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[Medhia Nox]

For those saying the anvil is not evil...



So, you condone slavery then? Because that's exactly what the anvil does.. it turns you into a slave.



Would you like to be my slave.. I'm looking for some "volunteers".

[The Capital Gaultier]

Nemesis Shield wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Never in history has a weapon won a war.  It's completely understandable and I think it plays off of America's techno-worship, but it's just not true.

What about the conquest of the Americas by the Europeans (particularly the Spanish in central and south America)? I don't think that you can deny that steel, horses, and guns gave the Spanish a decisive advantage that allowed them to topple entire empires with only a handful of soldiers. Granted, disease (especially small pox) killed far more of the civilian population than any human weapon ever could, but on the battlefield itself the technological advantage was paramount.

I don't mean to sound snarky or cynical here, but then how do you win a war if not with weapons?

The Americas were conquered more through misunderstanding and chance than through force of arms.  The Spaniards were greatly outnumbered in their initial encounters, but as you said, were able to conquer quite quickly for a few chances of history.  The technological advantage was slim.  It was awe-inspiring, but not insurmountable.

As to how you win a war without weapons - I'm referring to the decisive advantage, not to the tools of war.  For example, in WWII the Germans invented the best jet airplane in the world.  It took years after the war was finished for a better jet to be invented.  However, it obviously did not win the war for them.  The same goes for the Russian (and American) T-34 tank.  It was arguably the best tank in the war, but it was not the decisive advantage on the Russian/German front.  Every side will have weapons.  There are battles where the weapons do play a decisive advantage (i.e. Agincourt, Alexander's siege of Halicarnassus), but they don't win wars.

[dtking3]

It would be more like having to watch yourself do things outside your control constantly, as the Golem control rods wouldn't allow any free will whatsoever. That alone would be horrifying, given enough time. I'm guessing, but I'd be willing to bet that the transfer of one's soul to an unliving object would also hurt like Hades...

[skotie]

Medhia Nox wrote...

For those saying the anvil is not evil...

So, you condone slavery then? Because that's exactly what the anvil does.. it turns you into a slave.

Would you like to be my slave.. I'm looking for some "volunteers".

Your confusing what is can do with what it could do.

A weapon itself is not dangerous, however someone using it can do all kinds of things most would consider evil, kill, steal, force people to do things.

The anvil is much the same way, the people originally made into golems were volenteers, men and women who wanted to defend their country so they gave their own souls willingly to be made into stronger weapons, golems.

The "evil" of the anvil has always laid in the hands of the user, just like a weapon, and was only evil when they started using unwilling souls to make golems.

Modifié par skotie, 31 décembre 2009 - 05:14 .

[Archonsg]

I am glad that a few noticed the need to have control rods regardless of ethical considerations as long as the Anvil or the knowledge on how to create golems exist. While one side of the argument is that control rods take away one's free will once they become a golem the flip side is that once anyone become a golem whether willingly or not, one in essence becomes immortal and quite powerful.



As such, the need for a control mechanism to prevent any golem who would rebel or worst incite a golem revolt must be in place to prevent abusing the power of becoming a Golem.

Would you put it past Bhelen in his fading and aging years not to try and become a Golem himself along with his more fanatical supporters to extend his rule forever? Or as has been mentioned before, anyone who has been forced to become a golem, if left with free will, would they not strike out the moment they are able to?



Even volunteers after decades of fighting darkspawn as a golem would they not eventually mentally think of themselves as superior to those who command them and sooner or later one or more would decide that non-golems would have no right to rule the Dwarven Nations, or worse, see it as a "dwarven duty" for every dwarf to become a Golem and not let old age or injuries prevent them from defending the dwarven race? How soon do you think a golem who had volunteer their life to defending their people would begin to feel betrayed by these very same "squishy folk" who choose not fight due to little things such as house politics or minor injuries? After all, if they can make the sacrifice, would it not be fair for those who were protected all these years by the golem's sacrifice and allowed to live a "normal" life return the favor and become a golem once they become old and weak or had their bodies become defunct due to injuries? What better re-payment then to become golems themselves and thus ensure the survival of the dwarven race?

At which point, it is not a very real possibility that the golems themselves would turn against the very people they were made to protect should the golems deem that the "squisheis" do not deserve their protection.

An army of un-controlable, angry and determined golems can do a whole lot more damage then a darkspawn surge I would think.



So for all those who think that once you become a golem and expect to keep your "free will" I am sorry but I really don't see this as do-able. Abuse of a golem's power can come from both sides and not just those who create Golems.

[tmp7704]

skotie wrote...

Your confusing what is can do with what it could do.

A weapon itself is not dangerous, however someone using it can do all kinds of things most would consider evil, kill, steal, force people to do things.

The anvil is much the same way, the people originally made into golems were volenteers, men and women who wanted to defend their country so they gave their own souls willingly to be made into stronger weapons, golems.

Actually no, he's got a point there. Quite a few people willingly could enter the slavery too, either to protect their family from similar fate or for other reasons. It doesn't make the concept itself any less reprehensible and the anvil producing the "willing" slaves can be viewed like that too.

"Weapon" is only part of what the anvil does with its subjects, and the other part is apparently too horrible to allow it to exist, according to these who underwent the process.

[G4M3RAID]

The PROBLEM IS THE ANVIL; The real truth for all of you stating that the Anvil is not a weapon nor evil are clearly mistaken! It is in fact (whether implied or not) a creation of evil in and of itself. The very name of the craft implies that it is from or for a negative source! It holds the power, regardless of any dwarf (nay, any other race). Many other brilliant minds and 'inventors' could try to create what the Anvil does, without using the Anvil and possibly never succeed.

