90 réponses à ce sujet

[westiex9]

MorningBird wrote...

Nemesis Shield wrote...

Well, I think that I have argued over this as much as I am able. In the end, the game does not allow for an ethical use of the Anvil of the Void. The dwarves inevitably abuse it, both in the past and in the future. It is too risky to allow it to exist because of that. I guess that I expected more from the dwarves....

I also think that most of the people who have posted so far chose to destroy the anvil in their play throughs.  Wait around until someone who actually sided with Branka shows up, and maybe they'll have a different perspective.

Hi!

okay so i kept the anvil running. Now the fact that the dwarves are facing extinction and the character i was playing was a dwarf had a lot to do with my choice. Lets face it the anvil is a nasty tool which does gruesome things.....but the anvil is the lesser of two evils when you consider the horror of the darkspawn. The anvil is a tool of necessity and needs to be kept running so that the dwarven people will survive.

Now in my human playthrough i sympathised with caridan to some extent and destroyed the anvil, but playing from a dwarven perspective i have re-assesed my opinion of caridan and find his actions more repugnant than even branka's.

i mean look at caridan's history he willingly made countless souls into golems knowing the agony of the process, these golem regiments then guarded orzamarr and the then remaining cities of the dwarves against the darkspawn . then king valthor got annoyed and turned caridan into a golem. only then does he suddenly change his tune and so he takes the anvil and hides it and as a result thousands of dwarves and all the remaining thaigs with the exception of orzammar are destroyed. This fool is no hero he is a murderer!  how does the unpleasant nature of the anvil and its few hundreds of victims  and subjects give him the moral justification to destroy the remainder of the dwarves?

So yes the anvil is an evil process and yes it does horrible things but when your civilisation and species is on the brink you take the lesser evils and you commit every neccessary action to survive, clearly caridan forget this lesson and as a result innocent people suffered for it. So that golem can rust on the ground where i broke him! 

Modifié par westiex9, 30 décembre 2009 - 09:51 .

[westiex9]

double post

Modifié par westiex9, 30 décembre 2009 - 09:50 .

[Bratinov]

The Anvil is a nessesary evil. it can also be useful for people who dont want to die.

Modifié par Bratinov, 30 décembre 2009 - 09:56 .

[JaegerBane]

Nemesis Shield wrote...
So, why get rid of the Anvil of the Void? Just use it ethically - only freely willing volunteers and no control rods under any circumstances. Basically, why can't all the golems be like Shale (the way she is now, after the destruction of the control rod)? Shayle (the dwarf) willing made the sacrifice that she thought was necessary to save her people, and without that nefarious control rod she seems perfectly independent and in full control of her free will.

I trust you realise that if it were possible to assume the dwarves would 'just use it ethically' then there wouldn't be an issue in the first place?

You're right, aside from the torture the subject must go through to animate a golem, the Anvil itself ultimately is neither good or evil. The problem is that Dwarven society has proven time and time again that it's too unstable to be trusted with this kind of power. This isn't a pessimistic commentary based on whatifs - when you find it, you have a said unstable leader of dwarven society standing at the entrance just waiting to put the Anvil to use. This is a woman who has sacrificed her whole house due to her obsession with the Anvil. Do you truely think that she is fit to bear the responsibility to create golems?

The reason 'all golems can't be like Shale' is because if you put someone unwilling through the process of making a golem you end up with a golem who is just as unwilling, only now they're twice the size and have the strength of an Ogre. It would be blatant stupidity to simply not use control rods and then hand over the anvil to someone like Branka.

[Lotion Soronarr]

westiex9 wrote...
i mean look at caridan's history he willingly made countless souls into golems knowing the agony of the process, these golem regiments then guarded orzamarr and the then remaining cities of the dwarves against the darkspawn . then king valthor got annoyed and turned caridan into a golem. only then does he suddenly change his tune and so he takes the anvil and hides it and as a result thousands of dwarves and all the remaining thaigs with the exception of orzammar are destroyed. This fool is no hero he is a murderer!  how does the unpleasant nature of the anvil and its few hundreds of victims  and subjects give him the moral justification to destroy the remainder of the dwarves?

