61 réponses à ce sujet

[Racca12]

I don't think that's actually a 'plothole'. Because something isn't explained, it doesn't make it a 'plothole'. The fact that people can speculate how he got out of the tower is exactly what was aimed for. The authors did not in fact feel seeing how he escaped was important to your character's story, only that he did.



This kind of thing happens in movies all the time, albeit in more minor perhaps mundane circumstances. Two people are talking and they're like, "I'm hungry" and then in the next scene they're sitting at Mc'donald's already eating a Big Mac.



But how did they get there? Did they take a car? Whose care did they take? Did they take public transportation? Did they use a credit card to pay for their food, or cash? Was there traffic on the way to Mc'Donalds?



All those, although mundane details, are the exact things you are mincing as plot holes, and frankly, or not plotholes, but unnecessary to the plot itself.

[VenomStriker]

Hahren wrote...
Going with that mindset it also helps to plug
the plot hole in how little time it takes for Jowan to infiltrate
Redcliffe, and poison Eamon.

He only manages to infiltrate
so easily because Isobela asked Loghain for help and he sent her Jowan,
of whom he ordered to poison Eamon.

I forget exactly how Jowan became entangled up with Loghain though...

Racca12 wrote...



I don't think that's actually a
'plothole'. Because something isn't explained, it doesn't make it a
'plothole'. The fact that people can speculate how he got out of the
tower is exactly what was aimed for. The authors did not in fact feel
seeing how he escaped was important to your character's story, only
that he did.



This kind of thing happens in movies all the
time, albeit in more minor perhaps mundane circumstances. Two people
are talking and they're like, "I'm hungry" and then in the next scene
they're sitting at Mc'donald's already eating a Big Mac.



But
how did they get there? Did they take a car? Whose care did they take?
Did they take public transportation? Did they use a credit card to pay
for their food, or cash? Was there traffic on the way to Mc'Donalds?



All
those, although mundane details, are the exact things you are mincing
as plot holes, and frankly, or not plotholes, but unnecessary to the
plot itself.

I don't believe this to be correct at all, because Jowans escape cannot
simply be compared to "lets go get food" then appearing at an eatery of
some sort.

Jowan is locked inside the Circle Tower, surrounded
by Templars and blood mage hating mages, covered in blood with a hole
in his hand and on the run. He cannot open the door, he cannot jump out
the only other exit which is a window on the higher up levels of the
tower, nor can he cross the lake without getting too and stealing the
boat from the ferryman, and he cannot fight his way through an army of
Templars and blood mage hating mages.

Don't forget, just because
we don't see NPCs for the however many Templars/Mages are in the tower,
doesn't mean they are not there (eg. all the mages/abominations that
magically appear in the tower, but there were not that many NPCs in the
tower during ones origin story, etc).

Not to mention how weak
Jowan is (sure he caught 5 people by surprise with a knockdown blood
mage spell and ran off, but he barely injured them since they got right
back up and didn't complain of injury at all, or show any sign of
injury either), plus he got caught by the redcliffe guards, of whom are
nothing compared to templars against mages.

There's more here
than simply not having something explained clearly... if Jowan could
not escape than Jowan could not be in redcliffe, and there's much more
evidence to support Jowan could not have escaped than there is that he
could escape.

Not to mention the ferryman never mentions Jowan
either, surely being abducted by a blood mage would be an interesting
story to tell one such as we when asked of recent happenings, yes?

I
like the idea of him getting help from Uldred though, it ties together
nicely with him falling into Loghains hands, though I think Jowan tells
a story of how he fell in with Loghain that doesn't match up too well
with this thought (I don't remember). [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]

[Tirigon]

Come on, a bunch of f*cking bloodmages could invade Heaven and fight the Maker himself!!! How hard can it be to get out of an ugly tower?! Even a looser like Iowan can do that.

The only reason the templars can keep the mages under control at all is that there are such idiots like Irving, who allows being questioned and obviously killed by the templars, if you agree with Cullen that you cant let a bloodmage get away...., or that mage who wants to die because she considers magic a punishment by the Maker. If it wasnt for those, the mages could easily get rid of the templars.

