90 réponses à ce sujet

[Realmzmaster]

Humans.elves etc can be forced to become golems. The anvil itself is not evil. It is an object. The person using it can be good or evil. But even a person with the best of intentions can abuse the anvil. Why should I use dwarves to make golems when I can grab surface folk and bind them to my will (control rod). Darkspawn cannot be used because they are soulless creatures. There is no soul to bind to the armor.

Anyone can kill an archdemon, but only a Grey Warden can kill the archdemon's soul. If the archdemon is killed by a non-grey warden the soul just leaps to the nearest darkspawn which is soulless. The darkspawn becomes the new archdemon.

Since the Grey Warden has a soul and the taint, the soul of the archdemon identifies the taint in the Grey Warden. The archdemon's soul leaps to the Warden's body. The two souls wage war over the body. Both souls destroy each other. The Archdemon dies and so does the warden. Darkspawn do not have that problem.

[hereticeyes]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Humans.elves etc can be forced to become golems. The anvil itself is not evil. It is an object. The person using it can be good or evil. But even a person with the best of intentions can abuse the anvil. Why should I use dwarves to make golems when I can grab surface folk and bind them to my will (control rod). Darkspawn cannot be used because they are soulless creatures. There is no soul to bind to the armor.

Good point. When I played a Dwarf Noble I wanted the Dwarf sovereign to capture surfacers and feed them to the anvil. He can probably trade his fine dwarven crafts to Tevinter or Antiva in exchange for some slaves, seeing how Ferelden frowns on such a practice.

[Fleapants]

The Anvil is a WMD, more or less.

The dwarves can't handle the responsibility of having it as seen in the epilogues, and I doubt any country in Thedas could. Except the Qunari, perhaps.

[Baalzie]

LynxAQ wrote...

The Anvil isn't just a tool, it seem to actually WANT to be used...

Yes and we need to go to the Mount Doom and drop it into a volcano... >.>
No where in the codex or game dialogues is this ever suggested so please dont make up points.

Seems few Golems retained their mind even...

No, all golems retain their mind, they just lose free will. Speaking to Shale and readin the info (limited as it is, but not written in a way that could open it up to interpretation), none of it suggests this imo.

That would be stated as evil by most folks...

Ad populum my friend, doesnt matter what most people think, doesnt change the fact that a lifeless object cannot have an alignment, no matter what. The alignment all lies in the user.

Most folks thought the world was flat at one stage, didnt make it true.

Nowhere in the codex or the game is it stated that the Anvil is NOT semisentient or anything like it so stop making up points!
And btw, learn the word "seem" and then reread... 
And Caridin states "No golem can touch it" and yet he use it to make the crown...  Realize not everything is set in stone in this game...
And Just because YOU can't see it in the dialogue, doesn't mean it isn't easily seen if You have an enquiring mind.
Not everything is written in big red neonlights...

I'ts NOT said anywhere all Golems retained their minds... Quite the opposite is hinted *read hinted* at...
Replay, test all dialogues... Keep an open mind though if You can, and voilá interesting thoughts may appear in Your mind...

And yes ad populum... We're not talking ADD alignments here... Do YOU decide what definition of the word "evil" on an item is to be used or not? Especially in a game that is outspokingly NOT using Alignments, so obviously since we're not talking ingame, we're talking RL views, and in RL we have no alignments but only what we view as evil/good, and thus What people ad populum THINK is the answer we're de facto after...

I think You will find that very few people would state YOU as the source of origins of the definition and useage of words in any languages...
So uhm feel free to state that it is Your OPINION, don't state it as a fact...
And again read what I write, not what You want to see written...
"would be stated by most" means just that...

And speaking to Shale You know that she knows NOTHING of other Golems... So uhm talking to HER gives no info about other Golems states... But as I stated, Caridin hints that Shayle's mind is intact thanks to her Strong mind... If You don't find the Dialogue, doesn't mean it's not there, just that You failed at seeing it *You only see whatever comes after Your own choice sometimes, diff choice diff dialogue*
Shale is not in any way a usual Golem...