The real dilemma [and I use this in direct meaning: 'Between a rock and a hard place'] is that the dwarves are very troubled right now, and they are essentially the 'middle ground' for the darkspawn and civil life. But think about this: The dwarves have already tried using an army of Golems to stop the darkspawn, but did not succeed. So the problem will still remain.

WHY COMPLICATE CIVIL PROBLEMS WITH MORE MORALLY IMBUING PROBLEMS OF GOLEMS!!!

On a side note, 'Golem' in LOTR was originally a good person until he came into contact with a powerful spirit source as the ring (the Anvil) and was drawn to a dark side!

[Bhatair]

Mainly that it converted living people into unliving, yet animated, slaves.



Next to the Bewitched Templar in the Mage Tower this is always the toughest choice for my characters. =/

[KahnyaGnorc]

The anvil wasn't evil. It is what they DID with the anvil, creating the unliving slave-soldiers, that was evil, especially after they started using unwilling "volunteers." The anvil's continued existence is an ever-present temptation do start the evil anew (as it is the "easy" way to do things). Caridin basically says that in one branch of his conversation.

[Hyper Cutter]

While it's at least somewhat defensible to use volunteers to make golems, no ruler will be satisfied with that. They'll do exactly what Caridin describes the king of his time doing ("volunteering" castless, political enemies, and the like). In fact, I believe at least one of the "kept anvil" endings describes exactly this situation.

[Maria Caliban]

1. It's a form of blood magic.

2. If you destroy the anvil, you see they still create a golem, and it goes on an insane killing rampage. That doesn't suggest that it leaves the mind and soul undamaged.

[FullmetalHeart20]

Kepha wrote...

Even assuming that everyone truly is a volunteer, apparently being made into a golem is a very painful process for the "volunteer" in question.

From Caridin's Journal Codex Entry

I have asked for volunteers. Some few answered, men of the Warrior Caste, younger sons with no property, no chance for marriage. They want to defend Orzammar from the horrors these humans have unleashed. They want to live forever in a body stronger than the finest armor. They do not ask to speak with those who have gone before.

I have put off saying this, even in these pages. But I must say it now. My golems will be powered by their deaths. These brave warriors come to me, naked as the day they were born. I dress them in a skin of armor, so large it makes the burliest look no more than a babe, the anvil their first and final cradle. We are surrounded by a mile of earth on all sides. No one hears the screams as I pour molten lyrium through the eyeholes, the mouth, every joint and ****** in the armor. They silence quickly, but the smell lingers, just a trace of blood in the greater stench of hot metal. I must work fast. The armor is malleable now, as I shape it with hammer and tongs.

It is not long before it moves beneath my hands, writhing and twisting with every blow. It speaks again now, a low moan, but I have learned to tune it out. I can afford no error in this craft. There can be no melted slag blinding the eyes, nor an unhewn bit of granite shackling the leg. They groan at my work, but would they rather be broken, crippled? Those I have spoken to tell me of the pain, but could they see themselves, they would see perfection.

That doesn't sound too bad. It's kinda like childbirth.
If there was any problem, it'd be their ultimate fate. It seems when a golem 'dies', it's soul is drawn to the anvil. Yah...sounds fun.

Modifié par FullmetalHeart20, 22 janvier 2013 - 08:26 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

FullmetalHeart20 wrote...

Kepha wrote...

Even assuming that everyone truly is a volunteer, apparently being made into a golem is a very painful process for the "volunteer" in question.

From Caridin's Journal Codex Entry

I have asked for volunteers. Some few answered, men of the Warrior Caste, younger sons with no property, no chance for marriage. They want to defend Orzammar from the horrors these humans have unleashed. They want to live forever in a body stronger than the finest armor. They do not ask to speak with those who have gone before.

I have put off saying this, even in these pages. But I must say it now. My golems will be powered by their deaths. These brave warriors come to me, naked as the day they were born. I dress them in a skin of armor, so large it makes the burliest look no more than a babe, the anvil their first and final cradle. We are surrounded by a mile of earth on all sides. No one hears the screams as I pour molten lyrium through the eyeholes, the mouth, every joint and ****** in the armor. They silence quickly, but the smell lingers, just a trace of blood in the greater stench of hot metal. I must work fast. The armor is malleable now, as I shape it with hammer and tongs.

It is not long before it moves beneath my hands, writhing and twisting with every blow. It speaks again now, a low moan, but I have learned to tune it out. I can afford no error in this craft. There can be no melted slag blinding the eyes, nor an unhewn bit of granite shackling the leg. They groan at my work, but would they rather be broken, crippled? Those I have spoken to tell me of the pain, but could they see themselves, they would see perfection.

That doesn't sound too bad. It's kinda like childbirth.
If there was any problem, it'd be their ultimate fate. It seems when a golem 'dies', it's soul is drawn to the anvil. Yah...sounds fun.

Childbirth is comparable to having molten metal poured on you? It's a good thing I'm a man, then.

[TEWR]

It's not evil.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Childbirth is comparable to having molten metal poured on you? It's a good thing I'm a man, then.

I lol'd. Same here.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 janvier 2013 - 02:49 .

[Lord of War]

Indeed. Restoring the Dwarven race is a worthy goal, and the sacrifice seems pretty small when one looks at the big picture.

[draken-heart]

for anyone else arguing over this (even though this is mega old, so necro time) Think like a Grey Warden:

Is it worth it to defeat the Darkspawn?