[eltonjesus]

we don't really know how long they were knocked out, and we also don't know if the other guards and mages knew. Had none of the remaining guards and mages known he could have simply walked out

[Theramond]

Oops, double post.

Modifié par Theramond, 01 janvier 2010 - 08:32 .

[Theramond]

Maybe he... Used blood control? I mean with blood control you can make the guy row the boat for you... Or maybe he knocked out a templar, and put on his suit?

Modifié par Theramond, 01 janvier 2010 - 08:34 .

[vortex590]

I see no reason that he couldn't have just walked out the front door. Why would the templars care if a mage leaves the tower? If he's gone rogue they can just use his phylactery to hunt him down. Everyone that knew about him being a blood mage were unconcious on the floor so noone else had any reason at all to stop him.

[Rovay]

Theramond wrote...

Or maybe he knocked out a templar, and put on his suit?

Somehow i doubt that he had the strength requirement... Not to mention the Templar specialization.

[Tirigon]

Rovay wrote...

Theramond wrote...

Or maybe he knocked out a templar, and put on his suit?

Somehow i doubt that he had the strength requirement... Not to mention the Templar specialization.

Maybe he is an Arcane Warrior, that would give him the required strength, and he could have used metagame items to get the templar spec? Or maybe he just dled some cheatmod that gave him +1413313415 all attributes and 1hitted everyone?

[Theramond]

vortex590 wrote...

I see no reason that he couldn't have just walked out the front door. Why would the templars care if a mage leaves the tower? If he's gone rogue they can just use his phylactery to hunt him down. Everyone that knew about him being a blood mage were unconcious on the floor so noone else had any reason at all to stop him.

I don't think apprentices are just let out of the tower unless if their is a special occasion...

Tirigon wrote...

Maybe
he is an Arcane Warrior, that would give him the required strength, and
he could have used metagame items to get the templar spec? Or maybe he
just dled some cheatmod that gave him +1413313415 all attributes and
1hitted everyone?

Maybe he is... Sandal!!!

Modifié par Theramond, 01 janvier 2010 - 08:51 .

[SusanStoHelit]

I don't think getting out the the tower would be a problem. The fact that so many people have come up with so many feasible and not so feasible answers indicates that there could be a way. The most likely solutions at first appear to be that he is really powerful but hides it well - or he had help from Uldred's faction.



The problem is how that links up with later events.



If he is really powerful here, how can ONE templar capture him, how can he be kept in the Redcliffe dungeon and tortured (there are NO templars here, or mages either), and if you use him to enter the Fade and kill the demon there by means of the mages/lyrium then why is he weak? All this seems to rule out the powerful but hiding it/lying hypothesis.



This leaves us with Uldred's cabal of blood mages getting him out. But if this is so, why didn't he just go to them for help with escaping, instead of coming to me?

[Tirigon]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

I don't think getting out the the tower would be a problem. The fact that so many people have come up with so many feasible and not so feasible answers indicates that there could be a way. The most likely solutions at first appear to be that he is really powerful but hides it well - or he had help from Uldred's faction.

The problem is how that links up with later events.

If he is really powerful here, how can ONE templar capture him, how can he be kept in the Redcliffe dungeon and tortured (there are NO templars here, or mages either), and if you use him to enter the Fade and kill the demon there by means of the mages/lyrium then why is he weak? All this seems to rule out the powerful but hiding it/lying hypothesis.

This leaves us with Uldred's cabal of blood mages getting him out. But if this is so, why didn't he just go to them for help with escaping, instead of coming to me?

It´s the Sten syndrome. He felt guilty and let himself get caught therefore. Didn´t you notice what a whiny sucker he is? And when you play him in the Fade he is weak as hell because if he was powerful people would complain in lines like:
"I´m a bloodmage too, and I was always more talented than him, why am I weaker? Bioware is guilty! BAAAAD Bioware!" Noone wants that to happen. There is enough whine here already.