[Reader81]

Nemesis Shield wrote...

CloudOfShadows wrote...

Imho, that's exactly why the anvil is evil. It's a cheap, and painful (lethal?) way to power. It twists dwarves into something they are not. It's akin to darkspawn in the aspect of being a forced way - the Grey Wardens are the exceptions for the darkspawn. Maybe Shale is an exception for a golem?

Actually, that is a good analogy to the Grey Wardens. They also willingly choose to sacrifice themselves - to drink the darkspawn blood. The Grey Wardens are also "twisted" into something they are not, even though the experience is a hell of a lot less painful (just some really bad dreams).

So long as the dwarves do not force anybody to become a golem, even in dire circumstances, and so long as they do not create any control rods whatsoever, then some really, really brave dwarf might want to go above and beyond the call of duty to save his or her people. If someone wants to be a hero, then maybe they should be allowed to....

An army of purely volunteer golems, acting under their own free will (no control rods)..... that does not seem unethical to me. It would seem very brave and patriotic, almost in the sense of a martyr.....

Well, I think that I have argued over this as much as I am able. In the end, the game does not allow for an ethical use of the Anvil of the Void. The dwarves inevitably abuse it, both in the past and in the future. It is too risky to allow it to exist because of that. I guess that I expected more from the dwarves....

No, they didn't, most of time at least Grey Warden didn't tell truth about joining, they just hold their month until last min, how can they choice willing free if they don't know what lie ahead of them? Look at Ser Jory? Is his fault his join Gery Warden? No, he don't know he has to drink blood, something he would not drink blood since it's was wrong because it's sin to him, and evil. yet Dunron hold his mouth till joining and tell him a last min. So it's not like they choice willing free, if they choice willing, they should knew and told they has to drink a blood before joining Grey Warden, if Grey Warden has a hard time to get people after tell them truth, well, I guess it's too bad. Bad guy like criminal might has no problem and willing to do it, but people who are a law-aiding, or not a criminal, they more like forced to drink a blood, not freely choice to drink a blood.

[Klickklack]

If there is a weapon, it will be used. Maybe a responsible king wouldn't force anybody. But how do you ensure that every single King witch may follow is responsible, especially if you take into consideration that backstabbing seems to be an appreciated tool in dwarfen politics.

[The Capital Gaultier]

There are many things that I think are labeled evil without actually being as such. The Anvil is not. While the idea itself is not evil (use volunteers to create a powerful army), the fact of the matter is that the golems were created without free will.

[Mentant98]

The dwarven problem is that they could be overrun entirely. Out of the 12 Great Taigs, only 2 survive, and they are cut off from each other. The dwarves are fighting--and slowly losing--a defensive war of attrition. The Golems are a desperately-needed force multiplier. Caridan's answer that "we'll find another way" to defend Orzimmar does not take into account that the dwarves have been trying just that for hundreds of years, and are still losing.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Mentant98 wrote...

The dwarven problem is that they could be overrun entirely. Out of the 12 Great Taigs, only 2 survive, and they are cut off from each other. The dwarves are fighting--and slowly losing--a defensive war of attrition. The Golems are a desperately-needed force multiplier. Caridan's answer that "we'll find another way" to defend Orzimmar does not take into account that the dwarves have been trying just that for hundreds of years, and are still losing.

The Dwarves actually retake some ground and force the darkspawn back if you choose the dictator and destroy the Anvil.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 30 décembre 2009 - 10:27 .

[Mentant98]

I'm sure that some territory has switched hands back and forth, particularly at the end of a Blight when the darkspawn are in full retreat and disarray.



That doesn't change the overall strategic picture though. The Golden Age of the Dwarves is long over, even if Bhelen wins the throne. Temporary gains are overshadowed by strategic losses in a war fought over a span of centuries.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Mentant98 wrote...

I'm sure that some territory has switched hands back and forth, particularly at the end of a Blight when the darkspawn are in full retreat and disarray.