Erm....no
The king started using hte castless and political opponents as golems. Caridin started to have his doubts long before he got turned into a golem. The very reson he got turned was because he refused to make more golems. So no, he didn't have a sudden change of heart. He did get all moody with the suicide thing. That I don't get.

And he couldn't have known that the dwarves will lose those thaigs. Golems were a powerfull weapon, but just a single weapon.

Also - are the dwarves destroyed because of his decision? No, there's still plenty of dwarves around.

Ultimatively, ask yourself the very question Eamon raised : "must we sacrifice anything that is good bout our country to save it?" If yes...is it even worth saving anymore?

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

I think it all depends on peoples perspective and as previous posters have said, how it is used.



It is the age old adage of absolute power corrupting absolutely. Whilst if it is used wisely with 'willing' participants ready to go through the pain and suffering they have to whilst being turned into a golem so that they may defend their territory, then it can be seen as a good thing. The evil side to it is when unwilling participants are dragged to it and turned into golems and they are used to invade other locations.



So basically the anvil itself is neither good nor evil, it is the people whom use it that can be one or the other. In my opinion anyway, I know there is the whole 'ethics' side to it, but if you knew you would make a greater warrior as a golem than if you remained as a normal dwarven warrior and you could help defend your kingdom better, would you do it? I'll openly admit that I probably would.

[Sabriana]

The anvil itself is neither good nor evil, agreed. But I don't think there is any safe solution to keeping it around. Oghren himself says that there are plenty of dwarfs who would willingly sacrifice themselves, but what happens when that 'volunteer base' runs into a snag for one reason or another?
The original king resorted to just taking whomever he wanted and turn them into golems against their will and wishes. Even if left in the care of a consortium, abuse can never be ruled out. Every abuser thinks that he/she has a 'very good reason' for terrible actions, and so it would be with the anvil.
The only thing I know for sure in my game is that Branka can never be allowed to get her hands on the anvil. The woman is a raving maniac. She furthered the use of her female house-members as broodmothers to get darkspawn ginea pigs, she killed those who tried to leave her, and used up her whole house in other ways to get the anvil. Even Hespith could no longer stand her and her actions in the end, and Hespith loved Branka.

Modifié par Sabriana, 30 décembre 2009 - 12:02 .

[Nemesis Shield]

JaegerBane wrote...

You're right, aside from the torture the subject must go through to animate a golem, the Anvil itself ultimately is neither good or evil. The problem is that Dwarven society has proven time and time again that it's too unstable to be trusted with this kind of power. This isn't a pessimistic commentary based on whatifs - when you find it, you have a said unstable leader of dwarven society standing at the entrance just waiting to put the Anvil to use. This is a woman who has sacrificed her whole house due to her obsession with the Anvil. Do you truely think that she is fit to bear the responsibility to create golems?

So, then I guess that when you choose to destroy or not to destory the Anvil, you are in essence passing judgement on dwarven society itself. If you destroy it, then you are essentially judging the dwarves incapable of ethically using the Anvil; if you don't, then you trusting the dwarves to only use it ethically and responsibly.

So, maybe this forum topic that I created is badly titled. Maybe the question should: "What is so evil about the dwarves that they can't seem to figure an ethical way to use the Anvil of the Void?"

Interesting. I was focusing more on the Anvil itself, but I guess what it really comes down is the actual nature of dwarven society. Do you, the player character, reasonably expect the dwarves to use the Anvil ethically? Considering everything in total - crazy Branka, power-hungry Bhelen, arch-traditionalist Harrowmont, the caste system - then maybe the dwarves just can't be expected to use the Anvil in an ethical manner.

Like I said above, to me the "ethical" use of the Anvil necessitates that ONLY free willing volunteers be transformed into golems AND that no control rods WHATSOEVER be created to deny any golem its free will. These are the two absolutely necessary conditions. If both of these are not satisfied, then the Anvil has not been used "ethically", in my opinion. Actually, I guess that there is one more condition: the volunteers have to be fully informed about what the process entails - the excruciating physical pain, and the fact that they will no longer have organic bodies - but, I guess that I am assuming that as an unstated assumption.

