the dwarves have nukes, but cannot use them for fear of the chaos they might unleash.

[CloudOfShadows]

Nemesis Shield wrote...

And, of course, let's not forget that there is a tremendous positive side to having the body of a Terminator: let's be honest, golems are much harder to kill than regular soldiers. A soldier might figure that it would worth giving up his natural body for that (especially if he is a soldier for life and isn't planning on doing anything else anyway). He or she might say that it would be better to give up food, sex, sleep, or whatever to become virtually indestructible. Some people would give anything for immortality (well, "almost" immortality, since golems are not actually invincible, just really, really hard to kill for the most part).

Imho, that's exactly why the anvil is evil. It's a cheap, and painful (lethal?) way to power. It twists dwarves into something they are not. It's akin to darkspawn in the aspect of being a forced way - the Grey Wardens are the exceptions for the darkspawn. Maybe Shale is an exception for a golem?

[Nemesis Shield]

MorningBird wrote...

The problem here is that the Dwarves--even with a second chance--proved that they are incapable of weilding the Anvil with wisdom.

Even if you choose to destroy the Anvil, both Harrowmont AND Bhelen reclaim the pieces and put it back together, despite the better judgement of both the Warden--the one who crowned them king--and Paragon Caridin--the creator of the Anvil.  The results of their efforts end in many more dwarven lives taken, and the Anvil being locked away for good.

This is the only way I see the Anvil relating to your nuke comparison, in that both we and the dwarves have nukes, but cannot use them for fear of the chaos they might unleash.

Hmmm, but you see, my character did not know that the dwarves would once again abuse the Anvil of the Void and use it unethically..... Now we do know that since we have finished the game (or, rather you have, I haven't), but at the time, giving the dwarves a second chance might have seemed reasonable.

That scenario I suggested, where the PC persuades the king to use the Anvil ethically and to create an organization to enforce its ethical use could be possible, and I kinda wish Bioware had offered it to us.

But, I guess all of this a moot point, since it seems that the dwarves cannot learn to use the Anvil ethically....

This entire discussion is pointless, I guess, since it is obvious that they were not willing to do this.

[amrose2]

It's impossible for the Anvil to be used for good, even if you have a morally just King and a ethical guideline. Why? Because Casteless are not considered dwarves. Think of it similarly to all the horrible things **** Germany did to Jews. These acts were justified because they were not PEOPLE in the eyes of the ****s.

It's the same thing, even with all these guidelines... if you arent' considered a real Dwarf, you don't have the rights of a Dwarf, and are subject to inhumane treatment.


edit apparently N a    z i   is censored. How very stupid

Modifié par amrose2, 30 décembre 2009 - 08:06 .

[MorningBird]

Nemesis Shield wrote...

Hmmm, but you see, my character did not know that the dwarves would once again abuse the Anvil of the Void and use it unethically..... Now we do know that since we have finished the game (or, rather you have, I haven't), but at the time, giving the dwarves a second chance might have seemed reasonable.

That scenario I suggested, where the PC persuades the king to use the Anvil ethically and to create an organization to enforce its ethical use could be possible, and I kinda wish Bioware had offered it to us.

But, I guess all of this a moot point, since it seems that the dwarves cannot learn to use the Anvil ethically....

This entire discussion is pointless, I guess, since it is obvious that they were not willing to do this.

It's perfectly fine if your character did trust the dwarves.  there's no right or wrong way to play the game, after all.  However, whether you put Harrowmont on the throne or Behlen, you can tell fairly early on that neither of them are willing to take anything the Warden has to say under serious consideration.  If you ask Harrowmont to remove the caste system, he will refuse because it will upset the nobles.  If you ask Behlen to spare Harrowmont's life, he'll ignore your plee and execute him anyway.

Both dwarven kings will help you with the Blight, but otherwise view you as serving no role in dwarven affairs.  I suspect that's why BioWare didn't include a 'convince them to use the anvil for good' dialog option.  The dwarves obviously have a different interpretation of 'good' than surfacers.

Sorry if I ruined the ending for you.  By your opening post, I just sort of assumed you'd finished the game, and I apologize.

[Nemesis Shield]

CloudOfShadows wrote...

Imho, that's exactly why the anvil is evil. It's a cheap, and painful (lethal?) way to power. It twists dwarves into something they are not. It's akin to darkspawn in the aspect of being a forced way - the Grey Wardens are the exceptions for the darkspawn. Maybe Shale is an exception for a golem?