That doesn't change the overall strategic picture though. The Golden Age of the Dwarves is long over, even if Bhelen wins the throne. Temporary gains are overshadowed by strategic losses in a war fought over a span of centuries.

The end of a Blight is a surge in the Deep Roads.  Make no mistake - the political will of the Dwarves is the deciding factor, not the Anvil.

[westiex9]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

westiex9 wrote...
i mean look at caridan's history he willingly made countless souls into golems knowing the agony of the process, these golem regiments then guarded orzamarr and the then remaining cities of the dwarves against the darkspawn . then king valthor got annoyed and turned caridan into a golem. only then does he suddenly change his tune and so he takes the anvil and hides it and as a result thousands of dwarves and all the remaining thaigs with the exception of orzammar are destroyed. This fool is no hero he is a murderer!  how does the unpleasant nature of the anvil and its few hundreds of victims  and subjects give him the moral justification to destroy the remainder of the dwarves?

Also - are the dwarves destroyed because of his decision? No, there's still plenty of dwarves around.

Ultimatively, ask yourself the very question Eamon raised : "must we sacrifice anything that is good bout our country to save it?" If yes...is it even worth saving anymore?

Even if caridan didn't know that he would doom the thaigs that doesnt change the fact that he stripped the dwarves of their armies most powerful weapon. what he did doomed countless dwarves and as for their being plenty of dwarves, take a walk outside orzamarr a few miles and that theory soon falls silent.  whether he knew it or not what he did was wrong  and he deserves no sympathy. 

Eamon's quoute is a little out of place given he is a surfacer and will probably never see another darkspawn outside of the fifth blight.

" This anvil is our peoples salvation, imagine  dwarves filling the lost thaigs once more and the deep roads once again alive with the noise of millions of our kind. This is a cause worth any sacrifice to achieve that we must give thousands to the anvil is unfortunate but their sacrifice will ensure that dwarven kind is renewed, and who among us is foolish enough to doubt that is worth the doom of a few" - Prince Thorin Aeducan's Speech to the Assembly of orzammar a month before Succeeding King Harrowmont

[The Capital Gaultier]

westiex9 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

westiex9 wrote...
i mean look at caridan's history he willingly made countless souls into golems knowing the agony of the process, these golem regiments then guarded orzamarr and the then remaining cities of the dwarves against the darkspawn . then king valthor got annoyed and turned caridan into a golem. only then does he suddenly change his tune and so he takes the anvil and hides it and as a result thousands of dwarves and all the remaining thaigs with the exception of orzammar are destroyed. This fool is no hero he is a murderer!  how does the unpleasant nature of the anvil and its few hundreds of victims  and subjects give him the moral justification to destroy the remainder of the dwarves?

Also - are the dwarves destroyed because of his decision? No, there's still plenty of dwarves around.

Ultimatively, ask yourself the very question Eamon raised : "must we sacrifice anything that is good bout our country to save it?" If yes...is it even worth saving anymore?

Even if caridan didn't know that he would doom the thaigs that doesnt change the fact that he stripped the dwarves of their armies most powerful weapon. what he did doomed countless dwarves and as for their being plenty of dwarves, take a walk outside orzamarr a few miles and that theory soon falls silent.  whether he knew it or not what he did was wrong  and he deserves no sympathy. 

Eamon's quoute is a little out of place given he is a surfacer and will probably never see another darkspawn outside of the fifth blight.

" This anvil is our peoples salvation, imagine  dwarves filling the lost thaigs once more and the deep roads once again alive with the noise of millions of our kind. This is a cause worth any sacrifice to achieve that we must give thousands to the anvil is unfortunate but their sacrifice will ensure that dwarven kind is renewed, and who among us is foolish enough to doubt that is worth the doom of a few" - Prince Thorin Aeducan's Speech to the Assembly of orzammar a month before Succeeding King Harrowmont

Never in history has a weapon won a war.  It's completely understandable and I think it plays off of America's techno-worship, but it's just not true.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 30 décembre 2009 - 10:59 .