So, in conclusion: free will before the golem is created, and free will after the golem is created, with a full understanding of the consequences involved in the creation process.

free will before creation of golem (only volunteers) + complete understanding of costs (physical pain of process and an awareness of the reality of a mechanical, non-organic body) + free will after creation of golem (no control rods) = ethical use of Anvil of the Void

Of course, if the character is not an actual dwarf, then the matter becomes even more complicated. Should a human or an elf be allowed to make the decision of what to do with the Anvil? That's really interesting. Maybe Bioware should have allowed a human or an elf character to somehow bring the matter up for a vote in the Assembly. I don't know how though, given the power of the king in dwarven politics (the kings ultimately controlled and directed golem creation, not the Assembly, if I remember correctly).

[Nemesis Shield]

Sabriana wrote...

The anvil itself is neither good nor evil, agreed. But I don't think there is any safe solution to keeping it around. Oghren himself says that there are plenty of dwarfs who would willingly sacrifice themselves, but what happens when that 'volunteer base' runs into a snag for one reason or another?
The original king resorted to just taking whomever he wanted and turn them into golems against their will and wishes. Even if left in the care of a consortium, abuse can never be ruled out. Every abuser thinks that he/she has a 'very good reason' for terrible actions, and so it would be with the anvil.
The only thing I know for sure in my game is that Branka can never be allowed to get her hands on the anvil. The woman is a raving maniac. She furthered the use of her female house-members as broodmothers to get darkspawn ginea pigs, she killed those who tried to leave her, and used up her whole house in other ways to get the anvil. Even Hespith could no longer stand her and her actions in the end, and Hespith loved Branka.

But, in your game, was your character a dwarf? Let me ask this, just for the sake of argument, do you think that a non-dwarven character has the right to pass judgment on dwarven society as a whole?

That's an additional problem, I fear. Branka was crazy, I definitely agree. Bhelen is also kinda crazy, at least power-hungry and meglo-maniacal. Harrowmont is an arch-conservative who would probably use the castless to make more golems.

But, what other dwarves? Does a non-dwarven character have the right to deny all of the dwarves access to the Anvil of the Void?

That's tricky because there might always be hope for a dwarven ruler who would use the Anvil ethically, with the conditions that I described above. When you destroy the Anvil, you are denying its use by even an ethical dwarven ruler, as rare a prospect as that might be in the harsh world of Ferelden (let's face it - life in Ferelden is nasty, brutish, and short for humans, dwarves, elves, or whaever).

Modifié par Nemesis Shield, 30 décembre 2009 - 12:20 .

[twintalons]

I sided with Branka on my second play, and although I can't remember the exact end notes, it actually didn't sound as bad as the end notes on what happened when I destroyed the anvil and they put it back together anyway!!!
However, it certainly wasn't much different - it seems the dwarves end up forcing people to be made golems (rather than relying on volunteers) no matter WHAT. In the end I think Branka becomes the next Carridin by locking herself and the golems away with the anvil in the deep roads.

If they could use the anvil only for those who volunteered it'd be ok, as long as the volunteers knew exactly what they were in for (not like grey wardens!!!!)
I'm sure some dwarves would choose to become golems just for the immortality factor, if they were faced with their own death for example (you can still become a golem if you're really old can't you??)
BUT obviously the reality is that they just can't seem to stop themselves taking it beyond volunteers for some reason......... you'd think they'd eventually learn.... ok we can have volunteers only or NO anvil.... which do you want?

MorningBird wrote...

Nemesis Shield wrote...

Well, I think that I have argued over this as much as I am able. In the end, the game does not allow for an ethical use of the Anvil of the Void. The dwarves inevitably abuse it, both in the past and in the future. It is too risky to allow it to exist because of that. I guess that I expected more from the dwarves....

I wouldn't say that.  Keep in mind that the ending I gave only occurs if you choose to destroy the Anvil... which means BOTH Paragon Branka and Paragon Caridin are dead, leaving know-nothing dwarves to rebuild the Anvil, which may be why their results were... less than desirable.

I also think that most of the people who have posted so far chose to destroy the anvil in their play throughs.  Wait around until someone who actually sided with Branka shows up, and maybe they'll have a different perspective.

[Sabriana]

True, my mage was human, so she had no other information than seeing the raving maniac that is Branka, and listening to Caridin, Shale, and Oghren (of all people). Caridin is the inventor and should know better than anyone else what this anvil can do in the wrong hands. Shale is not only a dwarf, but a volunteer golem, and Oghren berates Branka for her obsession.