Actually, that is a good analogy to the Grey Wardens. They also willingly choose to sacrifice themselves - to drink the darkspawn blood. The Grey Wardens are also "twisted" into something they are not, even though the experience is a hell of a lot less painful (just some really bad dreams).

So long as the dwarves do not force anybody to become a golem, even in dire circumstances, and so long as they do not create any control rods whatsoever, then some really, really brave dwarf might want to go above and beyond the call of duty to save his or her people. If someone wants to be a hero, then maybe they should be allowed to....

An army of purely volunteer golems, acting under their own free will (no control rods)..... that does not seem unethical to me. It would seem very brave and patriotic, almost in the sense of a martyr.....

Well, I think that I have argued over this as much as I am able. In the end, the game does not allow for an ethical use of the Anvil of the Void. The dwarves inevitably abuse it, both in the past and in the future. It is too risky to allow it to exist because of that. I guess that I expected more from the dwarves....

[MorningBird]

Nemesis Shield wrote...

Well, I think that I have argued over this as much as I am able. In the end, the game does not allow for an ethical use of the Anvil of the Void. The dwarves inevitably abuse it, both in the past and in the future. It is too risky to allow it to exist because of that. I guess that I expected more from the dwarves....

I wouldn't say that.  Keep in mind that the ending I gave only occurs if you choose to destroy the Anvil... which means BOTH Paragon Branka and Paragon Caridin are dead, leaving know-nothing dwarves to rebuild the Anvil, which may be why their results were... less than desirable.

I also think that most of the people who have posted so far chose to destroy the anvil in their play throughs.  Wait around until someone who actually sided with Branka shows up, and maybe they'll have a different perspective.

[Nemesis Shield]

MorningBird wrote...

Sorry if I ruined the ending for you.  By your opening post, I just sort of assumed you'd finished the game, and I apologize.

Oh, don't worry that is fine. I don't really mind spoilers. I have only just finished the Orzammar quest, so I did not know what the end game says about what the dwarves actually end up doing with the Anvil (kidnapping and forcing people to become golems and such). I only found that out from reading this discussion. But, that is really what I was looking for.... to know just why the dwarves can't be trusted with the Anvil.... and the end game apparently makes it pretty clear....

I have an inclination to trust dwarves in fantasy games because they are by far my favorite traditional fantasy race, going all the way back to LotR and DnD. Dwarves are usually so stoic and upstanding, even if they are also stubborn and head-strong. Bioware really turned the traditional formula on its head for DA.... kudos to them....

By the way, elves suck, especially elves named Legolas and Drizzt. Dwarves rule, especially dwarves named Gimli and Bruenor.... LOL!

[MorningBird]

Nemesis Shield wrote...

By the way, elves suck, especially elves named Legolas and Drizzt. Dwarves rule, especially dwarves named Gimli and Bruenor.... LOL!

Aww, but I've got a soft spot for Drizzt!  But only Drizzt.  All the other dark elves can go die. >_>

Then again, I also dislike sharks, which is apparently a view not many people share, so what do I know?

[Nemesis Shield]

MorningBird wrote...

I wouldn't say that.  Keep in mind that the ending I gave only occurs if you choose to destroy the Anvil... which means BOTH Paragon Branka and Paragon Caridin are dead, leaving know-nothing dwarves to rebuild the Anvil, which may be why their results were... less than desirable.

I also think that most of the people who have posted so far chose to destroy the anvil in their play throughs.  Wait around until someone who actually sided with Branka shows up, and maybe they'll have a different perspective.

See, Caridin would be the perfect person to have forced dwarven society and leadership to use the Anvil ethically.... but no.... he had to get all whiny and jump off a bridge.... into lava....

If there was one person who could have used the Anvil ethically, it was Caridin. It is tragic really, what he went through and what happened to him.

Then again, he might also be the last person to actually trust the dwarves with the Anvil because of what that king forced him to do long ago (force people to become golems and then create the control rods). Maybe that is why he is so against it - he just does not trust or have any faith in his own people anymore. Very poignant and tragic.... very Shakespearian or Greek tragedy....

Anyway, I actually followed Caridin's advice and destroyed the Anvil of the Void. In the end, he knows his own people better than I do. (But, I was role-playing as a human, which is why I defered to Caridin's better judgment. A dwarf character might have had a different opinion.)

[MatronAdena]

Nemesis Shield wrote...

 Dwarves rule, especially dwarves named Gimli and Bruenor.... LOL!

you must have had a momentary laps in common sense...as you left Flint out of that * nods*