[westiex9]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

westiex9 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

westiex9 wrote...
i mean look at caridan's history he willingly made countless souls into golems knowing the agony of the process, these golem regiments then guarded orzamarr and the then remaining cities of the dwarves against the darkspawn . then king valthor got annoyed and turned caridan into a golem. only then does he suddenly change his tune and so he takes the anvil and hides it and as a result thousands of dwarves and all the remaining thaigs with the exception of orzammar are destroyed. This fool is no hero he is a murderer!  how does the unpleasant nature of the anvil and its few hundreds of victims  and subjects give him the moral justification to destroy the remainder of the dwarves?

Also - are the dwarves destroyed because of his decision? No, there's still plenty of dwarves around.

Ultimatively, ask yourself the very question Eamon raised : "must we sacrifice anything that is good bout our country to save it?" If yes...is it even worth saving anymore?

Even if caridan didn't know that he would doom the thaigs that doesnt change the fact that he stripped the dwarves of their armies most powerful weapon. what he did doomed countless dwarves and as for their being plenty of dwarves, take a walk outside orzamarr a few miles and that theory soon falls silent.  whether he knew it or not what he did was wrong  and he deserves no sympathy. 

Eamon's quoute is a little out of place given he is a surfacer and will probably never see another darkspawn outside of the fifth blight.

" This anvil is our peoples salvation, imagine  dwarves filling the lost thaigs once more and the deep roads once again alive with the noise of millions of our kind. This is a cause worth any sacrifice to achieve that we must give thousands to the anvil is unfortunate but their sacrifice will ensure that dwarven kind is renewed, and who among us is foolish enough to doubt that is worth the doom of a few" - Prince Thorin Aeducan's Speech to the Assembly of orzammar a month before Succeeding King Harrowmont

Never in history has a weapon won a war.  It's completely understandable and I think it plays off of America's techno-worship, but it's just not true.

I beg to differ some of Histories greatest wars were won with aid from new weapons,  The japanese shoguns unified their entire nation with the aid of portungese muskets, America brought japan to its knees with the atomic bomb, the european nations drove back the turks with advanced galleons.  Weapons win wars in countless ages because war is a struggle that involves technology intimately.

But that is all beside the point, the dwarves have a much better chance of survival with the anvil then without so i chose to keep the anvil intact so they can use it.

Modifié par westiex9, 30 décembre 2009 - 11:10 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

westiex9 wrote...

I beg to differ some of Histories greatest wars were won with aid from new weapon,  The japanese shoguns unified their entire nation with the aid of portungese muskets America brought japan to its knees with the atomic bomb the european nations drove back the turks with advanced galleons.  Weapons win wars in countless ages because war is a struggle that involves technology intimately.

But that is all beside the point, the dwarves have a much better chance of survival with the anvil then without so i chose to keep the anvil intact so they can use it.

Those aren't examples of weapons winning wars, though.  The Dwarves do better at survival under a dictator.  The Anvil may improve their chances of survival, but it has no visible impact that we know of.

[westiex9]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

westiex9 wrote...

I beg to differ some of Histories greatest wars were won with aid from new weapon,  The japanese shoguns unified their entire nation with the aid of portungese muskets America brought japan to its knees with the atomic bomb the european nations drove back the turks with advanced galleons.  Weapons win wars in countless ages because war is a struggle that involves technology intimately.

But that is all beside the point, the dwarves have a much better chance of survival with the anvil then without so i chose to keep the anvil intact so they can use it.

Those aren't examples of weapons winning wars, though.  The Dwarves do better at survival under a dictator.  The Anvil may improve their chances of survival, but it has no visible impact that we know of.

Well the epilogue cards may not clearly state better chances of survival but in my opinion legions of Stone and iron are going to give Orzammar a pretty clear edge against the darkspawn.