I do believe that the anvil is a surface concern also. It's powers are not restricted to dwarfs, meaning to make a golem you don't need dwarfs exclusively. So in the wrong hands, the surface could very well suffer because of the anvil.

Both Zevran and Morrigan back down after initially stating that keeping the anvil was a grand idea. My PC asked both if they wouldn't want to become nice, big machines, and they change their tune. Zevran changes his mind completely, Morrigan states that even though she wouldn't want to become a golem others could be made so. Scary, right there.

That's about all my human mage had to go on, so she decided to go with the one she trusted (Shale), the one who knew definitely better than her what this anvil meant (Caridin), and the one who knew Branka best (Oghren).

[Saturn21]

westiex9 wrote...

MorningBird wrote...

Nemesis Shield wrote...

Well, I think that I have argued over this as much as I am able. In the end, the game does not allow for an ethical use of the Anvil of the Void. The dwarves inevitably abuse it, both in the past and in the future. It is too risky to allow it to exist because of that. I guess that I expected more from the dwarves....

I also think that most of the people who have posted so far chose to destroy the anvil in their play throughs.  Wait around until someone who actually sided with Branka shows up, and maybe they'll have a different perspective.

Hi!

okay so i kept the anvil running. Now the fact that the dwarves are facing extinction and the character i was playing was a dwarf had a lot to do with my choice. Lets face it the anvil is a nasty tool which does gruesome things.....but the anvil is the lesser of two evils when you consider the horror of the darkspawn. The anvil is a tool of necessity and needs to be kept running so that the dwarven people will survive.

Now in my human playthrough i sympathised with caridan to some extent and destroyed the anvil, but playing from a dwarven perspective i have re-assesed my opinion of caridan and find his actions more repugnant than even branka's.

i mean look at caridan's history he willingly made countless souls into golems knowing the agony of the process, these golem regiments then guarded orzamarr and the then remaining cities of the dwarves against the darkspawn . then king valthor got annoyed and turned caridan into a golem. only then does he suddenly change his tune and so he takes the anvil and hides it and as a result thousands of dwarves and all the remaining thaigs with the exception of orzammar are destroyed. This fool is no hero he is a murderer!  how does the unpleasant nature of the anvil and its few hundreds of victims  and subjects give him the moral justification to destroy the remainder of the dwarves?

So yes the anvil is an evil process and yes it does horrible things but when your civilisation and species is on the brink you take the lesser evils and you commit every neccessary action to survive, clearly caridan forget this lesson and as a result innocent people suffered for it. So that golem can rust on the ground where i broke him! 

The Dwarves were going to use Humans since you are Human think about it? What if they used them against the humans? The reason the Dwarves were losing was poor decisions with government(Caste system?) and army they abandoned their capital city even though it fought off the darkspawn. the opening scene also shows golems unable to stop the darkspawn.

[Kepha]

Even if you accept the premise that the dwarves can use the anvil responsibly, with only volunteers and no control rods, you are at that point creating an army of SuperDwarves. What happens a hundred years or so down the line with the Golems decide that they're bigger and stronger then those little squishy dwarves and decide that things would be much better with Golems in charge.

[tmp7704]

Nemesis Shield wrote...

I was thinking about the Anvil of the Void, and I am a little unsure as to why Caridin and Shale were convinced that it was "evil" and had to be destroyed.

(..)

So, is there something that I am misunderstanding or missing? Can you explain why Caridin and Shale so adamantly hated the Anvil of the Void? What was so bad about it?

Consider the following -- Caridin and Shale are golems. They know first hand what it is like to be one. In other words, they are the only persons who have actual and exact knowledge when it comes to this subject. The rest of us is just letting our ignorance run our mouth for us.

So yes, we're likely misunderstanding/missing something here, something only a golem can fully grasp. This is not unlike questioning a slave who tells you slavery is evil, and telling them that surely it cannot be that bad and greater good and responsible use yadda yadda yadda. (the discussion about serfdom in Orlais between Leliana and the player's character if they're elf comes to mind)

Modifié par tmp7704, 30 décembre 2009 - 05:31 .

[skotie]

My two cents. Imho the only thing evil about the anvil situation was Branka or however you spell her name.

[JaegerBane]

Nemesis Shield wrote...
So, then I guess that when you choose to destroy or not to destory the Anvil, you are in essence passing judgement on dwarven society itself. If you destroy it, then you are essentially judging the dwarves incapable of ethically using the Anvil; if you don't, then you trusting the dwarves to only use it ethically and responsibly.

I'm doing no such thing. As I said, I'm passing judgement on *Branka*. Dwarven Society isn't completely ruined or anything, but it unfortunately does have a habit of elevating individuals to power that are are not fit for that role. Branka is one of these individuals and unless I destroy it, the anvil falls into the hands of pretty much the worst person possible. The fact that Caridin, it's creator, is willing me to destroy it pretty much tells me everything I need to know.

For what it's worth, if Caridin felt it okay, I would actually have left the Anvil in the hands of Bhelen.

Interesting. I was focusing more on the Anvil itself, but I guess what it really comes down is the actual nature of dwarven society. Do you, the player character, reasonably expect the dwarves to use the Anvil ethically? Considering everything in total - crazy Branka, power-hungry Bhelen, arch-traditionalist Harrowmont, the caste system - then maybe the dwarves just can't be expected to use the Anvil in an ethical manner.

Do I think there are dwarves out there that could use the Anvil responsibly? Of course. Do I think they are in positions of authority? Certainly not, aside from Bhelen, who will last only as long as his reign. For all I know the next one in the throne will be just like Valthor.

This isn't racism, of course - were Loghain in charge of Ferelden I wouldn't leave the anvil in the hands of humans, and I'd have to think long and hard about leaving it in the hands of the Elves if Zathtian was in charge.

[MOTpoetryION]

there was nothing really wrong with it when there was ONLY volunteers but once the king started forcing people to do it . Thats when it became wrong its as simple as that. He started putting his political enemies, the castless and criminals. Out of those three the last i would say was OK but the other two not.

[Realmzmaster]

The anvil is neither good nor evil. The anvil is a weapon maker. The golems are the weapons. Why did they need to make control rods? They were using dwarves who did not want to be golems. Now are you going to create a weapon you cannot control? An all volunteer golem army is ok. But what happens as golems are destroyed, you eventually runout of volunteers. You then start using others. These others retain their free will. Now you have someone who did not want to be a golem as a golem. You have to control it otherwise it will not do what you say. It becomes a non-weapon or worst turns on you.
As a human or elf you make a decision based on your situation. You will get an army either way. You either get an army of dwarves or a group of golems.
But looking past the Blight, you now have the dwarves with a weapon you cannot match. The dwarves can wage war on the surface folk and turn any surface folk captured into golems. So the decision is the immediate need verus the long term threat.
The human or elf would probably destroy the anvil and take the dwaren army.
If you are playing a dwarf you will look at it differently. The golems can help save your people. You can do surface raids to grab people to make into golems thereby sparing your people. You have the control rods to make them behave. You have a weapon against the darkspawn. You also have a weapon the surface dwellers cannot match.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 30 décembre 2009 - 06:01 .

[arntson]

Nemesis Shield wrote...

CloudOfShadows wrote...

Imho, that's exactly why the anvil is evil. It's a cheap, and painful (lethal?) way to power. It twists dwarves into something they are not. It's akin to darkspawn in the aspect of being a forced way - the Grey Wardens are the exceptions for the darkspawn. Maybe Shale is an exception for a golem?

Actually, that is a good analogy to the Grey Wardens. They also willingly choose to sacrifice themselves - to drink the darkspawn blood. The Grey Wardens are also "twisted" into something they are not, even though the experience is a hell of a lot less painful (just some really bad dreams).

So long as the dwarves do not force anybody to become a golem, even in dire circumstances, and so long as they do not create any control rods whatsoever, then some really, really brave dwarf might want to go above and beyond the call of duty to save his or her people. If someone wants to be a hero, then maybe they should be allowed to....

An army of purely volunteer golems, acting under their own free will (no control rods)..... that does not seem unethical to me. It would seem very brave and patriotic, almost in the sense of a martyr.....