[AtreiyaN7]

I think the "evil" part would involve the fact that anyone on the throne could abuse the power of the Anvil. You'll note that Caridin said the king had started sending political enemies/prisoners to the Anvil, casteless, etc. The idea was that it was only supposed to be volunteers who wanted to defend their homeland originally. Besides, I'm thinking the dying from molten metal thing while having your soul transferred is kind of not that pleasant either. Oh, and yes, control rods canceling out free will seems kind of on the evil side. That too can be abused - what if you have some power-mad master smith, oh, like Branka, with a control rod, eh? Things can go south pretty quick.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 09 janvier 2010 - 08:27 .

[Setz69]

Baalzie wrote...

Nowhere in the codex or the game is it stated that the Anvil is NOT semisentient or anything like it so stop making up points!

Nowhere in the Codex does it state the Anvil is NOT the illegimate son of Allistair and a rock either, does that make this fact? no. Saying something 'is' because it isn't stated that it 'isn't', is illogical at best.

[Baalzie]

Setz69 wrote...

Baalzie wrote...

Nowhere in the codex or the game is it stated that the Anvil is NOT semisentient or anything like it so stop making up points!

Nowhere in the Codex does it state the Anvil is NOT the illegimate son of Allistair and a rock either, does that make this fact? no. Saying something 'is' because it isn't stated that it 'isn't', is illogical at best.

Hence is why I didn't state it as a fact... 
Good on You to spot it, I hid it so well...
"It SEEMS to..." Doh!
Why can't people read simple english?
I haven't stated any facts!
Only others have..... How about actually reading before posting?

[Nemesis Shield]

Okay, hmmm, interesting discussion thus far.



One question though: can anyone elaborate on what Branka says if you side with her but then try to convince her to destory the Anvil?



Someone above mentioned that Branka could hear the voices of the souls of those trapped in the Anvil. Are we supposed to read that as being the actual truth or as her just becoming crazier and crazier?



I have been assuming that the Anvil does not actually "damage" or "trap" or "enslave" or whatever the souls of those who are turned into golems. I was under the impression that it is the control rods which do that - that is, they rob the golems of their free will. I was assuming that the Anvil itself only causes excruciating physical pain, but it does not injure or enslave the minds of the dwarves.



But, if the Anvil itself actually does something to the souls of the dwarves (erases their memories, changes their personalities, etc.), then that places everything in a completely different perspective for me. In that case, it becomes impossible to ever use the Anvil ethically, since the actual process that creates golems involves direct injury not just to the body but to the mind as well. Physical pain or damage can be stoically endured in theory, but damage to the soul or mind cannot since it attacks the very essence of the individual.



Can anyone confirm this? Is there a codex entry that back this up the theory that the Anvil itself injures or enslaves the minds of its subjects? Or, is Branka our only source?

[Bibdy]

Its really quite simple.

It was originally intended to allow people who wanted to sacrifice their lives as mortal flesh and blood beings to become instruments of war for their nation and their people.

This was fine and dandy until a corrupt King decided he wasn't getting enough of these instruments of war and put unwilling dwarves to the Anvil against their will. Caridin doesn't trust that the same won't happen again, should the Anvil become re-discovered. The moment another despot's ass touches that throne, more unwilling participants are going to get turned into golems, guaranteed.

In a way its out of necessity, because the dwarves are a 'dying' people, slowing succumbing to the Darkspawn hordes, but Caridin thinks this is unnecessary and makes them no better than the darkspawn if they sacrifice their morality and mortality to combat the threat.

So, the question is, is it even evil? Probably not. Its a moral grey area. Do they use these unwilling volunteers such as the casteless, people whose lives are generally going to suck anyway, to fight back the darkspawn and become a prosperous nation once again, or hold onto their moral ideals and slowly fade away and become extinct?

'Moral high ground' vs 'any means necessary'. That's not the same as good vs evil. That's life, and that's what DA:O does so well.

The only true definition of evil, is if you ENJOY the plight of others and intentionally inflict pain and/or suffering on them. So, is it evil to destroy the anvil and condemn the dwarves to a slow death and extinction? Is it evil if you believe the dwarves are capable of finding another way to survive? That's faith. So is faith evil?

This is why using terms like good and evil are difficult to apply, when you think about the long term. Sure, you might save some people now, but them, or their children are going to suffer horribly in the end.

Modifié par Bibdy, 31 décembre 2009 - 01:29 .

[Nemesis Shield]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Never in history has a weapon won a war.  It's completely understandable and I think it plays off of America's techno-worship, but it's just not true.

What about the conquest of the Americas by the Europeans (particularly the Spanish in central and south America)? I don't think that you can deny that steel, horses, and guns gave the Spanish a decisive advantage that allowed them to topple entire empires with only a handful of soldiers. Granted, disease (especially small pox) killed far more of the civilian population than any human weapon ever could, but on the battlefield itself the technological advantage was paramount.

I don't mean to sound snarky or cynical here, but then how do you win a war if not with weapons?

We can all agree that war is bad, but unfortunately it has also been a constant part of human existence and human nature.

Your perspective is wonderful, really, but it is also deeply unrealistic, I fear. The only thing that can "end" war is peace, but since peace is so ephemeral and unstable, it might not be possible to every truly "end" war. It may only be possible to "survive" it - that is, to win (or, at least, reach some sort of stalemate).

That does not mean, however, that wars cannot be fought "justly", at least in some sense. Philosophers have long argued about what does or does not make a "just war". It is an important part of ethical and political philosophy. Certain weapons and tactics are outlawed because they are concerned "unjust"; for example, nuclear weapons are considered "unjust" because they indiscriminately kill civilians as well soldiers (particularly, the radiation).

That is kinda my perspective on the Anvil of the Void. I was wondering if there might some way, at least in theory, for it to be used "ethically" so that the dwarves can benefit from it as a weapon that they can use to defend themselves. It is all speculative, obviously, since Bioware has not given us any option to explore such a possibility.

Sorry, I will descend from my philosophical soapbox now. Anyway, this discussion is very interesting.

Modifié par Nemesis Shield, 31 décembre 2009 - 01:26 .

[Nemesis Shield]

Bibdy wrote...

'Moral high ground' vs 'any means necessary'. That's not the same as good vs evil. That's life, and that's what DA:O does so well.

Well said!

[MorningBird]

Nemesis Shield wrote...

Okay, hmmm, interesting discussion thus far.

One question though: can anyone elaborate on what Branka says if you side with her but then try to convince her to destory the Anvil?

Someone above mentioned that Branka could hear the voices of the souls of those trapped in the Anvil. Are we supposed to read that as being the actual truth or as her just becoming crazier and crazier?

I'm sort of interested in hearing more on this as well.

Also, I've read the posts of those who sided with Branka and kept the Anvil in a play through, and from what I've gathered thus far:

User path > Destroy the Anvil:
- The dwarves excavate its remains from the Deep Roads.
- Call souls back from the Fade to encase them in the Golems.
- The Golems go mad, killing hundreds.

- The end result: The Anvil is locked away.

User path > Keep the Anvil:
- Eventually, dwarves are forced against their will into becoming golems.

-The end result: two different scenarios
1) Branka hides with the Anvil and starts kidnapping surfacers to turn into golems.
2) Branka takes the Anvil and golems back into the Deep Roads and hides away like Paragon Caridin.


Can anyone elaborate on the user path where the player decides to keep the Anvil?  I feel like I've missed something...

[Nemesis Shield]

I agree with MorningBird. We need more precise info here.

We might all be making a lot of assumptions about how the Anvil actually works, whether the control rods are necessary or not, what the dwarves actually do or don't if they are given the Anvil, etc.

What makes it especially difficult to get a complete picture about this is that it seems that Bioware scattered different information throughout the various possible options. One possible route through the story reveals X about the Anvil, while another adds a different piece Y. Therefore, you may not be getting the whole story until you try out every single possibility involving the Anvil - a daunting task considering how many options Bioware has left for us.

Modifié par Nemesis Shield, 31 décembre 2009 - 03:02 .