Well, I think that I have argued over this as much as I am able. In the end, the game does not allow for an ethical use of the Anvil of the Void. The dwarves inevitably abuse it, both in the past and in the future. It is too risky to allow it to exist because of that. I guess that I expected more from the dwarves....

they should let you set shale to guard it for all eternity to make sure its not abuse

[Scotsman284]

I ended up sympathizing with Caridin, even as a Dwarf Noble. The way I see it, the Anvil's power is just too enticing to be used ethically. Anyone can use it and say its to help the dwarven people but somewhere along the lines I figured it would be abused. I mean, Hitler was elected in Germany in the 1930's because he promised to rebuild Germany after all they had lost in WW1.

So this is strictly my opinion but I just think that the Anvil is kindof equated to the Ring of Power, even if one intends to use it for good, it will only end up being used for evil purposes.

And I think I read somewhere that keeping the Anvil operational results in the dwarves kidnapping surface dwellers to be made into golems and eventually leads to a war with the humans... may have read it wrong though, so dont take my word for it.

Modifié par Scotsman284, 30 décembre 2009 - 07:51 .

[Blakes 7]

The whole golem thing seems inspired by doctor whos cyber men; human beings robbed of their flesh and made metal - also robbed of free will by the cybermen controller. I wonder if bioware writers are doctor who fans? Definitely liked the choice of whether or not to save the golems, personally I destroyed the forge only to read in the epilogue someone attempted to repair it to no avail. The whole point of destroying it for me is that such power is perverse and corrupts absolutely.

[hereticeyes]

During Caridin's speech, it is said that he had to pour molten metal onto a living dwarf, among other things, to turn him into a Golem. Then it is assumed that the dwarf's soul is trapped inside the Golem.

However, if you choose to slay Caridin, you can still tell Branka to destroy the Anvil afterwards. At that point, Branka is the only person who can hear voices from the Anvil calling her to make more Golems. The Player can then suggest that those voices from the Anvil are the souls of those who became Golems.

So which is it? Are the souls trapped inside the Golem, or the Anvil? Or perhaps the soul is divided and trapped in both?

If the soul is solely transferred to the Golem, and as the thread starter said, no control rods are used, then the Anvil is not evil.

However, if part of the soul is trapped inside the anvil itself, then that is definitely evil.

Modifié par hereticeyes, 30 décembre 2009 - 08:22 .

[LynxAQ]

No object that is lifeless and soulless can have an alignment. The anvil is neither good, evil or neutral. The alignment all lies in the weilder.



There is a good line in this game where the crow guy says something along the sense of, if a man kills another man, who do you blame? The sword or the man weilding the sword.



No weopon or tool can have an alignment.

[Baalzie]

Well major spoiler, but hey! I'ts the answer to the question!







If You have ever saved the Anvil, You will know that the first King who had access to it FORCED people into Golems... And Branka and whoever is King will ALSO start forcing people into Golems, the King might order a cease in it, but Branka will just kidnap SURFACERS via raids on the surface to force into Golems...

The Anvil isn't just a tool, it seem to actually WANT to be used...

And thus the unwilling have ALWAYS in the end been forced into the shapes of Golems...

So no it's NOT the rods, but the Anvil... it WILL be used, volounteers or no volounteers!

Caridin even states this when he speaks, how can You miss that?

He was even glad that atleast Shayle had retained her mind, but then "She always had a strong mind" as Caridin put it... Seems few Golems retained their mind even... Not just lost their will but their minds were gone with most...



That would be stated as evil by most folks...

[LynxAQ]

The Anvil isn't just a tool, it seem to actually WANT to be used...

Yes and we need to go to the Mount Doom and drop it into a volcano... >.>

No where in the codex or game dialogues is this ever suggested so please dont make up points.

Seems few Golems retained their mind even...

No, all golems retain their mind, they just lose free will. Speaking to Shale and readin the info (limited as it is, but not written in a way that could open it up to interpretation), none of it suggests this imo.

That would be stated as evil by most folks...

Ad populum my friend, doesnt matter what most people think, doesnt change the fact that a lifeless object cannot have an alignment, no matter what. The alignment all lies in the user.



Most folks thought the world was flat at one stage, didnt make it true.